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More WM Questions

larry_WM

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How long have you been an owner?

I have been an owner since 1993 and in my opinion customer service declined considerable starting shortly after Cendant puechased TrendWest.


Since 1991. What customer service are you talking about? You can't compare a booking system with 1000 members to 250,000 members. In 2000 there was less than 500 members log on Delphi System BBS. I don't know how many owners used computer to book a vacation at that time. Now, I think almost everyone use computer to plan for their vacation, if someone doesn't they will put the account on sale soon.
 

cruisin

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I do not want to put words into melschey's mouth, but I think she meant the kind where the customer is served.
 

larry_WM

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I do not want to put words into melschey's mouth, but I think she meant the kind where the customer is served.


it's too vague. Compare before and after Cendent taking over, what's the difference?
 

melschey

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it's too vague. Compare before and after Cendent taking over, what's the difference?


I asked how long you have been an owner.

It apears you haven't been an owner very long or you wouldn't have to ask. Problems per-Cendant used to be solved with one phone call now it seems they sometimes they never get fixed. Charges come out of nowhere and and often they can't even explain them. IRIS has been a disaster.
 

SleepinIn

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it's too vague. Compare before and after Cendent taking over, what's the difference?
How about things like the "Book it" button disappearing with no warning? In one case that I know of, the owner actually had a credit balance (in case you don't know what that is, Wyndham owed HIM money, not the other way around) and his button disappeared.

In another case, Wyndham failed to withdraw the funds from an automatic payment setup, and again, penalized the owner.

Some who have combined accounts have had credits taken back almost a year later, after 3 weeks of audits on the accounts during the combine.

I have the previous owner's name on my account and have attempted to have it removed 5 TIMES over the last year. I have also had money stolen from me via their reservation system. It failed to charge me for housekeeping for some reason, and when I made a bonus time reservation, they added the housekeeping amount to that reservation. Later, I canceled those reservations and they never refunded over $ 300 of fees!

None of these things should be happening. Pre-Cendant, they would be resolved. Under Wyndham, they may never be resolved. If it doesn't increase their bottom line, they just don't care.

As far as PA goes, nobody wants to listen to you any more. We all get that you don't like him, don't trust him, whatever. WE DON'T CARE!
 

larry_WM

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How about things like the "Book it" button disappearing with no warning? In one case that I know of, the owner actually had a credit balance (in case you don't know what that is, Wyndham owed HIM money, not the other way around) and his button disappeared.

In another case, Wyndham failed to withdraw the funds from an automatic payment setup, and again, penalized the owner.

Some who have combined accounts have had credits taken back almost a year later, after 3 weeks of audits on the accounts during the combine.

I have the previous owner's name on my account and have attempted to have it removed 5 TIMES over the last year. I have also had money stolen from me via their reservation system. It failed to charge me for housekeeping for some reason, and when I made a bonus time reservation, they added the housekeeping amount to that reservation. Later, I canceled those reservations and they never refunded over $ 300 of fees!

None of these things should be happening. Pre-Cendant, they would be resolved. Under Wyndham, they may never be resolved. If it doesn't increase their bottom line, they just don't care.

As far as PA goes, nobody wants to listen to you any more. We all get that you don't like him, don't trust him, whatever. WE DON'T CARE!

Yes, I read all above accusations before from wmowners.com
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11548
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13467
I wonder if they are true or not. It never happens to me. Some accusation in that BBS is very ridiculous too. Such as a doctor who left his baby with a nany at the resort and don't know how to call her then he blame on the Wyndham . A big company with 250,000 members can't satisfy everyone. Those few dozen owners are the loudest whinner I'd ever experienced. No opinion, now I know you just echoing the other BBS, nothing new in your post indeed.
 
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PerryM

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Just what is the definition of Relative Use?

Relative Usage 201

One of the major problems with Relative Usage is that it is NOT defined in the founding documents of WM – I mean down to the last nut and bolt of how it should work. I don’t have the definition in front of me but I remember it to be 1 or 2 sentences long – the devil is always in the details.

Relative Usage is basically this:
I bought a condo 10 years ago for $100k and rent it out to folks. Now my neighbor decides he wants to buy a condo and we exchange usage – I use a week at his place and he uses a week at my place. His new condo cost him $125k.

Is this a good deal for me?

Well there is NO way to determine if it is a good deal from the information above – we need to do something that no one at WM has ever asked for – an appraisal of the 2 units. Let’s say that my condo now appraises for $155k and his appraises out to $120k.

It’s a bad deal for me.

This is so easy to determine IF we know the appraised value of BOTH units. Since WorldMark has never bothered to find out what the average WM condo is worth then Wyndham can guess any price it wants. This is NOT the fault of Wyndham but the WM BOD. Incidentally NO WM BOD candidate has asked for this appraisal as far as I know. (I mean as a campaign pledge that it will be done if elected)

Without this simple piece of information (average appraised WM condo) it is a waste of time arguing about Relative Usage – we are all guessing.

Since Wyndham has no idea what to shoot for they just made the assumption that their unit, the brand new one, is worth a whole lot more than the 20 year old WM units out there. With this assumption they started to ask for 12,000 WM credits to 18,000+ for a 2BR Red week. This is a perfectly acceptable way to handle this problem of new condos being built yet selling a basket of old old condos to the public.

Conclusion:
Relative Use in WM has never been defined to the point it can withstand a court challenge – 10 folks can read those 2 sentences and come up with 10 different definitions. Wyndham is perfectly correct to then use it’s own definition and continue business.

And when you look at the problem of “New condo sold in basket of 5,000 old condos” the only solution is to ask more then 10,000 WM credits per Red week for a 2BR. Wyndham is offering a "Work around" by allowing owners to rent usage from other owners in unlimited quantities.

As a Marriott owner I'd die for the ability to rent usage from another Marriott owner and get their week in my account - I can't do that. In Marriott I must buy a week from them or resale but can't rent usage.

I restate my argument - Relative Usage is not defined sufficiently for the developer, Wyndham today, to run their business with and the interpretation we commonly use is all wrong for how WM functions now.


perry: how would you handle/get an Oregon coastal WM with oceanview for a July or August week in 2009 if you were heading up to Canada later and needed some of your points for WM there?


I'm sorry I just can't answer that quesiton.
 
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PerryM

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Just pointing out that it's "relative use value"...not relative value.


It still boils down to value (Money) - is a $300k new condo worth more than the average WM condo (5,000 of them)? We don't have a clue.

The appraised value of a condo is ALL the information needed to determine if two condos are close to being equal in usage by their price.

If not money as a yard stick - what?
 

SleepinIn

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Yes, I read all above accusations before from wmowners.com
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11548
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13467
I wonder if they are true or not. It never happens to me. Some accusation in that BBS is very ridiculous too. Such as a doctor who left his baby with a nany at the resort and don't know how to call her then he blame on the Wyndham . A big company with 250,000 members can't satisfy everyone. Those few dozen owners are the loudest whinner I'd ever experienced. No opinion, now I know you just echoing the other BBS, nothing new in your post indeed.
So are you calling me a liar? Some of this happened to ME. If you say it isn't so, then you're calling me a liar.
 

SleepinIn

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. . .Relative Usage is basically this:
I bought a condo 10 years ago for $100k and rent it out to folks. Now my neighbor decides he wants to buy a condo and we exchange usage – I use a week at his place and he uses a week at my place. His new condo cost him $125k.

Is this a good deal for me?

Well there is NO way to determine if it is a good deal from the information above – we need to do something that no one at WM has ever asked for – an appraisal of the 2 units. Let’s say that my condo now appraises for $155k and his appraises out to $120k.

It’s a bad deal for me.
Let's look at it another way. Similar situation, but I bought my house for $ 500,000 10 years ago, my friend in another state bought his for $ 1,000,000 just last month. Both houses appraise for $ 1,000,000. Let's say we decide to exchange usage. It would be fair to exchange at a 1-1 rate, right? Both houses are worth the same. But, my friend thinks that because he paid twice as much he should get 2-1 in the exchange. Sure doesn't seem fair, does it? This is exactly what Wyndham is doing.

Let's also look at Marriott. If I bought a Platinum week at Marriott Summit Ridge in 1997 for $ 20,000 is it worth any less than a current $ 40,000 Platinum week at the same resort? No. How does Marriott make their money when the cost of real estate and building keeps going up? They charge more. Duh. Just what Wyndham isn't doing.

I know that you know this, but for others, it may be a fresh look.
 

FLYNZ4

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Yes, I read all above accusations before from wmowners.com
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11548
http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13467
I wonder if they are true or not.
Call Wyndham's "Voice of the Customer" department and ask for Summerfield Horner. His direct line is 702-227-3264. He will be back in the office on Tuesday. He as been assigned by Wyn Directors and Vice Presidents to personally fix my account.

Ask him to verify if I lost my "book-it" button when I actually had money due to me. Then ask him to verify if I also lost my "book-it" button when WYN failed to charge an automatic payment. Finally... ask him to verify if I am simply trying to get my own account fixed, or if I am additionally acting as an owner advocate by escalating this issue to executive management in multiple Wyn departments and divisions... with the express purpose of preventing other Worldmark owners from experiencing this same mis-treatment.

I do not appreciate you challenging my impeccable credibility.

/Jim
 
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larry_WM

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So are you calling me a liar? Some of this happened to ME. If you say it isn't so, then you're calling me a liar.

Noone is calling you a liar. I just said it never happens to me. If it happens to someone there should be a reason, I don't know. It's not my problem. I have been WM owner for 17years I I haven't have any serious problem. I have a telephone and I computer, I would email or call them if i have problem.
 

larry_WM

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Call Wyndham's "Voice of the Customer" department and ask for Summerfield Horner. His direct line is 702-227-3264. He will be back in the office on Tuesday. He as been assigned by Wyn Directors and Vice Presidents to personally fix my account.

Ask him to verify if I lost my "book-it" button when I actually had money due to me. Then ask him to verify if I also lost my "book-it" button when WYN failed to charge an automatic payment. Finally... ask him to verify if I am simply trying to get my own account fixed, or if I am additionally acting as an owner advocate by escalating this issue to executive management in multiple Wyn departments and divisions... with the express purpose of preventing other Worldmark owners from experiencing this same mis-treatment.

I do not appreciate you challenging my impeccable credibility.

/Jim

I know you have problem, I don't. Problems happen to everyone even to The President of USA. Did wyndham try to fix them? Yes. I don't think they dare to ignore a value customer like you who have the biggest account I'd ever know. I don't think they dare to ignore someone who has the ability to call any BOD anytime. I wonder if out of 250,000 members, how many owners have that problem and have such attention to have someone "assigned by Wyn Directors and Vice Presidents to personally fix" your account. I would say that a dream customer service !
 

PerryM

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The real Relative Usage defined....

Let's look at it another way. Similar situation, but I bought my house for $ 500,000 10 years ago, my friend in another state bought his for $ 1,000,000 just last month. Both houses appraise for $ 1,000,000. Let's say we decide to exchange usage. It would be fair to exchange at a 1-1 rate, right? Both houses are worth the same. But, my friend thinks that because he paid twice as much he should get 2-1 in the exchange. Sure doesn't seem fair, does it? This is exactly what Wyndham is doing.

Let's also look at Marriott. If I bought a Platinum week at Marriott Summit Ridge in 1997 for $ 20,000 is it worth any less than a current $ 40,000 Platinum week at the same resort? No. How does Marriott make their money when the cost of real estate and building keeps going up? They charge more. Duh. Just what Wyndham isn't doing.

I know that you know this, but for others, it may be a fresh look.


Relative Usage demands that the NEW condo be worth EXACTLY the same as the AVERAGE of the existing 5,000 condos - that's very hard to do. What then?

(I'm going to make up numbers since no audits have ever been done at WM. This has math in it and I will summarize my findings at the end)

The average WM 2BR condo appraises out to $225k and Wyndham builds/buys a condo in an area that a comparable condo costs $300k - what to do?

We need more information - the average $225k WM 2BR condo generates 350,000 WM credits during the year and the new condo generates 300,000 WM credits - how do we compare this? Simple:

We must break down the above to cost per WM credit generated:

Existing average 2BR WM condo:
$225,000/350,000 WM credits = 64¢ per WM credit
Basically the 10,000 WM credits needed in a Red week appraise out to $6,400.

New Wyndham condo:
$300,000/300,000 = $1.00 per WM credit
10,000 WM credits in a Red Week appraise out to $10,000.

The new condo is worth a lot more than the average WM condo so we now simply adjust the number of WM credits needed to stay 1 week in Red season. Instead of 10,000 WM credits per 2BR Red week Wyndham is demanding $10,000/$6,400 * 10,000 = 15,625 WM credits or round to 16,000.

Conclusion:
In the above example Wyndham is going to demand that 16,000 WM credits be spent by WM owners to stay 1 week at the new 2BR Red week unit. This IS the very definition of Relative Usage and Wyndham is correct to demand more credits.

All this is so simple if we just demand appraisals of existing WM condos – something only I have proposed over the years. Without this information we must defer to Wyndham’s answer.

You can't have it both ways guys - demand 10,000 WM credits when you have NO evidence that this is the correct answer - it's not.

P.S.
This is the kind of detail that the founders of WM left out of the documents – what the heck Relative Usage is and how the heck to calculate it. Without this fundamental definition Wyndham is correct to leave you guys in the dust and use their own. Our founders were a bunch of window salesmen - and this is exactly the mess one would expect from them.

This is the FIRST piece of business the WM BOD must address – get the definitions of WM in writing - down to the very math.

Anyone running around crying “Relative Use” violation have nothing to base your claims on – nothing.

And of course a WM CEO and a management team should be doing all of this and not 5 BOD members who meet once in a while and who’s toughest decision is “Chicken or beef for lunch?”.
 
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Judy

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Besides, regardless of the trend in real estate prices and credit values for new WM resorts, WorldMark owners can still make 10K trades for red season 2BR's via RCI and II and some of those trades are most likely into resorts just as new as some of the inflated WM resorts. So, in terms of a currency value for credits, 10K WM credits still equates to a red season 2BR throughout RCI and II.
How long do you think that's going to last? As the average credit values needed to book Worldmark resorts rises, the credit values needed to exchange through RCI and II will rise also. The cost of flexchange already went up.
II should not raise the cost of exchanges, since they're not getting the new resorts, but I think Worldmark would not want to give owners a more favorable exchange contract with II than with their sister company RCI.
 

BocaBum99

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I know you have problem, I don't. Problems happen to everyone even to The President of USA. Did wyndham try to fix them? Yes. I don't think they dare to ignore a value customer like you who have the biggest account I'd ever know. I don't think they dare to ignore someone who has the ability to call any BOD anytime. I wonder if out of 250,000 members, how many owners have that problem and have such attention to have someone "assigned by Wyn Directors and Vice Presidents to personally fix" your account. I would say that a dream customer service !


Larry,

You are hearby banned from my world.

In one minute, you will be "iggied"

Whenever you post, this is what I'll see:

This message is hidden because larry_WM is on your ignore list.

Goodbye and good riddance.
 
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SleepinIn

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I know you have problem, I don't. Problems happen to everyone even to The President of USA. Did wyndham try to fix them? Yes. I don't think they dare to ignore a value customer like you who have the biggest account I'd ever know. I don't think they dare to ignore someone who has the ability to call any BOD anytime. I wonder if out of 250,000 members, how many owners have that problem and have such attention to have someone "assigned by Wyn Directors and Vice Presidents to personally fix" your account. I would say that a dream customer service !
Dream? More like a nightmare. The problems aren't fixed, are they? Book-it buttons are still disappearing over real or imagined amounts owed to Wyndham, oftentimes amounts that can't be explained. No, hardly "dream customer service."
 

PerryM

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How long do you think that's going to last? As the average credit values needed to book Worldmark resorts rises, the credit values needed to exchange through RCI and II will rise also. The cost of flexchange already went up.
II should not raise the cost of exchanges, since they're not getting the new resorts, but I think Worldmark would not want to give owners a more favorable exchange contract with II than with their sister company RCI.

Don't forget RedWeek - I got a President's Week (Week 7) Marriott Maui Ocean Club 1BR by generating RedWeek Points with a WM exchange. I get to lock in a juicy week and I get do deposit that week into RedWeek for my usage. This is different than II or RCI where they get a basket of reservations and few are prime time.

From what I've seen there is a maximum usage of WM credits by simply finding out what RedWeek likes by submitting many bid requests.
 

LLW

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How long do you think that's going to last? As the average credit values needed to book Worldmark resorts rises, the credit values needed to exchange through RCI and II will rise also. The cost of flexchange already went up.
II should not raise the cost of exchanges, since they're not getting the new resorts, but I think Worldmark would not want to give owners a more favorable exchange contract with II than with their sister company RCI.

In fact, there is a report that the cost of Flexchange is going back down to 3000 credits January 1:

http://www.wmowners.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13817
 

spatenfloot

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Existing average 2BR WM condo:
$225,000/350,000 WM credits = 64¢ per WM credit
Basically the 10,000 WM credits needed in a Red week appraise out to $6,400.

New Wyndham condo:
$300,000/300,000 = $1.00 per WM credit
10,000 WM credits in a Red Week appraise out to $10,000.
Maybe you are using faulty assumptions. Would you say a hotel type unit in a bad neighborhood of San Diego with few amenities is worth more than an oceanfront 2BR top floor unit on the Oregon coast? By your logic, because the first unit is newer to WM and cost more credits, it must be much more valuable.
 

larry_WM

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Larry,

You are hearby banned from my world.

In one minute, you will be "iggied"

Whenever you post, this is what I'll see:

This message is hidden because larry_WM is on your ignore list.

Goodbye and good riddance.

Same here. I will do the same to your posts.
 
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larry_WM

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I am very glad that you too have concluded that the current BOD will stick it to us the maximum 5% every year (because they can). With this WORST case scenario, It is hard not to want change on the BOD. Even with the unknown of what might happen, it would be hard for an independent BOD to do WORSTER! :rofl:

For those who complain about 5% increase MF every year, read this Marriott thread

http://www.tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56948
 

FLYNZ4

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I know you have problem, I don't. Problems happen to everyone even to The President of USA.
In your note that I originally quoted... you did NOT say that you knew that I had a problem. In fact... you said the exact opposite... you said that you wondered if the reports were true or not.

I wonder if out of 250,000 members, how many owners have that problem and have such attention to have someone "assigned by Wyn Directors and Vice Presidents to personally fix" your account. I would say that a dream customer service !
I ran a poll on wmowners. It appears that 50% of owners have lost their book it button. Consider yourself lucky that you you won the coin toss. I have no idea what the margin of error is on my poll... but for sake of argument... it appears that somewhere in the order of 125,000 owners would have had this problem... without ever being notified until they are locked out of their account. I would not call that exceptional customer service

/Jim
 

PA-

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Larry,

You are hearby banned from my world.

In one minute, you will be "iggied"

Whenever you post, this is what I'll see:

This message is hidden because larry_WM is on your ignore list.

Goodbye and good riddance.


How do I join you? And does it work, even if the person you iggie uses a different user id? What is Iggie?
 
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