Starwood units now selling for nothing

[gmarine]

Today a small one bedroom annual 1-52 SDO sold for $1 on EBAY. It isnt even a situation where usage starts in 2009 and m-fees are due. Usage starts in 2010. ONE DOLLAR. This is how bad things are getting for Starwood owners. Its pretty sad.

[DeniseM]

WMH sold for $1 earlier this week - at least a Tugger got it!

[l2trade]

I think I just ate some of those. McDonald's Dollar Menu, right?

This is a sad situation indeed. Starwood took away our 'request first' trade rights with II. MF far exceed rental prices during the off season. Why buy now?

[yumdrey]

Originally Posted by l2trade

This is a sad situation indeed. Starwood took away our 'request first' trade rights with II. MF far exceed rental prices during the off season. Why buy now?

Actually, rental prices during peak season is also lower than MF now. I checked redweek.com and saw four Thanksgiving weeks in WMH rentals are lower than MF (including taxes).

[DeniseM]

Thanksgiving is not peak season for SDO - peak season is March and Easter.

[sjuhawk_jd]

Originally Posted by gmarine

Today a small one bedroom annual 1-52 SDO sold for $1 on EBAY. It isnt even a situation where usage starts in 2009 and m-fees are due. Usage starts in 2010. ONE DOLLAR. This is how bad things are getting for Starwood owners. Its pretty sad.

"Starwood is hired to administer reservations, clean the toilets, and take out the trash. They are not paid to interfere with owners' usage. They're acting as if they own the place." - Pit

Gmarine, can the above tag line be used at the bottom of all emails that you send to senior leadership at SVO?

[Fredm]

Originally Posted by gmarine

Today a small one bedroom annual 1-52 SDO sold for $1 on EBAY. It isnt even a situation where usage starts in 2009 and m-fees are due. Usage starts in 2010. ONE DOLLAR. This is how bad things are getting for Starwood owners. Its pretty sad.

It is sad. But, I wouldn't read too much into that auction.

It is more a sign of the times, and timing. Few want to sign on to a maintenance fee immediately coming due. Meanwhile, the seller wants nothing more to do with it.

What we don't hear much about at all is the situation where an owner signs on with a PCC, and forks over 3k+ to take the share off their hands. The PCC is the likely seller at a $1 auction. The smart ones have learned to not get too greedy. Better to sell for a buck, than have the poor owner get another HOA bill and cry bloody murder. Or, be on the hook for the fees themselves.

I had a situation occur that makes my point.
Some months ago a WMH Silver owner called me. They were referred to me by the BBB.
The prior evening the owner attended a PCC presentation and signed up, but had not yet paid the $3400. For whatever reason it was not working for them. They wanted O-U-T. And believed what the PCC was telling them.
It took a fairly long discussion to convince them that there was a better way. Finally, I simply said that they could just sign the deed over to me, and save $3,400. That did it.
I didn't want the timeshare or the fee obligation. So, offered to sell it and split the sale price with them 50-50.
Bottom line, it sold for $2,200. Gave them $1100. They were ahead of the game by $4500.

Point is that for every story similar to this one (and there are a number), hundreds (thousands?) simply fork over the timeshare .

Most bargains on ebay are not a true reflection of the "market". They are the result of a scam perpetrated on an owner who swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker. The slimy sales job got it there.

The difference these days is potential buyers are more reluctant than ever to assume the fees. So, it's not that a $1 sale is remarkable, but that some piece of dirt actually made over $3000 net from the sale. Was not too long ago that they may have made $5-6000.

I just wish that those owners who continue to be conned would themselves auction it off for a buck. They would be way ahead, and we would see many more $1 auctions than exist now.
The difference is that we don't see the owners who are actually paying to be done with it.

[DanCali]

Originally Posted by yumdrey

Actually, rental prices during peak season is also lower than MF now. I checked redweek.com and saw four Thanksgiving weeks in WMH rentals are lower than MF (including taxes).

That's not surprising and probably not related to recent changes. If you had 100 Thanksgiving week rentals at the beginning of the year and 90 of them rented by now, the remaining ones (probably the ones with the highest initial rental prices) have to lower their price as the date approaches. Otherwise, the only things they can do are (i) change the reservation to December and be in the same position in 4 weeks or (ii) trade to II.

My conjecture is that the rental prices are coming down not because II is now a bad option, but because the reservation date (and end of the year) are approaching. For the same reason you could pick a Christmas week WKORV OV studio rental for 1000 or less at this time of the year, while early 2010 studio rentals are double... Wait longer and you could probably pick up a 2BR for $1500.

[Stefa]

The SDO that sold for $1 came with $515 closing costs plus $25 transfer fee. Still dirt cheap, but not that much less than I paid for mine two years ago when you add in all the extra costs.

[krj9999]

I bought a small 1BR SDO (which turned out to be a true platinum week) on Ebay back in July for $97, plus $399 for closing and $25 for the transfer fee (plus 2009 MFs and the 2009 week).

So I guess you could say prices are no worse now than they have been.

Originally Posted by Stefa

The SDO that sold for $1 came with $515 closing costs plus $25 transfer fee. Still dirt cheap, but not that much less than I paid for mine two years ago when you add in all the extra costs.

[AwayWeGo]

Originally Posted by gmarine

Today a small one bedroom annual 1-52 SDO sold for $1 on EBAY. It isnt even a situation where usage starts in 2009 and m-fees are due. Usage starts in 2010. ONE DOLLAR. This is how bad things are getting for Starwood owners. Its pretty sad.

Shux, unless the owners were counting on selling for big bux, the current prices other people are paying should be mox nix, no ?

I mean, if you like timeshare vacationing at your StarWood timeshare, then nothing about higher or lower StarWood resale prices should have any effect on that.

Right?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

[sjuhawk_jd]

Originally Posted by Fredm

It is sad. But, I wouldn't read too much into that auction.

It is more a sign of the times, and timing. Few want to sign on to a maintenance fee immediately coming due. Meanwhile, the seller wants nothing more to do with it.

What we don't hear much about at all is the situation where an owner signs on with a PCC, and forks over 3k+ to take the share off their hands. The PCC is the likely seller at a $1 auction. The smart ones have learned to not get too greedy. Better to sell for a buck, than have the poor owner get another HOA bill and cry bloody murder. Or, be on the hook for the fees themselves.

I had a situation occur that makes my point.
Some months ago a WMH Silver owner called me. They were referred to me by the BBB.
The prior evening the owner attended a PCC presentation and signed up, but had not yet paid the $3400. For whatever reason it was not working for them. They wanted O-U-T. And believed what the PCC was telling them.
It took a fairly long discussion to convince them that there was a better way. Finally, I simply said that they could just sign the deed over to me, and save $3,400. That did it.
I didn't want the timeshare or the fee obligation. So, offered to sell it and split the sale price with them 50-50.
Bottom line, it sold for $2,200. Gave them $1100. They were ahead of the game by $4500.

Point is that for every story similar to this one (and there are a number), hundreds (thousands?) simply fork over the timeshare .

Most bargains on ebay are not a true reflection of the "market". They are the result of a scam perpetrated on an owner who swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker. The slimy sales job got it there.

The difference these days is potential buyers are more reluctant than ever to assume the fees. So, it's not that a $1 sale is remarkable, but that some piece of dirt actually made over $3000 net from the sale. Was not too long ago that they may have made $5-6000.

I just wish that those owners who continue to be conned would themselves auction it off for a buck. They would be way ahead, and we would see many more $1 auctions than exist now.
The difference is that we don't see the owners who are actually paying to be done with it.

Similarly obtained units by PCCs at HGVC are selling for thousands of dollars on ebay!

There is some merit in your analysis, but ebay prices do indicate the relative "worthiness" of a timeshare property.

[DeniseM]

Originally Posted by AwayWeGo

Shux, unless the owners were counting on selling for big bux, the current prices other people are paying should be mox nix, no ?

I mean, if you like timeshare vacationing at your StarWood timeshare, then nothing about higher or lower StarWood resale prices should have any effect on that.

Right?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

Alan - Resales at SDO used to be very popular to buy to exchange in II, for the Starwood preference. 5 years ago I paid $2K for a 1 bdm. Recently, Starwood and II have lowered the exchange value of Starwood resorts, so we have seen a recent drop in resale values as a result. Yes, it's also the economy, but it's not just the economy.

[DavidnRobin]

I strongly agree with FredM here - that eBay auctions are not necessarily representive of the market, and are not necessarily auctions that complete in a sale. This should be stated repeatly in the eBay sales thread...

[DanCali]

Originally Posted by AwayWeGo

Shux, unless the owners were counting on selling for big bux, the current prices other people are paying should be mox nix, no ?

I mean, if you like timeshare vacationing at your StarWood timeshare, then nothing about higher or lower StarWood resale prices should have any effect on that.

Right?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

If you like vacationing at the property you own and do not plan to sell anytime soon, then you probably don't care too much in the short run.

In the long run though I think everyone should care about resale values. It's pretty clear resale values are impacted by the option to have SVN exchanges (mandatory/voluntary resorts), by increasing maintenance fees, and by the ability to have good exchanges via II. In particular, if resale values hit zero because II exchanges are now worse and maintenance fees are no longer worth it, then what will happen when your kids inherit the place? By then maintenance fees will be much higher and resale values will be negative (i.e., people will pay big $$$ for someone to get it off their hands - see post #7 by FredM). Do you really want to leave them that liability?

[DanCali]

Originally Posted by Fredm

What we don't hear much about at all is the situation where an owner signs on with a PCC, and forks over 3k+ to take the share off their hands. The PCC is the likely seller at a $1 auction. The smart ones have learned to not get too greedy. Better to sell for a buck, than have the poor owner get another HOA bill and cry bloody murder. Or, be on the hook for the fees themselves.

But doesn't this mean that the average resale price is currently negative?

If x% of sellers pay $3000+ to get rid of it and the remaining sellers get $1-$100 when they sell that sounds like a negative average selling price...

[Nickfromct]

I was in the market for an SDO unit over the summer when all this stuff hit the fan. I bid on a few, but was unsucessful. I've backed off until the dust settles a bit. I'd probably only be interested in a platinum week at this point based on what I've read here on TUG.

[gmarine]

Originally Posted by DavidnRobin

I strongly agree with FredM here - that eBay auctions are not necessarily representive of the market, and are not necessarily auctions that complete in a sale. This should be stated repeatly in the eBay sales thread...

I agree that one EBAY auction isnt necessarily representaive of the market. However it does show that there was NOBODY willing to pay $2 for a one bedroom annual SDO unit. Thats not good.

And add to that there were two other similar auctions that recently sold for $95 and $100 respectively.

[Fredm]

Originally Posted by DannyM

But doesn't this mean that the average resale price is currently negative?

If x% of sellers pay $3000+ to get rid of it and the remaining sellers get $1-$100 when they sell that sounds like a negative average selling price...

No, it does not mean the average price is negative.
It means that a number of uninformed owners are conned into paying someone to take the timeshare from them.
If they knew better, they would sell it.

[gmarine]

Originally Posted by AwayWeGo

Shux, unless the owners were counting on selling for big bux, the current prices other people are paying should be mox nix, no ?

I mean, if you like timeshare vacationing at your StarWood timeshare, then nothing about higher or lower StarWood resale prices should have any effect on that.

Right?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

Wrong. Just as you should care about home values in the area in which you live, you should care about the resale values of timeshares in which you own. You may not have plans to ever sell your home yet you should still care about resale value.
A timeshare has a value attached to it and even though an owner may not have plans to sell there may come of time when an owner needs to sell.

[DanCali]

Originally Posted by Fredm

No, it does not mean the average price is negative.
It means that a number of uninformed owners are conned into paying someone to take the timeshare from them.
If they knew better, they would sell it.

Originally Posted by gmarine

I agree that one EBAY auction isnt necessarily representaive of the market. However it does show that there was NOBODY willing to pay $2 for a one bedroom annual SDO unit. Thats not good.

Putting these two posts together - selling at a positive price is not always feasible... Maybe they tried to sell it and had no luck - leading to the option to pay someone to take it (i.e. negative selling price)?

One could also argue that anyone buying at a positive price is uninformed...

[gmarine]

Originally Posted by krj9999

I bought a small 1BR SDO (which turned out to be a true platinum week) on Ebay back in July for $97, plus $399 for closing and $25 for the transfer fee (plus 2009 MFs and the 2009 week).

So I guess you could say prices are no worse now than they have been.

I disagree. Many people dont want to buy units that include the current years usage when the purchase wont close until after the prime season of that resort ends. You paid 2009 m-fees for 2009 usage and had to either use a 2009 week or deposit a 2009 week with Interval with less than ideal time before check in date.

Sales late in the year which include usage that year almost always sell for less than typical prices.

[DavidnRobin]

Originally Posted by gmarine

I agree that one EBAY auction isnt necessarily representaive of the market. However it does show that there was NOBODY willing to pay $2 for a one bedroom annual SDO unit. Thats not good.

And add to that there were two other similar auctions that recently sold for $95 and $100 respectively.

I am very glad I stopped 2 people from buying SDO resale cheaply before this all happened with SVO/II. They were never that expensive in the 1st place especially considering those poor people who bought form Starwood (like buying a dot.bomb stock) In the current SVO world - I think that the 'Buy where you want to go' mantra is more important than ever.

While the fight with II/SVO is important - like many things here on TUG - they caught on to the bargains and loopholes out there - and put an end to it. In my view - more important is how deliquent/default VOIs that result in non-payment of MFs affects all Owners - and is a much bigger issue than the changes in II, but maybe that is because I have no horse in this race.

[Fredm]

Originally Posted by sjuhawk_jd

Similarly obtained units by PCCs at HGVC are selling for thousands of dollars on ebay!

There is some merit in your analysis, but ebay prices do indicate the relative "worthiness" of a timeshare property.

Sure. If by "worthiness", you mean demand.

[Snorkey]

I have returned my purchase of SDO 1 br.
I lost my deposit so if someone is willing to pay back my lost deposit , I will take it.

You pay me $300 and I will pay $1 for it.

Maybe I will be waiting long time for this....or maybe not.

So sad to see *wood go down so much in such a short period of time.