No Availability At Harborside

I had a heated discussion with reservations yesterday regarding no availability at Harborside while you can go on the Atlantis site and get a rental for pretty much any week you want. She used an explanation that these are unsold units and used for Discovery to allow them to sell these as time shares. I told them this can't be the case, and will give them 72 hours to rectify. I know this has been spoken about before, but if you can't exchange into these other resorts, it kills a majority of what made this a good time share program. I believe the only way to stop this is to get a class action lawsuit together, and get discovery going regarding everything Starwood is doing. Starwood has a fiduciary responsibility towards their vacation owners. If they are not acting in that role, including maintenance fees, they could be held accountable.

Once I get a negative response, which I truly expect, since I requested a week in the middle of March, I am going to send a certified letter to White Plains NY and see where that leads.

LarryAck said:

I told them this can't be the case, and will give them 72 hours to rectify.

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How do you know this?

LarryAck said:

She used an explanation that these are unsold units and used for Discovery to allow them to sell these as time shares.

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There are bona fide reasons Atlantis/Starwood will have inventory to rent, while there is no availability for SVN.

1. HRA owners who cashed in their usage for SPG points. Yes, a poor utilization of usage but HRA has to rent the room out to buy the SPG points from Starwood. Or HRA owners who borrowed Staroptions from future years for current usage.

2. Unsold units belong to the developer to do with as it sees fit.

3. The small retained interest that the developer keeps in HRA, by design (and by law I think). Every week of ever year, a small percentage of the units that are legally and legitimately opened by Starwood/Atlantis will be available for rent.

4. Foreclosed units or delinquent accounts revert to the developer...or are rented to make up the associations' shortfalls until resold.

LarryAck said:

I know this has been spoken about before, but if you can't exchange into these other resorts, it kills a majority of what made this a good time share program.

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As a side note, I wasn't an idiot when I bought at HRA for platinum season. I did the research before purchase and saw that trading into HRA from the less desirable SVO resorts was nearly impossible in prime season....owners bout there because they like Atlantis, not because they hoped to vacation in Orlando or Myrtle Beach.

Larry - I hate to tell you this, but the info. you received is correct. The unsold units belong to Starwood and they can do anything they want with them. Also units that have been converted to Starpoints, belong to Starwood.

For a week to be in the exchange pool, a Harborside owner has to have made a Staroptions exchange, and given up their week at Harborside. With the high maintenance fees there, I just don't think that happens very often. Owners usually use their week, or rent it for big $$$.

Also - you are about 3 months late trying for this exchange - the 8 mo. mark was about for a Staroption exchange for March 29th, was July 29th. Harborside is the 2nd hardest exchange in the Starwood system. For your best chance at a Staroption exchange you have to call at exactly 8 mos. out at 8:59 a.m. ET.

DeniseM said:

For a week to be in the exchange pool, a Harborside owner has to have made a Staroptions exchange, and given up their week at Harborside...

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Do we know for a fact that this has to happen?

The SVN Owner Membership Agreement says the following:

"Owner agress that once an SVN exchange has been confirmed, owner has reliquished all use rights in the Exchanged Interest. Owner further agress that (a) such a confirmation shall act as an assignment of the Exchanged Interest to SVN Operator; (b) SVN Operator is entitled to use the Exchanged Interest in SVN Operator's sole discretion; and (c) SVN Operator is further entitled to keep any and all fees generated by the use of the Exchanged Interest."

The way I read it basically says SVN can do whatever they want with a week converted to StarOptions... Where does it say that if you exchange a WKORV to go to Harborside (or vice versa), Starwood is obligated to put the WKORV unit in the exchange pool rather than rent it?

That's a good point Danny, I guess we don't really know...

Danny / Denise --

I researched this and posted it on another thread yesterday. I'm not positive that the disclosure documents are the same for ALL resorts, but here's the basic premise in the latest version:

-- For floating weeks, Starwood can begin pulling inventory 30 days after the home resosrt preference period begins (i.e., at the 11 month mark). Inventory is pulled in anticipation of external exchange requests (i.e., they bulk deposit weeks) and in anticipation of StarPoint conversions.
-- For fixed weeks, Starwood can begin pulling inventory as soon as the home resort fixed preference period ends (i.e., at 10 months). Reasons for pulling are the same.

Starwood cannot "do whatever it wants" with owner weeks (e.g., use them for promotional purposes, rent them) unless they remain unreserved at the 60-day mark. I believe that several (if not most/all) state laws prohibit developers/managers from renting owner weeks before that 60-day mark (thank goodness!)

Bottom line -- if they're pulling prime inventory at the "hot" resorts (HRA, WSJ), it's for StarPoint conversions. We know they're not bulk banking those weeks. But, pulling them for StarPoint conversions can be very profitable for them. My gold plus 3-BR pool villa only gets 25000 StarPoints (like I'd ever convert :hysterical: ). Even if Starwood had to pay retail (3.5 cents) to buy the points, they'd have to spend a whopping $875 to buy the StarPoints ... then could turn around and rent the week for $3000, $4000 ... I've seen them (on Westin's website) for as much as $11000.

This, I fear, is the answer to the mystery surrounding HRA and WSJ inventory at the 8-month mark. There do not appear to be ANY rules that prohibit Starwood from "hand-picking" the weeks to pull from inventory for SPG conversions. They've taken a page from RCI's rulebook.

I know some people think SPG conversions are a good thing. But, I'd give that right up in a NY minute (for my network weeks) if it would keep Starwood's hands out of the cookie jar. Could this be one of those network "benefits" that really benefits Starwood the most ???????????????

All this is likely true but I also think there are unsold weeks--particularly with the economy--and those weeks are inventory to be rented at top dollar.
And by the way the middle/end of March is an extremely popular time and calling 8 months out as another poster indicated is absolutely mandatory if you want any shot at getting in to Harborside! I tried at 10 months out to get a similar time without success-I own week 1 so I was able to call at that 10 month out timeframe for a different week in my season, at my home resort, in hopes an owner did not confirm at the 10-12 month timeframe for March--calling this late is virtually impossible.

jerseygirl said:

-- For floating weeks, Starwood can begin pulling inventory 30 days after the home resosrt preference period begins (i.e., at the 11 month mark). Inventory is pulled in anticipation of external exchange requests (i.e., they bulk deposit weeks) and in anticipation of StarPoint conversions.
-- For fixed weeks, Starwood can begin pulling inventory as soon as the home resort fixed preference period ends (i.e., at 10 months). Reasons for pulling are the same.

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mariawolf said:

All this is likely true but I also think there are unsold weeks--particularly with the economy--and those weeks are inventory to be rented at top dollar.
And by the way the middle/end of March is an extremely popular time and calling 8 months out as another poster indicated is absolutely mandatory if you want any shot at getting in to Harborside! I tried at 10 months out to get a similar time without success-I own week 1 so I was able to call at that 10 month out timeframe for a different week in my season, at my home resort, in hopes an owner did not confirm at the 10-12 month timeframe for March--calling this late is virtually impossible.

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I always found it odd that owners at HRA Phase I are unable to get weeks in their season. First off, what are the odds that every single owner uses (or rents) their fixed week - there is always a chance that people change their plans, want to go in a different week, or just want to go to Europe sometimes. Second, the owner has to actually remember to confirm their week - there are always people who will forget to do that.

The fact that our friends at Starwood can pull inventory as soon as it is available (and always before exchangers) explains a lot... nuff said!

So when someone forgets to confirm their fixed week at HRA, Starwood can rent it and tell exchangers that nothing is available. The owner of the fixed week who didn't confirm is effectively forced to exchange into SVN... makes sense (for Starwood)

mariawolf said:

This is likely true but I also think there are unsold weeks--particularly with the economy--and those weeks are inventory to be rented at top dollar.

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That's a good point Maria, but I don't think there are very many unsold weeks at Harborside. The last time I asked about availablity, it was pretty dismal.

mariawolf said:

And by the way the middle/end of March is an extremely popular time and calling 8 months out as another poster indicated is absolutely mandatory if you want any shot at getting in to Harborside! I tried at 10 months out to get a similar time without success-I own week 1 so I was able to call at that 10 month out timeframe for a different week in my season, at my home resort, in hopes an owner did not confirm at the 10-12 month timeframe for March--calling this late is virtually impossible.

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I too can (as can all phase one owners) "theoretically" float at 10 months. There's never any availability. Suspicious? Most definitely.

DannyM said:

I always found it odd that owners at HRA Phase I are unable to get weeks in their season. First off, what are the odds that every single owner uses (or rents) their fixed week - there is always a chance that people change their plans, want to go in a different week, or just want to go to Europe sometimes. Second, the owner has to actually remember to confirm their week - there are always people who will forget to do that.

The fact that our friends at Starwood can pull inventory as soon as it is available (and always before exchangers) explains a lot... nuff said!

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Exactly!!!!

DannyM said:

So when someone forgets to confirm their fixed week at HRA, Starwood can rent it and tell exchangers that nothing is available. The owner of the fixed week who didn't confirm is effectively forced to exchange into SVN... makes sense (for Starwood)

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I know this is just semantics ... but they can't just rent it, if I'm reading the documents clearly. They have to "claim the weeks" for StarPoint conversions ... then, they can rent them. Same end result ... but a legal distinction. And, they're permitted to "guesstimate" based on historical usage (i.e., they have wiggle room). And, I don't think there's anything that stops them from pulling HRA weeks (for example) to fund Orlando StarPoint conversions. If I'm right, that's really ugly.

I agree it is suspicious at the 10 month time frame--I don't usually use another week but when I tried to get the week when the grandchildren were off school (3/26 start date) I was told no availability--I chalked it up to it being a holiday period but I guess that's not always the case.

jerseygirl said:

...And, I don't think there's anything that stops them from pulling HRA weeks (for example) to fund Orlando StarPoint conversions. If I'm right, that's really ugly.

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OMG - you are right... they can totally do that because the HRA person who didn't confirm their week and whose week was subsequently pulled will just be forced to exchange when they are told that all other 8000 owners were diligent enough to confirm their weeks in the 10-12 month timeframe... as long as when they call they can be accomodated somewhere in the system some week Starwod is probably in the clear.

That probably explains why you can never exchange into WSJ and HRA - they pull those weeks at 11 months and 10 months out!

DannyM said:

Do we know for a fact that this has to happen?

The SVN Owner Membership Agreement says the following:

"Owner agress that once an SVN exchange has been confirmed, owner has reliquished all use rights in the Exchanged Interest. Owner further agress that (a) such a confirmation shall act as an assignment of the Exchanged Interest to SVN Operator; (b) SVN Operator is entitled to use the Exchanged Interest in SVN Operator's sole discretion; and (c) SVN Operator is further entitled to keep any and all fees generated by the use of the Exchanged Interest."

The way I read it basically says SVN can do whatever they want with a week converted to StarOptions... Where does it say that if you exchange a WKORV to go to Harborside (or vice versa), Starwood is obligated to put the WKORV unit in the exchange pool rather than rent it?

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For an SVN member at another resort (other than HRA) to get into HRA, there has to be unused owner space available. You do NOT have to rely on an HRA owner to make an SVN exchange out.

I think we can all agree that with the OP being three months in the SVN reservation window which starts 8 months prior to any given check-in, that the fact that there is no availability is not a surprise.

DannyM said:

OMG - you are right... they can totally do that because the HRA person who didn't confirm their week and whose week was subsequently pulled will just be forced to exchange when they are told that all other 8000 owners were diligent enough to confirm their weeks in the 10-12 month timeframe... as long as when they call they can be accomodated somewhere in the system some week Starwod is probably in the clear.

That probably explains why you can never exchange into WSJ and HRA - they pull those weeks at 11 months and 10 months out!

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Starwood is not going to use anymore inventory from HRA than they have to in order to cover the bill for SPG conversions. It is more likely that they will pull from other resorts to fulfill costs associated to HRA SPG conversions because there will not be many owners there converting to hotel points.

I hope everyone can trust me on this.

The availability issue at HRA is not complicated. For the timeframe that the OP is looking for at 5 months in advance it is not really fair to draw conclusions as to why the lack of availbility. Owners are using. Period.

James1975NY said:

Starwood is not going to use anymore inventory from HRA than they have to in order to cover the bill for SPG conversions. It is more likely that they will pull from other resorts to fulfill costs associated to HRA SPG conversions because there will not be many owners there converting to hotel points.

I hope everyone can trust me on this.

The availability issue at HRA is not complicated. For the timeframe that the OP is looking for at 5 months in advance it is not really fair to draw conclusions as to why the lack of availbility. Owners are using. Period.

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St. John is the same situation. Owners are using.

James1975NY said:

For an SVN member at another resort (other than HRA) to get into HRA, there has to be unused owner space available. You do NOT have to rely on an HRA owner to make an SVN exchange out.

I think we can all agree that with the OP being three months in the SVN reservation window which starts 8 months prior to any given check-in, that the fact that there is no availability is not a surprise.

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At 3 months out I agree that no availability at HRA is no surprise.

But the point is that Starwood can grab HRA inventory at 12am at the 10 month mark from owners who didn't confirm their fixed week (based on anticipation of StarPoint conversion systemwide...) So the owners who want to float in the same season can't confirm exchanges and get the excuse that all other (thousands of) owners confirmed their week. Seriously... 100% of owners bother to call at 10-12 months out and go every year in the same week? Even the ones who forget to pay their cable bills occasionally? I don't buy it...

At other resorts Starwood can start grabbing prime inventory at 11 months out. They can grab WKORV inventory because they anticipate x% of owners in Orlando or SBP etc will convert to StarOptions. So if you call at 8 months out to request WKORV in the summer and are told there is no availability - you don't know if Starwood or WKORV owners got that week. In fact, you may be a WKORV owner calling to request a summer week at 10.5 months out and may be told there is no availability. You still don't know if so many other owners were diligent enough to book the 4th of July week you want at 12 months out, or if Starwood just grabbed all those weeks to rent because they anticipate x% of owners (including WKORV and other resorts) may convert to StarOptions.

James1975NY said:

Starwood is not going to use anymore inventory from HRA than they have to in order to cover the bill for SPG conversions. It is more likely that they will pull from other resorts to fulfill costs associated to HRA SPG conversions because there will not be many owners there converting to hotel points.

I hope everyone can trust me on this.

St. John is the same situation. Owners are using.

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James - How do you know what is more likely?

How do you know WSJ owners are using... all of them?

I know you worked at Starwood, but do you have the data to back it up?

If they can (contractually) book prime inventory at prime resorts based on (anticipated) StarPoint conversions elsewhere they why wouldn't they do it? It makes financial sense for them...

It also explains why owners at HRA can't float in their season at 10 months out because I doubt that even 70% of people go or rent their week year after year... people want to go to Europe or Australia sometimes, they may want to go in July vs. August other times, or they simply forget to call, which probably happens more often than one would suspect...

DannyM said:

At 3 months out I agree that no availability at HRA is no surprise.

But the point is that Starwood can grab HRA inventory at 12am at the 10 month mark from owners who didn't confirm their fixed week (based on anticipation of StarPoint conversion systemwide...) So the owners who want to float in the same season can't confirm exchanges and get the excuse that all other (thousands of) owners confirmed their week. Seriously... 100% of owners bother to call at 10-12 months out and go every year in the same week? Even the ones who forget to pay their cable bills occasionally? I don't buy it...

At other resorts Starwood can start grabbing prime inventory at 11 months out. They can grab WKORV inventory because they anticipate x% of owners in Orlando or SBP etc will convert to StarOptions. So if you call at 8 months out to request WKORV in the summer and are told there is no availability - you don't know if Starwood or WKORV owners got that week. In fact, you may be a WKORV owner calling to request a summer week at 10.5 months out and may be told there is no availability. You still don't know if so many other owners were diligent enough to book the 4th of July week you want at 12 months out, or if Starwood just grabbed all those weeks to rent because they anticipate x% of owners (including WKORV and other resorts) may convert to StarOptions.

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Danny, I understand what Starwood cando as it relates to assigning inventory for SPG payback and I am NOT saying that every owner at HRA is booking their week at the 10-12 week mark.

There are two phases at HRA which I am sure you are aware of and phase II from a product standpoint is different than the phase one. Phase II is for the most part a true float product where the 12-10 month window does not apply.

What I am tyring to illustrate is that Starwood is conscious of where owners have been denied availability from a data standpoint and with this information, they plan accordingly. It has been a couple of years since I have worked there but I have no reason to believe that their focus on fulfilling owner usage has changed.

I recall a lot of feedback in the Starwood threads on how it was relatively easy to get into WKOR(N) with any decent planning. I understood this thread was started because of the lack of availability at HRA.

Please be clear and understand that I get the frustrations that are posted here. I am simply trying to help by sharing my knowledge.

For what it is worth, I have said several times that it is not fair for SVO to prevent owners from depositing a week of their choice. Of course, the SVN rules and disclosures permit them to do so and are acknowledged by the owners.

Now this is all starting to make sense--we have friends who own 6 weeks at WSJ and have been basically been told if you don't use your week you won't be able to get another week there. My friends that own there now can't use them all--they own 6--so they rent them.
I guess I would also like to hear from others who have tried to float in their own season and just try for a regular week--not a prime one like President's day or July 4th.
I know I own a week 52 at Harborside and I call and always reserve it because I rent it out for top dollar if I am not going to use it--that one week more than covers maintenance fees for both weeks I own.

mariawolf said:

that one week more than covers maintenance fees for both weeks I own.

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For now at least...

The end result of all this, we have been sold a bill of goods and as timeshare owners within their system they are not delivering. I really don't care about what they do or don't do. I have 296,000 staroptions to use every year, and luckily I have no little kids to worry about. I can travel pretty much all year. When I go to the reservationist, and say give me what ever week is available, in 1 BR, or premium or a 2 BR, and they say there is no availability all year, which is the case, something is not right. This has to be investigated. I have already contacted my attorney. If everything is on the up and up, so be it, but this doesn't make any sense.

LarryAck said:

The end result of all this, we have been sold a bill of goods and as timeshare owners within their system they are not delivering. I really don't care about what they do or don't do. I have 296,000 staroptions to use every year, and luckily I have no little kids to worry about. I can travel pretty much all year. When I go to the reservationist, and say give me what ever week is available, in 1 BR, or premium or a 2 BR, and they say there is no availability all year, which is the case, something is not right. This has to be investigated. I have already contacted my attorney. If everything is on the up and up, so be it, but this doesn't make any sense.

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My feeling is that whatever they are doing that limits availability is something that owners "agreed" to. When you purchased your timeshares or joined SVN, they made you sign that you agreed to be bound by certain rules - of course most buyers don't bother to read or fully understand the implication of those hundreds of pages they "agree" to... Starwood is just using those rules in their best financial interest because charging owners $50K+ upfront (per week) for vacation dreams they cannot deliver on is not enough...

LarryAck said:

The end result of all this, we have been sold a bill of goods and as timeshare owners within their system they are not delivering. I really don't care about what they do or don't do. I have 296,000 staroptions to use every year, and luckily I have no little kids to worry about. I can travel pretty much all year. When I go to the reservationist, and say give me what ever week is available, in 1 BR, or premium or a 2 BR, and they say there is no availability all year, which is the case, something is not right. This has to be investigated. I have already contacted my attorney. If everything is on the up and up, so be it, but this doesn't make any sense.

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It makes sense if owners at the resort use their resort....as I think is the case with Harborside.

Here on TUG we get a bit of a distorted view of why people buy timeshares....only a small proportion do so to trade. Most people want to return to their specific resort every year....I know I do. I have no interest in Palm Springs, Orlando, or Myrtle Beach. I bought to be associated with one of the worlds best mega-resorts (Atlantis). As did most Harborside owners.

Its actually funny how little of Starwood you see on-site at HRA. Down there its called the Atlantis Vacation Club, with Starwood in the fine print.

There's another reason (other than SVO manipulation) HRA and WSJ could be hard to get into: higher owner utilization than other SVO resorts.

If HRA owners use their priority windows more than owners at domestic resorts, all of this speculation could be moot. if this is the case, there's not going to be much, if any, inventory for others to use.

I know that I book early in my priority period, even if I'm not yet sure what week I'll be going. I know that if I have a good week, my worst case scenario at HRA is renting it out....usually at a good price during platinum season.

Many were sold on the promise of SVN and being able to all the resorts.

Transit said:

Many were sold on the promise of SVN and being able to all the resorts.

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This is how timeshare salespeople get you to buy a low-season week and/or a less desirable location. They tell you how you can trade up to great places like HRA, WSJ or Hawaii without having to pay the high costs of ownership.

Of course logic should tell you that everyone who owns in Orlando can't get into HRA, but people get caught up in the deal and sign up for a timeshare they really don't want.