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future of MF & timashare

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verby

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With maintenance fees going up and up every year, can someone explain to me, whats the point of owning the timeshare?
With some of the resorts MF going for $2000 or even more, how can you justify buying one?
I'm sure for all those $$$ you can rent some nice place for a week.
... just my 2c...
 
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You are right. I think you meant $20,000, didn't you? More and more, people are finding renting makes more sense. No upfront expense. Can get a last minute bargain if your travel is flexible. Maybe you won't always be able to find the exact location for the exact week you want, but it may still be worth it to go the rental route, as even timeshare owners can't always get what they want.
 
(fixed my post)
I was referring to MF... but you're right, to buy timeshare you need some cash in advance.
I have a hard time with MF because even if MF is $1,000 per week per unit and lets say 25 (if not 50) owners, that's like $25,000 annually in mf... give me a break.
 
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Patri said:
Can get a last minute bargain if your travel is flexible. Maybe you won't always be able to find the exact location for the exact week you want, but it may still be worth it to go the rental route, as even timeshare owners can't always get what they want.
Click to expand...

If you want to travel during prime time at prime resorts, buying a timeshare can be a wise decision, because if you're look at rents under those situations it is very costly.

I bought my first Maui unit because I wanted to enjoy Pres week at the Maui Marriott. Rent for a 2BDRM for President week is $3200+, so it really did make sense to purchase.

Little did I know I would buy 8 more and develop a great rent/use model, that has brought my family great fun and value.

If you can travel short notice and don't care to travel during prime time , renting is probably better.

Although, if you can buy a cheap off season LO and split/use for 2 weeks, and possibly make good exchanges into shoulder season, buying under that scenerio can also make sense.
 
I'm thinking keeping II is a good option for the getaways. Must you own a timeshare to use II? Would buying something that trades with them be sensible?
 
MOXJO7282 said:
I bought my first Maui unit because I wanted to enjoy Pres week at the Maui Marriott. Rent for a 2BDRM for President week is $3200+, so it really did make sense to purchase.
Click to expand...

BUT the problem is with increasing MF. One thing to buy, but the other to pay annually MF. If you add all this up (purchse + MF) headache to exchange (if you have to) it doesn't seem such a deal after all.
 
for me, own TS & renting both make sense. If you can rent any resort/unit in prime season for an equal or less than MF, renting would be better. But if you have to pay higher than MF to rent a unit for certain season, owning TS makes sense (for many future years).
I like to own TS because I can book any week I want (I can use) without hassle and waiting in rental market. For certain resorts, I use them myself each year, so it makes sense to own there.
Some TS has great value for exchange (I can get the resort & week I want and total exchange cost is much less than MF).
Value of owning TS depends on how you use it.
 
If you buy from the developer and pay a high price for the week and the MFs are high at the unit, then maybe it is not wise to own. But if you bought resale like I did and the MF are not too high, it can be the right decision. I own 7 weeks of TS for a total purchase price of about $8800 or about $1250 for each week. When I total up my 7 MFs plus exchange fees and RCI membership divided by the number of nights used, I average about $80 a night, usually staying in 1BR units. Most of my trips are to very nice resorts in the Caribbean, Sarasota or to NYC. A lot depends on where/when you travel. Frankly I can't beat those prices by renting. Most of the places I go to would rent for more than double what I am paying as an owner. The NY unit rents for over 3 times my cost. So I am a very happy TS owner.
 
Right now it may not make a lot of sense, but when the economy is better it might. Hotels are pretty cheap right now, I just got back from Niagara Falls, Ontario and stayed in a beautiful suite with a million dollar view for only about $150 a night. I think when the economy is stronger, this room would cost a lot more.
 
I own high season when availability is low and prices are high at places where I like to go year after year, without TS it would not be possible. I bought my first week and then found TUG so my average cost is low and I think that I could sell out and at worst break even.

So, yes it has worked out for me.
 
What has really changed the dynamics has been RCI's massive rental to the public program. It has gutted the ownership / exchange model. Smat HOA's need to be concentrating on selling HOA inventory to own-to-use people and on mingrating their exchangers away from the highly destructive RCI to other exchange outlets.

Before the RCI rental program, one had to own to participate in the timeshare system. Not anymore, thanks to RCI. One can get better deals by renting. RCI trashed the exclusivity element on which the ownership / exchange model was built. The exclusivity element made off season weeks more valuable and was thus a critical part of the resort business model. RCI stabbed it resort affiliates in the back when they went massively to rentals.

Rentals are hurting exchanging as there is less to exchange into as RCI shifts inventory from exchanges into its rental pool, like the recent ''enhancements''.

RCI rentals are hurting the rental market for individual t/s owners wanting to rent out their own units because RCI's flooding the market with cheap rentals has driven prices down for other renters. For HOA's which rent, this has been yet another way that RCI has stabbed them in the back because it has meant lower rental prices and more competition for them.

As timeshare becomes less valuable for exchange purposes and rentals cheaper, all accomplished artificially by diverting exchange inventory into rentals, resale prices also fall.

RCI has really done a number on timesharing with its rental to the public program.
 
With maintenance fees going up and up every year why Buy!

Verby said: With maintenance fees going up and up every year, can someone explain to me, whats the point of owning the timeshare?
With some of the resorts MF going for $2000 or even more, how can you justify buying one? I'm sure for all those $$$ you can rent some nice place for a week. ... just my 2c...
Click to expand...

Had I never bought my first two timeshares their would have been roughly 30 or 40 great vacations that I would never have experienced with just my wife, or with my wife and kids, or with my wife, my kids and my grand kids.

Why you say? Because I am TIGHT! Also, because I would not have been forced to plan ahead. Then too LIFE or WORK would have gotten in my way and given me a great excuse to say no to a Vacation many of those years.

Think about it, if you are an average individual as opposed to extremely wealthy. Would you from the time you were age 30 to age 65 have spent the $1,000, $2,000 or whatever to rent a nice 2 BR CONDO at great locations all over the country if not the World year in and year out no matter what?

We simply would not have taken near as many NICE vacations and definitely would NOT have consistently vacationed in 2 BR or 3 BR condos every time.

Also, before I forget, I have also used my VIP at Barrier Island Station where my entire brood spent many Thanksgiving Weeks in a Family Gathering. That place has two full Kithches and comfortably sleeps 14 people. It is literally a Three Story House on the Outerbanks of NC.

Yes, I can see where folks can get great deals at Myrtle Beach, SC in Prime Time on short notice. But, what will they get? A cramped Hotel Room for $500 to $3,000 depending on Quality. Given that the area is overbuilt maybe they will get lucky and get a 2 BR condo on the Beach for $2,000 to $3,000. But all it currently costs me is $504.67 plus a $164 trade fee paid to RCI if I trade one of my RED Weeks that I paid for 20 years ago.

Maybe the non-timeshare owner can get two weeks in Florida in February and March at Beach Front property with at least 2 BRS for $3,000 to $4,000.

For me it makes sense to trade using my long ago paid for RED WEEKS at $504.67 per week plus the current $164 trading fee paid to RCI.

Better still I could use one or both of my Blue Weeks where my maintenance fees for the two weeks together have run from $245 for both in 1989 to $505 for both weeks in 2009. (What I own is a BLUE Lock-out for which I pay one maintenance fee and trade them as two separate deposits with RCI.)

Oh! I forgot I also have to pay $169 twice to RCI for those two PRIME weeks on the BEACH in Florida. A WHOPPING $843 for two solid weeks at a Gold Crown Resort like The Resort at Coca Beach.

I am not kidding folks. Just tonight I reserved Week 49 and Week 50 in a two Bedroom Condo on the Beach at The Resort @ Cocoa Beach, FL for what I just described - $849. Opps! Meant $843.

I just love this TIMESHARE CONCEPT! I Love it so much that now that I am 65 and can travel more freely I just added 469,000 Wyndham Points to my portifolio. WATCH OUT WE ARE STILL HAVING FUN! :whoopie:
 
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My total MF for approximately 10 weeks (depending on dates & accommodations) comes out to less than $75 a night, which includes DVC and week 52 in Vail. MF's could double and I'd still be saving money.
 
Think Europe

I pay about $3400 in maintenace fees to DRI for my points. When I think at how many weeks I can stay in Europe which is at a minimum of 5 weeks in a one bedroom and a more if I did studios or used flex, i am making out like a bandit because I am spending money in dollars and not pounds or euros. Renters don't get flex or the luxury of planning in advance for full condo units.

If I were renting a unit to them in England, I would be comparing prices in pounds for the use of the resort not dollars. Being smart with your purchase is key.
 
For me, owning a timeshare is only worth it if you plan to use it every year for yourself. That's why I initially bought one in HHI. When it became evident that I wanted more time in HHI, I bought a condo. Then, I never used the timeshare, not even for exchanges. So, I had to rent it out every year, which yielded me about $300 over the maintenance fee, but was a hassle. I finally sold. Now I will rent a TS when I want to travel for a week at a time.

I think owning or renting is contingent on your individual lifestyle and needs. I have friends in the points system and they use their points for hotels all the time and get great deals when traveling. Gotta weigh the pros and cons for you.
 
Zac495 said:
I'm thinking keeping II is a good option for the getaways. Must you own a timeshare to use II? Would buying something that trades with them be sensible?
Click to expand...

You must own a timeshare or have owned one to be in II. If you own a timeshare affiliated with II you can get II membership, if you sell your timeshare and never tell II and keep paying the annual fee to II then you can still use them. If the resort or you ever tell them you don't own any more then you can no longer be in II.
 
csalter2 said:
I pay about $3400 in maintenace fees to DRI for my points. When I think at how many weeks I can stay in Europe which is at a minimum of 5 weeks in a one bedroom and a more if I did studios or used flex, i am making out like a bandit because I am spending money in dollars and not pounds or euros. Renters don't get flex or the luxury of planning in advance for full condo units.

If I were renting a unit to them in England, I would be comparing prices in pounds for the use of the resort not dollars. Being smart with your purchase is key.
Click to expand...

Well, you might want to think about this thread from the European site TimeshareTalk, if you thinking owning rather than renting DRI is a good deal for Europe:

www.timesharetalk.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11235

DRI's rental policies, just like RCI's, are causing owner pushback over the end of exclusivity in timesharing. The last post speaks especially to the loss of exclusivity.
 
verby said:
(fixed my post)
I was referring to MF... but you're right, to buy timeshare you need some cash in advance.
I have a hard time with MF because even if MF is $1,000 per week per unit and lets say 25 (if not 50) owners, that's like $25,000 annually in mf... give me a break.
Click to expand...

Have you ever looked at the budget for a resort, to see how those fees break down?

Remember, they cover everything you would be paying if you owned a condo that you rented out on a weekly basis - everything from cleaning and supplies, linens, periodic replacement of furniture, resort management... Yes, some resorts cost more than they should, but most resorts that have sold out, and are managed by an HOA of individual owners do a pretty good job of balancing cost with needs.

As others have noted, whether owning timeshare makes sense depends on how you use it - it is not for everybody. But owning beachfront property isn't for everybody either. Right now, rentals are readily available for many places, but the best places in the top seasons are still not available as a cheap rental. And when you compare timeshare with anything other than a condo rental, you have to consider what DOESN"T come with your package. With 3 children, I like at least 2 sleeping areas, and wouldn't consider a weeklong vacation without a kitchen - not just in terms of cost-saving, but convenience. I also want something with convenient (preferably in-room) laudry facilities, because the airlines charge for luggage now. I don't mind doing laundry mid-week, particularly if it can cut 2 or 3 pieces of luggage, which translates to as much as $150 savings per trip.
 
verby said:
With maintenance fees going up and up every year, can someone explain to me, whats the point of owning the timeshare?
With some of the resorts MF going for $2000 or even more, how can you justify buying one?
I'm sure for all those $$$ you can rent some nice place for a week.
... just my 2c...
Click to expand...

I think the $ break down differently for each individual and their vacation needs. We have used our Vistana Villages timeshare to go to Harborside. Our trip last year was through Starwood so no exchange fee but our trip this year is an II exchange into a 2 bedroom lockout. Total cost for 2 weeks at Harborside is under $2100. If you can find me any accomodation for a family of 6 in Nassau for close to that price I would love to know about it. Booking those 2 weeks at Harborside at Atlantisfamilyfun would likely have cost apx. $8,000.
 
I am really glad to see this thread and all the input.I brought up this topic several years ago on a different site long before any of todays money problems. I saw the constant increases and the use of SAs and began to see no end site. I wondered then what was the use to keep up this whole idea of sharing time with all the costs. I sold to get out of it. Responders on that site said I was stupid and I did not know what I was talking about. It is good to see smart people here talking about the very same thing and calling no one stupid. This site seems much user friendly, a cut above the rest. Thanks.
 
1950bing said:
I am really glad to see this thread and all the input.I brought up this topic several years ago on a different site long before any of todays money problems. I saw the constant increases and the use of SAs and began to see no end site. I wondered then what was the use to keep up this whole idea of sharing time with all the costs. I sold to get out of it. Responders on that site said I was stupid and I did not know what I was talking about. It is good to see smart people here talking about the very same thing and calling no one stupid. This site seems much user friendly, a cut above the rest. Thanks.
Click to expand...

The original timeshare concept is a solid one, even the ownership / exchange model. The problem is that RCI distorted the market with its massive rentals to the general public from the spacebank policies. That led to flooding the rental market depressing prices, degrading the exchange system, and as a result depressing the already weak resale market. That makes it a whole new ballgame, and not good for the industry.
 
Carolinian said:
The original timeshare concept is a solid one, even the ownership / exchange model. The problem is that RCI distorted the market with its massive rentals to the general public from the spacebank policies. That led to flooding the rental market depressing prices, degrading the exchange system, and as a result depressing the already weak resale market. That makes it a whole new ballgame, and not good for the industry.
Click to expand...

This is 100% false. You assert the tanking of the resalee market is due to RCI's rental policies. That couldn't be more wrong.

The tanking of the resale market is due to the supply and demand imbalance caused by the dual effect of the reduced tour volume from resort developers and the significantly increased resale supply created by PCCs dumping inventory on eBay.

If RCI did NOT have a rental program, the exact same thing would be true of the resale market. It would be in the toilet.
 
Now this is getting to be a great thread. Carolinan made a good point regarding the fact that the originial timeshare concept is a good one but, instead of saying "including the ownership / exchange model" I would say because of the ownership / exchange model.

Correct me if I am wrong the ownership / exchange model originally was set up for the benefit of Developers who then could get people to buy in to the concept of "TIMESHARE" and "EXCLUSIVELY" and be able to EXCHANGE with other Owners throughout the World. The Exclusive Entry Fee included making the initial purchase from a DEVELOPER (Somebody had to be first!), and because of that ownership the owner received the right to become a member of an EXCLUSIVE group like RCI or II for an ANNUAL FEE. Not only was On-going Membership a requirement and Ownership a requirement, fees are required to make an Exchange. (All as it should be!)

But then RCI decided in 2002 to create a NEW revenue stream to enance the profits to it's stockholders. RCI entered the vacation rental market with Holiday Network (sm), a worldwide vacation rental channel for consumers. [Here it is VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE: Those consumers can be any "joe" the plumber. They DEFINITELY do not have to pay a membership fee to gain access and they can in fact gain access to property that should be available only to those who are paying for access.]

Their Inventory is supposed to be coming from HOA's with extra inventory, Timeshare Developer's with extra inventory, Elegant Resorts not in the timeshare industry, and Private Owners of Vacation Homes in High Demand Areas who choose to use Holiday Network to rent out their properties. :hysterical:

Like the little guy rolling around in hysterics there are many of us here on TUG who believe that their source of inventory also includes OUR properties that we put up to TRADE.

I agree with Carolinan that what RCI has apparently done is undermine the Timeshare Resale as well as the Retail Market by flooding the RENTAL MARKET with what we readily recognize as Condos at Resorts that we as Owners deposited for TRADES.

RCI's action since 2002 and especially over the last two years has depressed the TIMESAHARE market by depressing prices, (That helps those of us who want to buy; but seriously hurts our ability to Re-sell) and it undermines the ability of the Renters among us to get a reasonable Rental.

RCI continues to degrade the EXCHANGE program, to the detriment of the very Developers that created it and definitely to the detriment of any OWNER of Timeshare that is looking to sell or rent. To further quote Carolinan: "That is not good for the Industry."

BocaBum in my humble opinion is wrong when he or she asserts that what Carolinan said is 100% false. Saying something is 100% False is stating an absolute. How does BocaBum or anyone eles know that it is 100% False.

How can any reasonable person who knows the facts assert that Carolinan is 100% wrong. If Carolinan opines that "the tanking of the Resale Market is due to RCI's rental policies couldn't that opinion be 5%, 10%, 20% or more of the reason why the Resale Market has tanked?

Shouldn't BocaBum at least concede that something "Smells" in the dump. In this case the "Dump" is the place RCI now has much of OUR inventory - Holiday Network or Endless Vacation Rentals as RCI calls it when someone outside of our "Exclusive Group" is looking to book a rental.

BocaBum says: The tanking of the resale market is due to the supply and demand imbalance caused by the dual effect of the reduced tour volume from resort developers and the significantly increased resale supply created by PCCs dumping inventory on eBay.

If RCI did NOT have a rental program, the exact same thing would be true of the resale market. It would be in the toilet.
Click to expand...

I agree with BocaBum's above statement we are not in the toilet solely because of what RCI has done. But, what RCI has done is still a significant depressing influence. It has become to widely known that one can access the Rental Inventory at RCI more cheaply and therefore avoid outright ownership of timeshare. RCI is biting off the hand that has fed it all of these years and that is SAD!:annoyed:
 
Goofyhobbie said:
Now this is getting to be a great thread. Carolinan made a good point regarding the fact that the originial timeshare concept is a good one but, instead of saying "including the ownership / exchange model" I would say because of the ownership / exchange model.

Correct me if I am wrong the ownership / exchange model originally was set up for the benefit of Developers who then could get people to buy in to the concept of "TIMESHARE" and "EXCLUSIVELY" and be able to EXCHANGE with other Owners throughout the World. The Exclusive Entry Fee included making the initial purchase from a DEVELOPER (Somebody had to be first!), and because of that ownership the owner received the right to become a member of an EXCLUSIVE group like RCI or II for an ANNUAL FEE. Not only was On-going Membership a requirement and Ownership a requirement, fees are required to make an Exchange. (All as it should be!)

But then RCI decided in 2002 to create a NEW revenue stream to enance the profits to it's stockholders. RCI entered the vacation rental market with Holiday Network (sm), a worldwide vacation rental channel for consumers. [Here it is VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE: Those consumers can be any "joe" the plumber. They DEFINITELY do not have to pay a membership fee to gain access and they can in fact gain access to property that should be available only to those who are paying for access.]

Their Inventory is supposed to be coming from HOA's with extra inventory, Timeshare Developer's with extra inventory, Elegant Resorts not in the timeshare industry, and Private Owners of Vacation Homes in High Demand Areas who choose to use Holiday Network to rent out their properties. :hysterical:

Like the little guy rolling around in hysterics there are many of us here on TUG who believe that their source of inventory also includes OUR properties that we put up to TRADE.

I agree with Carolinan that what RCI has apparently done is undermine the Timeshare Resale as well as the Retail Market by flooding the RENTAL MARKET with what we readily recognize as Condos at Resorts that we as Owners deposited for TRADES.

RCI's action since 2002 and especially over the last two years has depressed the TIMESAHARE market by depressing prices, (That helps those of us who want to buy; but seriously hurts our ability to Re-sell) and it undermines the ability of the Renters among us to get a reasonable Rental.

RCI continues to degrade the EXCHANGE program, to the detriment of the very Developers that created it and definitely to the detriment of any OWNER of Timeshare that is looking to sell or rent. To further quote Carolinan: "That is not good for the Industry."

BocaBum in my humble opinion is wrong when he or she asserts that what Carolinan said is 100% false. Saying something is 100% False is stating an absolute. How does BocaBum or anyone eles know that it is 100% False.

How can any reasonable person who knows the facts assert that Carolinan is 100% wrong. If Carolinan opines that "the tanking of the Resale Market is due to RCI's rental policies couldn't that opinion be 5%, 10%, 20% or more of the reason why the Resale Market has tanked?

Shouldn't BocaBum at least concede that something "Smells" in the dump. In this case the "Dump" is the place RCI now has much of OUR inventory - Holiday Network or Endless Vacation Rentals as RCI calls it when someone outside of our "Exclusive Group" is looking to book a rental.



I agree with BocaBum's above statement we are not in the toilet solely because of what RCI has done. But, what RCI has done is still a significant depressing influence. It has become to widely known that one can access the Rental Inventory at RCI more cheaply and therefore avoid outright ownership of timeshare. RCI is biting off the hand that has fed it all of these years and that is SAD!:annoyed:
Click to expand...


Carolinian pins the collapse of the resale market on RCI rentals. That couldn't be farther from the truth. His assertion is wrong. It's not the cause. The market would have tanked if RCI had no rental program. You agree with that assertion. That proves he was 100% wrong on causality.

You may as well attribute the tanking of the resale market to the Indonesian Tsunami arguing that people travel less because of the death and destruction it caused. That has about as much impact as RCI rentals = 0%.

Whether or not RCI is doing something wrong is not relevant to the question of what caused the collapse in the resale market. RCI may or may not be doing anything wrong. I think they are cheating. I just don't know by how much. It's a travesty, but one that can be solved with a single phone call to RCI to cancel your account. No lawyers required.
 
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BocaBum99,

I continue to agree with you that RCI and it's policies are not the ONLY reason that the Timeshare Re-Sale and Retail market has tanked. That is abundantly clear; but I again argue that it can and should be considered among the causes although way down the list of causes.

To say that RCI's policies are not contributing to the depressed market is naive when you consider that what RCI is doing is well known among a large percentage of Timeshare Owners.

Those same Owners are thinking people who no doubt are aware of a perceived reduction in trading ability. The very fact that they can't get what they want when they want it while RCI has plentiful inventory at "EXTRA VACATIONS" is depressing and in my estimation is causing many, if not directly then at least indirectly, to dump their timeshares given their perceived belief that they can not use as readily as they had previously bargained for.
 
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