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New official "skim" thread

Dave M

TUG Lifetime Member
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There are some on this forum who love to discuss the skim. This thread is the place to do it.

Those who choose to turn other threads into a skim discussion or a skim warning, to the consternation of the many who have complained to me and those who have complained on this forum, can expect to be suspended from posting. Such constant derailing of threads violates the "Be Courteous" rule.

So post away in this thread, but not in threads devoted to another topic.

Since this is a post in my capacity as moderator, responses agreeing or disagreeing with my message are inappropriate.

Dave M
BBS Moderator
 
Dave,

I understand your interest in establishing this and consolidating the many comments into one thread.

My issues with the Skim are well understood (including by Marriott), and I will try to summarize The Skim as I see it.

For definition, I propose an example if a week needs 4,500 points to book via Marriott. But Marriott offers you 4,100 points if you redeem your week for points. You've been skimmed 400 points, or approximately 10%. We think the average skim is between 7-22%, across all properties.

My key points:

1. Unfortunately, you now have less points to work with to book a new reservation
2. In a points system, the points you have to work with are important, they are the currency to make reservations.

3. You may not have enough points to book a week at your own resort (or to book a "like for like" trade into another resort of comparable demand)
4. When you go to book the reservation you want, you will likely compensate for not having enough points by a) booking 6 nights versus 7 b) travel in a shoulder season c) get a lower valued view d) buy 1,000 points from Marriott for $9,200 e) borrowing points from next year

These are decisions that you make because your points were skimmed, and for each individual that may be acceptable.

Marriott views this trade-off as a "price" for the flexibility you have to book any week, any resort, any length of stay. Other point systems charge fees for reservations, housekeeping, etc. Marriott elected to roll the fees into the skim. They also state that units will sit partially empty and that the spread is to compensate for those nights. The hidden value of your skim can be significant, and dwarf the out of pocket costs we are accustomed to. I use as a bench-mark the $0.40 per point in MFs -- for the person skimmed 400 points above, that $160 annually in hidden cost. For some people it's much much higher.

Marriott's position about an empty room for a night(s) (ie, breakage) is a weak argument as the MF has been paid and Marriott elected not to implement a short-term rental program (like HGVC/Worldmark/Wyndham) to fill those empty rooms. Those systems have highly effective programs to fill empty units, whereas Marriott has permanently priced in these assumed vacancies via the skim.

Points systems are tremendous, and I am a huge fan (I own two of them). Marriott has the best timeshare properties around, in the best locations, and the combination of a point system with those properties promises to be powerful.

How will Marriott benefit from The Skim?

Marriott will profit from the skimmed points -- possibly by renting the remaining night(s), possibly by selling 1,000 point packages @ $9.20 each to the owner who has less points to work with that they should have, possibly by renting points directly to the skimmed owner. Many owners will borrow from next year's points to make up for lost points, which will degrade next year's vacation alternatives.

Many TUGgers feel that the skim is acceptable because Marriott is a for-profit organization, and has developed a points system that appears to be extremely appealing. Many TUGgers who bought their properties for trading object less to the skim because they have enough points to do what they want to do anyway. I am happy for my TUGging colleagues.

The Skim does not affect me personally. I love my fixed weeks and use them for personal use -- if I ever did redeem my weeks for points, Marriott would give me plenty of points to work with. But I had an immediately, visceral reaction to the skim, and it's not changed -- I view it the skim as a hidden, disguised (significant) cost, and not indicative of the fairness I had expected from Marriott.

I had long respected Marriott as a customer-oriented company that took care of their loyal customers. I continue to struggle with what I believe is a strong-arm tactic, required by Marriott if you want to use the new system. It has affected my loyalty to Marriott and I generally am an extremely loyal customer.

All this being said, I have enrolled. Marriott properties are among the best in the world, and I expect to one day be able to rent points inexpensively and use them for reservations. I don't expect to ever redeem my properties for points, and therefore will be just a non-active participant, using the system differently than as designed, but I think effectively for me. This is a personal decision for all, and I wish all the best in their evaluation.

I guess, 30+ days later, it is time for me to move on, and I will.

Best to all,

Greg
 
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Dave,

I understand your interest in establishing this, and consolidating the many comments into one thread.

My issues with the Skim are well understood (including by Marriott), and I will try to summarize the reason people should care (and object to), the skim.

My summary:

Skim is bad

Marriott likes Skim

Skim stays

I have a lot more, but that pretty much sums it up for me! Also-everything GregT says!
 
Just wanted to point out that while I have noticed some hijacking, there are a lot of cases where people who aren't complaining about skim bring it up as part of their calculation(s), etc, so then some of the following responses address skim again. Some of the hijacking is not deliberate but following the meandering path of the threads.
 
At this point in time I don't really think it matters anymore. Either you accept it as a cost of changing a legacy week for points (sort of like foreign currancy exchanges at the airport. We all know we're getting ripped off but some do it anyway) or, you don't. If you don't, all you have to do is not convert your week to points.

I'm disappointed because I was anticipating a program much like many of the others out there. I was ready to convert my weeks to points and see what I could do. With the loss of value know labled as the skim, I'll probably never do that. Marriott effectively locked me out of their points system unless I want to buy additional points and pay additional MF's on those points just to reserve a week in the season I want with the view we want. I already have that locked in with my weeks based ownership so, I'm not going to change.

We own units in two points based reservations systems that work great. Why Marriott went the direction they did is beyond me but, the cost to go with their points based system if far to high for me to participate.
 
At this point in time I don't really think it matters anymore. Either you accept it as a cost of changing a legacy week for points (sort of like foreign currancy exchanges at the airport. We all know we're getting ripped off but some do it anyway) or, you don't. If you don't, all you have to do is not convert your week to points.

Doug,

That is true for the folks who have been here for the last five weeks going through this program with a fine-tooth comb. But, there are owners who still no nothing about this issue, and are at presentations right now (well, maybe in Hawaii!) being told about all the great benefits of the changes, without the little caveat about this thing called SKIM! If for no other reason, it needs to stay front and center on TUG for a while...

And, I do agree. Once the situation has been fully worked through be an owner, move on! Marriott is not moving on this issue, and no one expects them to in the future. Each owner has to assess their own situation. Thank goodness this forum is here to give the complete picture...
 
I own seven deeds at five Marriott resorts and I am not bothered by what many refer to as the "skim". I think "skim" is a loaded political word designed to elicit negative emotions rather than enlighten the discussion.

The reason other systems give you the number of points you need to exchange back into your own resort is because you need to use points to stay there. It is all points based. With Interval, you had an exchange fee (and in my opinion it is pretty high). You do not have such a fee with Marriott. It is not like we got something at no cost that now they are taking away.

And remember, this is an EXCHANGE SYSTEM for weeks owners.
 
I own seven deeds at five Marriott resorts and I am not bothered by what many refer to as the "skim". I think "skim" is a loaded political word designed to elicit negative emotions rather than enlighten the discussion.

The reason other systems give you the number of points you need to exchange back into your own resort is because you need to use points to stay there. It is all points based. With Interval, you had an exchange fee (and in my opinion it is pretty high). You do not have such a fee with Marriott. It is not like we got something at no cost that now they are taking away.

And remember, this is an EXCHANGE SYSTEM for weeks owners.

I bet you wouldn't be so complacent about SKIM if you only owned one week. Especially one that is not allocated many points. It's easy for you (or at least easier) to lose a couple days worth to get the benefit of "flexibility," but try losing those same couple days when you only start with 7!! Plus you are benefitting from less fees that you would already pay to lock-off, etc, with so many weeks. However, the one week person most likely ends up paying more fees. You also get a special Premier Plus status that gives you additional flexibility and benefits that most others won't have when joining DP. So it makes sense that you are not bothered by this - you are in the lucky position of being one of those 5% of owners who come out ahead in this system. But don't assume that everyone else will and/or should see this the same way you do.

Seems to me under the new system the small users are asked to subsidize the larger owners - same skim percentage, same fees, but a lot less activity/ rewards. (lock-off, trades, etc. that you used to pay individually for, stays that cost the extra in housekeeping, etc. )

disclaimer: I would actually be at Premier level, but I still feel I'd lose out as I do not own lock-off's, and my high valued weeks still don't equate with other HI high valued weeks due to skim.
 
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Why some can't & don't move on...

Greg's post sums up a lot of what I am feeling and a lot of why I think Marriott should not have included skim - that very big point about the MFs already being paid on our weeks seems to be overlooked.

I don't begrudge any company from making a reasonable profit, but I do expect them to be fair about it. This new system is not fair. If they had merely eliminated uptrades, a lot would be bummed, but most people knew they were getting uptrades and would understand. Instead, they eliminated not only uptrading but equivalent trading unless you tap into your next year's week.

Because they have rolled out the points system, now, whether we convert or not, there are going to be number pushers who compare their II trades to point values. It's going to come up whenever someone feels like they have made a good deal on II. While a few of you may exchange without looking at a point chart, I know a lot will. Because I am planning my next summer vacation, I already know that I'll be able to use way more points with II than I was given even if I factor in an exchange and XYZ fee, and I have a decent amount of points for my week.

For example, I'm looking at a 2BR deposit with II worth 5075 pts and summer travel:
book back into HI - 4575 pts
book XYZ - Orlando 2225 pts
The above assumes no view in HI to a resort that cost a few less pts than my own and going to a "lesser" Marriott in Orlando. This scenario alone is worth at least 6800 pts. Even accounting for fees, show me how I can get that? I hate sacrificing my view, but looking at what I can get instead, at least I can feel compensated (I'd be willing to give up that XYZ if I could have my view - something that I thought points would let me do). If I want, I can also try to get Aruba or Lake Tahoe with an AC. That's worth another 2925 minimum pts (using Aruba no view as a benchmark) for only $299. Certainly, nice perks for giving up a nice week...

I'm sure somewhere somehow someone will come up with some positive points scenarios other than spending 9 weeks in a 2BR at Harbor Club for all of Dec & Jan (which honestly to me seems better than a studio in the summer desert scenario!). I really would like to see it. Show me the numbers! I can understand numbers. I'd be a points supporter immediately if I even found equivalence in the system.

Anyway, I know some people feel this horse is beat to death, but as long as there is skim, it isn't going away. Someone mentioned that there will be people who are annoyed about it in 10 years, and I totally agree. I will probably be one of them! I am not going to judge others for moving on, but on the same token, don't tell me to move on. Mind you, I am not going to give myself an ulcer worrying over it, but I am going to think about the value of my week on the years I go into trading mode. How can I not? Where there is a metric, some people will look. If I had an HGVC week, I'd be doing the same, except I would know that I could book any week in my home resort, no problem, so I wouldn't have a feeling of annoyance.

By the way, we could call skim another name if it's too political. Would that help? How about loss of equivalent trading power, but that might be too negative... We could even call it "built-in exchange fee." However, I'd much rather pay a separate exchange fee for each transaction than lose my ability to make the exchange at all or be required to tap into the next year (thus reducing my trading power in perpetuity) just to get "the same." Whatever name we call it, whether it's skim or built-in exchange fee, the result is the same: reduced trading power.

And even the high value multi-week owner pays the "built-in exchange fee" if he or she converts to points.
 
I will not be joining the new points program, but the skim has little to do with my decision.

The appeal of a points-based timeshare program is its greater flexibility, but that flexibility brings with it increased operating costs. I can accept the concept of the skim as a way to cover the associated expenses for shorter stays and more usage options. I would certainly prefer to see the skim used to cover those additional costs rather than higher maintenance fees. The skim affects most those who exchange most, and I suppose that is as it should be.

Following wise advice from others, I chose to purchase at resorts that I like to visit. I trade only occasionally, and I expect that I will continue to primarily visit my home resorts in the future. So for me, joining the new points system doesn't really make sense (with or without the skim).

While I can appreciate the resourcefulness of those who are able to leverage one week into four through savvy trading, I frankly don't have the time or energy to focus on that. I am mostly interested in preserving my ability to make 12-month reservations at my home resorts. I'm hopeful of being able to do that as in the past without worrying about points or skims. Given the recent fiasco experienced by others when trying to use the new points-based reservation system, I feel I'm making the right choice to remain a legacy weeks owner.

I have been satisfied with my past exchanges through Interval International. I expect that Maui Ocean Club will continue to trade well outside of the new points program.
 
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On the merits, the features of the Marriott point system would appear to rank at the bottom of any comparative analysis of point systems. As I understand it, no other point system skims. Many have immortal points.

But here's the real question for me - is the skim is a harbinger?

If Marriott will bake a concept like skim into their program, respond only obliquely and slowly to straightforward questions about the operation of the new exchange system and tolerate (if not encourage) sales staff misrepresentations regarding numerous plan and special offer provisions to the customer base,

what's next?

Marriott will tweak this plan over time. Will the plan provisions change in a positive or negative way? Time will tell.
 
But here's the real question for me - is the skim is a harbinger?
It all boils down to trust. Does Marriott deserve the trust of its large and loyal customer base now that the details of this new points program have become known? Personally, I have lost a lot of trust in Marriott since June 20.
 
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Dave,

For definition, I propose an example if a week needs 4,500 points to book via Marriott. But Marriott offers you 4,100 points if you redeem your week for points. You've been skimmed 400 points, or approximately 10%. We think the average skim is between 7-22%, across all properties.

In the case of floating weeks, I think it makes the most sense to think of skim as how much one gets shortchanged relative to the average points required to trade into your season.

The way I see it, a float week has some trading power. If you got the average points required to trade into your season, then the total points given to owners at a resort would equal the total points required to fill up that resort. Hence, the average points required to trade into your season represents the "fair" trading power of your week. Getting anything less than that is "skim. " It creates a situation where Marriott awards owners in a season less than they require to fill up that season. Those are excess points Marriott can then rent out in the form of points or days. And ALL owners apparently got less than the average of their season, including fixed week owners.

If you are not sure if you are getting skimmed, use this spreadsheet to compare to the average in your season. The difference between the average points in your season and what Marriott gave you is the "skim". This is equivalent to a fee (e.g. $0.50/point) which is incurred once you convert to points and affects your ability to do like for like exchanges. Where you use those skimmed points and whether you use them to make a reservation at your home resort in a low demand week is irrelevant for purposes of understanding skim. The points is that if Marriott gave owners the average points for their season, owners would have more points to work with.
 
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That is true for the folks who have been here for the last five weeks going through this program with a fine-tooth comb. But, there are owners who still no nothing about this issue, and are at presentations right now (well, maybe in Hawaii!) being told about all the great benefits of the changes, without the little caveat about this thing called SKIM! If for no other reason, it needs to stay front and center on TUG for a while...

there are a lot of cases where people who aren't complaining about skim bring it up as part of their calculation(s), etc, so then some of the following responses address skim again. Some of the hijacking is not deliberate but following the meandering path of the threads.

Anyway, I know some people feel this horse is beat to death, but as long as there is skim, it isn't going away. Someone mentioned that there will be people who are annoyed about it in 10 years, and I totally agree. I will probably be one of them! I am not going to judge others for moving on, but on the same token, don't tell me to move on.

As for putting the skim topic in a thread that will likely fall to page 30 by next week, I couldn't agree more with the posters above. The skim is a real issue and comes up whenever the "flat fee" fallacy come up, whenever someone compares an II trade to a points trade etc. The only way it will go away is if Marriott makes it go away...

I respect the fact that some frequent posters who have not lost faith in Marriott may be sick and tired of hearing about skim. I will certainly keep that in mind and will try not to bring it up unnecessarily. But in cases where it's warranted people will bring it up, whether it's me or someone else.

But just for the record, I also have to put up with ever optimistic posts that are full of confidence Marriott will "right the ship". At least the skim is very real and grounded in reality. On the other hand, I have yet to see a glimmer of light that Marriott is trying to make things right. They just give people more and more reasons to complain about this program by the day...
 
Many posters are upset over the skim. Is this really a significant issue? The way I look at it is not. I will look at three resorts to explain my point, Ocean Pointe (MPB), Frenchmans Cove (MFC) and Newport Coast Villas (NVC). I own at MPB and MFC but not at NVC.

First, lets assume that no owner would use points to make a reservation if the point total he receives is less than the point total required to make the reservation. Next let’s put aside trades into II or MRP’s and just assume that this year, I used the calendars for 2012, everyone uses his week at the home resort. To keep this simple I’m going to use one room at each resort in all seasons. At MPB I’ll use a 2BDRM OS unit. At MFC and NCV a 2BDRM was used.

At MPB there are three seasons Platinum, Gold and Silver. Platinum has 16 weeks, Gold 13 weeks and Silver 20 weeks. There are no Plus weeks at MPB. In the Platinum season there are six weeks where the week is given more points, 100 to be exact, than it costs to reserve with points. The other 13 weeks it costs more to reserve than you a given. In some cases a lot more. President’s week is about a 2000 point difference in Marriott’s favor. If everyone reserves points when its to their advantage and weeks when its not to their advantage then the owners come out 600 points ahead and Marriott loses 600 points. Is 600 points gain over an entire season a big deal? No but it is a loss. If the skim were eliminated and every owner at every resort made a 100 point profit on every week I think the comments about skim would be positive rather than negative. Gold week owners lose on every week in their season so those folks will all reserve their weeks as weeks. No gain for them but no loss either. Silver week owners fare better than Platinum and Gold. There are twenty weeks in Silver. Twelve weeks are positive for a total of 5950 points and 8 weeks are negative. That’s a total of 6550 points to the benefit of the owners.

At MFC the picture is not as rosy. There are no weeks in any season that come out on the positive side for any owner. The owners at this resort all have to reserve as weeks not points. While the resort was given a low point value for its weeks the up side is that it costs less to reserve with points. This isn’t a benefit to the owners at MFC but it sure is for other owners who want to trade into MFC. As an example a February week owner in MPB can trade into February at MFC and make 200 points on the deal. There is no way anyone can convince me that February in Florida is nicer than February in ST Thomas. I think Marriott screwed the pooch on this one. In this case I consider a trade for MPB into MFC an uptrade with 200 points left over. I will try for this exact points reservation and if I’m successful I will look at it as if I’m the one that skimmed Marriott.

At NVC the Gold season has 22 weeks, platinum 28 and there are two plus weeks. The Gold owners are in the same boat as the Gold owners at MPB. There is not one week where they win on the point difference. Theses owners should continue to use as they have in the past. The Platinum owners are evenly split. There are 14 weeks where they profit and 14 weeks where they lose. Again, if everyone reserves advantageously either under points or weeks the total win for the owners would be 8050 points.

So of 151 weeks that I’ve listed over three highly desirable resorts 32 are in the positive skim column and 119 are in the negative column. That works out to 21% of owners would benefit under points. That’s better than the 5% that has been mentioned in a previous thread. My point in this post is not to prove skim doesn’t exist, it does if you allow it to, but rather to point out that there are ways to play the new system to your benefit. I don’t think my analysis is going to convert anyone over to a point’s supporter. Instead of dwelling on the fact that we might have been handed a lemon, I prefer to make lemonade. I’d rather make Gin but they didn’t give us any Juniper berries.

One more thing, I did pick only three resorts. I’m sure some can pick three different ones and come up with entirely different results. Again, I’m not trying to convert anyone I’m just pointing out that the new system can be manipulated to our benefit.
 
"I bet you wouldn't be so complacent about SKIM if you only owned one week. Especially one that is not allocated many points. It's easy for you (or at least easier) to lose a couple days worth to get the benefit of "flexibility," but try losing those same couple days when you only start with 7!!"

My response: The number of weeks I own has nothing to do with my view. Any one week owner can still get his/her full week. And in the vast majority of cases they can get 7 or more days at another resort. Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.

Suppose I only owned my one Sabal Palms red week. It gets 2150 points, which is not a lot. I can reserve any week the old way in the red season. Or I can use points and stay longer at SP in the off season. Or I can use my 2150 points to stay at other resorts, many for more than a week. I would not expect to be able to get a full week at the high cost resorts.

I do admit that my fee savings is a greater benefit, but you need to keep it in perspective. I spent over $200,000 buying timeshares so I cannot accept that you are subsidizing me!
 
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We own 4 weeks in Aruba.Under the old system we were able to exchange the weeks for Marriott points of 90,000.You could NOT get our week through Marriott for 90,000 points.There was ALWAYS a skim.
Since we use all of our weeks we were told by a staff member in Aruba that the new point system is not for us.We should stay with the old system.
We can always bank a week with II if we can't use one and be able to get it back later with nominal exchange fees.
Better yet,we can book a week through REDWEEK or such with the cost being sometimes less than the MFs.
 
So of 151 weeks that I’ve listed over three highly desirable resorts 32 are in the positive skim column and 119 are in the negative column. That works out to 21% of owners would benefit under points. That’s better than the 5% that has been mentioned in a previous thread. My point in this post is not to prove skim doesn’t exist, it does if you allow it to, but rather to point out that there are ways to play the new system to your benefit. I don’t think my analysis is going to convert anyone over to a point’s supporter. Instead of dwelling on the fact that we might have been handed a lemon, I prefer to make lemonade. I’d rather make Gin but they didn’t give us any Juniper berries.

One more thing, I did pick only three resorts. I’m sure some can pick three different ones and come up with entirely different results. Again, I’m not trying to convert anyone I’m just pointing out that the new system can be manipulated to our benefit.

Jim, your interpretation of skim is just different than what appears to be most people's interpretation.

If one agrees that the skim is the difference between the average points required to trade into your season and what you were allocated then what you say is incorrect. Using that definition:

  • 100% of weeks fall in the "negative skim column"


  • Where you make a reservation is completely irrelevant. In fact there is no more "home resort" once you convert to points.

It's ok to disagree on definitions but let's first clarify what we mean. Then people can decide for themselves.

Let's focus particularly on your resort - Ocean Pointe Silver. Those are weeks 18-21 and 35-50 below:

Week Date Season 2BR-OS 2BR-OF 3BR-OF
1 7-Jan-11 P 4225 5225 5900
2 14-Jan-11 P 4225 5225 5900
3 21-Jan-11 P 4225 5225 5900
4 28-Jan-11 P 4725 5900 6500
5 4-Feb-11 P 4725 5900 6500
6 11-Feb-11 P 4725 5900 6500
7 18-Feb-11 P 6175 7675 8500
8 25-Feb-11 P 4725 5900 6500
9 4-Mar-11 P 4725 5900 6500
10 11-Mar-11 P 4725 5900 6500
11 18-Mar-11 P 4725 5900 6500
12 25-Mar-11 P 4725 5900 6500
13 1-Apr-11 P 4725 5900 6500
14 8-Apr-11 P 4225 5225 5900
15 15-Apr-11 P 4225 5225 5900
16 22-Apr-11 P 4225 5225 5900
17 29-Apr-11 P 4225 5225 5900

18 6-May-11 S 4225 5225 5900
19 13-May-11 S 2950 3675 4000
20 20-May-11 S 2950 3675 4000
21 27-May-11 S 2950 3675 4000

22 3-Jun-11 G 2950 3675 4000
23 10-Jun-11 G 2950 3675 4000
24 17-Jun-11 G 2950 3675 4000
25 24-Jun-11 G 2950 3675 4000
26 1-Jul-11 G 2950 3675 4000
27 8-Jul-11 G 2950 3675 4000
28 15-Jul-11 G 2950 3675 4000
29 22-Jul-11 G 2950 3675 4000
30 29-Jul-11 G 2950 3675 4000
31 5-Aug-11 G 2950 3675 4000
32 12-Aug-11 G 2950 3675 4000
33 19-Aug-11 G 2950 3675 4000
34 26-Aug-11 G 2950 3675 4000

35 2-Sep-11 S 2000 2675 2900
36 9-Sep-11 S 2000 2675 2900
37 16-Sep-11 S 2000 2675 2900
38 23-Sep-11 S 2000 2675 2900
39 30-Sep-11 S 2950 3675 4000
40 7-Oct-11 S 2950 3675 4000
41 14-Oct-11 S 2950 3675 4000
42 21-Oct-11 S 2950 3675 4000
43 28-Oct-11 S 2950 3675 4000
44 4-Nov-11 S 4225 5225 5900
45 11-Nov-11 S 4225 5225 5900
46 18-Nov-11 S 4225 5225 5900
47 25-Nov-11 S 4225 5225 5900
48 2-Dec-11 S 4225 5225 5900
49 9-Dec-11 S 4225 5225 5900
50 16-Dec-11 S 4225 5225 5900

51 23-Dec-11 P 4725 5900 6500
52 30-Dec-11 P 5175 6400 7175


Average Silver 3270 4095 4540
Average Gold 2950 3675 4000
Average Platinum 4641 5771 6420


My claim is that a 3BR in that season should get 4540 points because that is the average of the season. In reality it got 4225 points. So I say there is skim of 315 points. It doesn't matter what you do with the 4225 points - you lost 315.

I believe you are saying that you can book some weeks in that season for 2900 points or 4000 points so you come out ahead or even way ahead. I say it doesn't really matter because if you had 4540 points you could do the same thing and have 315 more points at the end of the day.

According to your interpretation, Marriott could have given you 3000 points instead of the already skimmed 4225 points. You should still be happy with that because you can book weeks 36-38 and come out ahead.

By the way, would you be happy with 3000 points for your 3 BR?
 
Suppose I only owned my one Sabal Palms red week. It gets 2150 points, which is not a lot. I can reserve any week the old way in the red season. Or I can use points and stay longer at SP in the off season. Or I can use my 2150 points to stay at other resorts, many for more than a week. I would not expect to be able to get a full week at the high cost resorts.

The average of Red Season weeks at Sabal Palms is 2268. You got 118 less. Is that not skim?

By what you say, getting 1500 points (instead of the skimmed 2150) would have also been ok for the reasons you state:

  • I can reserve any week the old way in the red season.

  • I can use points and stay longer at SP in the off season (white weeks require 1450 points and one red week, week 50, is also 1450 points).

  • I can use my 1500 points to stay at other resorts

You make it sound as long as you can reserve some week in your season with what you got (e.g. week 50 at Sabal for 1450 pts when the average of the season is 2268) that's ok.

No offense, but this doesn't make any sense to me.
 
First, lets assume that no owner would use points to make a reservation if the point total he receives is less than the point total required to make the reservation.

Yes, you can try to game the system if you can travel off season, but anyone who books a week with points is getting less than what they gave. Even if you don't choose to book certain weeks, what about someone trading in from somewhere else? Because of the "built-in exchange fee," anyone who trades in with points is totally cancelling out any savings someone else sees from gaming. If you use points to trade at other resorts, you have also paid a price for it.

The fact of the matter is even if they eliminated skim, the high demand weeks would still be used. Owners would not all the sudden make a profit on the system because that assumes they can all travel during lower demand weeks.

Or I can use my 2150 points to stay at other resorts, many for more than a week. I would not expect to be able to get a full week at the high cost resorts.

At HHI in the winter or the desert in summer, yes...

Seriously, that many points is quite limiting. Not everyone can travel in the lowest season, and honestly, at that point, many are better off buying a Getaway since their MFs are much higher than the cost of renting off season.

I do admit that my fee savings is a greater benefit, but you need to keep it in perspective. I spent over $200,000 buying timeshares so I cannot accept that you are subsidizing me!

The skim only applies if you convert to points. With points, even with your multiple, high-valued weeks, you would end up paying quite a bit in fees to Marriott (and if anything you might expect they would give you of all people a break). Have you calculated your point shortage just to see if the "fees" are reasonable or not? Maybe to you it really is fair, but some of your weeks are subject to some pretty big skim. If you truly use the system to make lots of 2 & 3 night stays, those built-in fees might very well be reasonable, but otherwise they are actually pretty high.

IMO, you can only say skim doesn't matter if you plan to convert your weeks to points! If you're joining just for fee savings then of course it doesn't affect you.
 
Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.

This seems to be one of the main arguments for the point system, but how does this make skim OK?

I understand you being a little annoyed with downtrading over the years. I also understand a little resentment with seeing people at your more expensive resorts who traded in from somewhere with half the MFs and a fraction of the initial buy-in cost. You were subsidizing their vacation! Seeing uptraders at my resort just made me feel like I spent more than I needed (but then I bought developer, which I also think was not the wisest thing financially).

OK, make things equitable with points. Stop the uptrades, except in Flextime. A lot wouldn't exactly be overjoyed, right, because they have benefited from uptrades. However, making things equitable would not have resulted in all this outrage. If things were equitable, people would understand the system. If, instead of "built-in exchange fees," people could see exactly what they were paying for, people would understand.
 
My response: Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.

Why not? If someone is willing to travel on shorter notice and willing to pick up the rooms not taken by those with higher trading power, why shouldn't they be able to trade into a "higher cost" resort.

Also, let you forget that Marriott sold thousands of rooms selling exactly that feature. Now that I'm more educated, I understand the "buy where you're willing travel" and "buy close enough to drive to" theories. They make sense and definitely protect you against rule changes in regards to trading.

But Park City is extremely close to where I live....close enough to drive to? Yeah...20 minutes away. Other than one year when we had a family reunion and reserved a bunch of rooms to bring family in, I can't think of anytime I personally would need to spend a week there. Yet Marriott sold how many countless weeks to Salt Lake City residents on the pitch that trading was the game to play and that by buying the lockoff I would even get 2 for 1. And I assure you, when they discussed trading at the sales table, they weren't pitching the ability to trade into the off-season at Gitmo.

Once I learned the "game," I've been able to do fairly well (especially using flexchange) and although I now know I was crushed on the purchase price, I'm still able to consider myself happy because of the vacations I've taken.

So call me the ignorant person who bought into it or not, but Marriott sold the weeks based on the ability to trade them, even at 2 for 1 using the lockoff and sorry for expecting to do that. This new program would make it impossible to make the trades I have in the past. Fair enough...I won't join. I signed the contract knowing that Marriott had the ability to make changes at anytime. I figured it would happen.

But what I didn't count on was the resentment that I'm seeing from those who own more expensive weeks and are disturbed by the fact that "common folk" like myself have been able to infiltrate their "higher cost" resorts, even if getting there meant staying up until 3:00 in the morning to pick up a last minute week on flexchange. I assure you the salesperson never mentioned I'd have to do that.

My two cents...(worth only one if I join)
 
Yet Marriott sold how many countless weeks to Salt Lake City residents on the pitch that trading was the game to play and that by buying the lockoff I would even get 2 for 1. And I assure you, when they discussed trading at the sales table, they weren't pitching the ability to trade into the off-season at Gitmo.
....
But what I didn't count on was the resentment that I'm seeing from those who own more expensive weeks and are disturbed by the fact that "common folk" like myself have been able to infiltrate their "higher cost" resorts, even if getting there meant staying up until 3:00 in the morning to pick up a last minute week on flexchange. I assure you the salesperson never mentioned I'd have to do that.

This is a very good point, too. OK, say the salespeople all lied and we were supposed to see through this. We technically only bought our deeded week and nothing else, but that was the Marriott-approved salespitch.

Just because I wasn't savvy enough to buy cheap and trade up doesn't mean the new system makes things better. And honestly, my only problem with uptraders is that they were smarter than me for a long time :)! I love good deals, so I have to admire what people have accomplished on their dime. For those who remain in II, at least for a while, they can still get more for the dollar than I can, but I also appreciate that I do have some benefits: I have to get up early to reserve my primo week, but I know I have it w/o the waiting game, and I never worry about if I have the trading power to pull something.
 
This seems to be one of the main arguments for the point system, but how does this make skim OK?

I understand you being a little annoyed with downtrading over the years. I also understand a little resentment with seeing people at your more expensive resorts who traded in from somewhere with half the MFs and a fraction of the initial buy-in cost. You were subsidizing their vacation! Seeing uptraders at my resort just made me feel like I spent more than I needed (but then I bought developer, which I also think was not the wisest thing financially).

OK, make things equitable with points. Stop the uptrades, except in Flextime. A lot wouldn't exactly be overjoyed, right, because they have benefited from uptrades. However, making things equitable would not have resulted in all this outrage. If things were equitable, people would understand the system. If, instead of "built-in exchange fees," people could see exactly what they were paying for, people would understand.

You're unhappy because some low MF owner traded into your resort? Why do you care?

The owner of that unit paid the MF assigned to that unit and time. Unless someone put a gun to that owners head, he made a voluntary decision to trade his occupancy for something else he preferred.

Whether that's an up, down or sideways trade is that owner's private business - it matters not a whit to you.

If you don't want to trade, don't trade. Up down or sideways. But don't take away someone else's freedom to choose to trade or not trade because you don't happen to agree with the terms of that trade.
 
My response: The number of weeks I own has nothing to do with my view. Any one week owner can still get his/her full week. And in the vast majority of cases they can get 7 or more days at another resort. Of course they cannot get 7 days at a higher cost resort, nor should they.

HUH? What about the SAME cost resort? Since you now "own" at Waiohai and Ko Olina, you know that a Waiohai owner is well short of reserving the same week at Ko Olina with the same view. And for the Ko Olina owner, it is even worse going back to Waiohai.

I think I understand that you are a Marriott employee (sorry if I am mistaken), but I am struggling to understand your perspective here, if you are an owner....

Whether or not the points disparity (skim) is real is not the issue here. I have not yet made up my mind what I am going to do with the new program, but I can tell you that I have a lot less respect for Marriott because of the skim, and I know that the old way of using my weeks is now different...
 
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