Clever but sleazy E-Bay seller trick?

Hi Gang,

A couple of days ago, I low-balled a timeshare purchase on E-Bay by entering the highest amount I was willing to pay a few seconds before the auction ended. The current high bid for the timeshare was significantly below my max amount entered when I entered it.

I lost the auction to someone who also bid in the last few seconds but was willing to pay more than my max bid amount. No biggie.

Today I got a “second chance” offer from the seller willing to sell me the timeshare for my original max bid amount, which was a fair amount higher than the third highest bidder in the auction. The ID’s of all the bidders wasn’t posted.

Soooo . . . . . I was thinking . . . . . what’s stopping an E-Bay seller from using a dummy E-Bay account to enter a super high bid in the last few seconds of an auction in order to max out everyone’s highest amount, and then offering a “second chance” to the second place finisher at that bidder's highest amount entered? This would allow the seller to get the highest amount possible, even if there weren’t a legitimate competing bidder there to drive up the price.

Would you go through with such a deal assuming the seller has stellar ratings (which he/she does) and it is still within the range you were willing to pay if it had legitimately gotten that high during the actual auction?

-nodge

nodge said:

Hi Gang,

A couple of days ago, I low-balled a timeshare purchase on E-Bay by entering my highest amount I am willing to pay a few seconds before the auction ended.

I lost the auction to someone who also bid in the last few second and was willing to pay more. No biggie.

Today I got a “second chance” offer from the seller willing to sell me the timeshare for my original max bid amount, which was a fair amount higher than the third highest bidder. The ID’s of all the bidders wasn’t posted.

Soooo . . . . . I was thinking . . . . . what’s stopping an E-Bay seller from posting a super high bid in the last few seconds of an auction in order to max out everyone’s highest amount, and then offering a “second chance” to the second place finisher at that high amount? This would allow the seller to get the highest amount possible, even if there weren’t a legitimate competing bidder there to drive up the price?

Would you go through with such a deal (assuming the seller has stellar ratings, which he/she does)?

-nodge

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NOT ONE THING!!! and I believe that it has happened to me. Especially telling if the last minute bidder has a 0 - 5 sales history - and I realize some are completely private so that you cannot tell who they are at all and what their sales rating is.

elaine

nodge said:

Hi Gang,

A couple of days ago, I low-balled a timeshare purchase on E-Bay by entering my highest amount I am willing to pay a few seconds before the auction ended. The current high bid for the timeshare was significantly below my max amount entered when I entered it.

I lost the auction to someone who also bid in the last few seconds but was willing to pay more than my max bid amount. No biggie.

Today I got a “second chance” offer from the seller willing to sell me the timeshare for my original max bid amount, which was a fair amount higher than the third highest bidder in the auction. The ID’s of all the bidders wasn’t posted.

Soooo . . . . . I was thinking . . . . . what’s stopping an E-Bay seller from using a dummy E-Bay account to enter a super high bid in the last few seconds of an auction in order to max out everyone’s highest amount, and then offering a “second chance” to the second place finisher at that bidder's highest amount entered? This would allow the seller to get the highest amount possible, even if there weren’t a legitimate competing bidder there to drive up the price.

Would you go through with such a deal assuming the seller has stellar ratings (which he/she does) and it is still within the range you were willing to pay if it had legitimately gotten that high during the actual auction?

-nodge

Click to expand...

How many bids has the high bidder retracted or failed to close and how many feedbacks does he have? If I thought it was a shill, I'd offer the seller a little more than the 3rd highest bid since this is how much you would have paid for it if the shill wasn't involved. I'd also report this activity to Ebay and have them try to determine if it was a shill bid.

If the purchase price is within your bid, does it really matter. I am sure there is a lot of sellers bidding to raise purchase prices. What you are willing to pay is ultimately up to you.

This goes for all of ebay, not just timeshare options. Shill bidding is illegal and if they catch you, you lose your sellers account. I think it's a huge risk for a seller to do this.

Katherine

Robert D said:

How many bids has the high bidder retracted or failed to close and how many feedbacks does he have?

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The seller made the auction totally private. It doesn't even show the number of the high bidder's feedbacks or when that bidder opened his/her E-Bay account.

Robert D said:

If I thought it was a shill, I'd offer the seller a little more than the 3rd highest bid since this is how much you would have paid for it if the shill wasn't involved.

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Seems fair and reasonable . . . and a good way to test the seller's character. I'll give it a whirl.

Robert D said:

I'd also report this activity to Ebay and have them try to determine if it was a shill bid.

Click to expand...

I'll do that should the seller fail the above character test.

Thanks!
-nodge

As I have said before automatic shill bidding is a big problem on eBay. I have complained to eBay and eBay has responded with a canned message that it has opened a file but, unfortunately, would be unable to tell me the results - and nothing ever happened. The guy I complained about is still doing it on luxury watches.

eBay has regulations about shill bidding but, IMO, does not enforce them.

I posted on March 1, 2010:

"amundsun, ... This is an old eBay trick that is called "shill bidding." It is supposed to be against eBay policy. But, eBay does absolutely nothing to police "shill bidding."

The most egregious abuse is when a seller sets up a very high bid to be made at the last second on a luxury item. It is made automatically. Whatever you bid, the bidding machine bids more.

Another element is that "to protect the bidders' privacy" (lol!), the bidders full aliases are not visible.

You can see the automatic bids and when they were made by clicking to see additional bidding information.

Then, sometimes you are sent a "second offer" at the last shill bid price. But, most of the time, the "buyer" refused to complete the deal and the property is merely relisted.

It's just another way of setting a reserve and talking to the bidders about how much they will go up to. But, the reserve is not disclosed. It's the biggest scam on eBay and one that someday a State Attorney General will bust wide open to eBay's embarrassment and dismay. ... eom"

http://tugbbs.com/forums/showthread.php?p=874141&highlight=Automatic+shill+bidding#post874141 ... eom

I believe you are all on to something here. One auction that I bid on the other bidder had zero feedback as opposed to my three hundred....


This sounds like an investigation by EBAY is needed

I've always thought this was just part of the auction atomosphere? I've been the Shill bidder and had friends do it for me...I've seen this happen in the brick and morter real estate market too, You tell a potential buyer...that there are Other Offers on the table so he may want to get in quick or up his bid
I've helped friends sell things on the street, "Wow, your going to sell it for that low of a price? Man if i had the money i'd give you (that price + $2), hold on let me see if i can get the money"

Its just a way to negotiate...something along the lines of "This guy over there offered me $XX, but FOR YOU, i'll sell it for $XY"

It give a market to a product that might not have one, makes it seem more desirable....How would Ebay police this?

decide on the price you are willing to pay for the item - and snipe it.
why worry about a situation that you cannot alter - especially in a massive internet-based auction system like eBay? eBay is likely not going to do about it - and even if they tried - shill bidders will find a way around it.
if you get a 2nd chance offer - then decide if you are still willing to buy it - or offer even a lower price...

Ride, ... Shill bidding is one reason why all these "completed" auctions on eBay may not be actual sales and why the thread about Starwood sales on eBay is woefully inaccurate.

As for eBay, here's some text and a link to the policy:

"Reporting shill bidding

Learn more about reporting listing violations. If you think you see shill bidding taking place on a listing, report it to us. Be sure to provide the member's user ID and the item number. We thoroughly investigate every report we receive. Often what appears to be shill bidding isn't a violation. If there is evidence of shill bidding, we will take action, which may include listing cancellation or referral to law enforcement. However, our privacy policy prevents us from disclosing the details of our investigation to other members, including the person who reported the issue."

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/seller-shill-bidding.html

My experience is that if you report shill bidding to eBay, nothing ever happens.

Here's a link to the store of a guy who regularly gets 20-30 bids in every auction. Other eBay watch sellers selling similar (and even the same) watches get no bids for weeks at a time. In most cases with this seller, the bidding process ends on these "no reserve" auctions with a bid in excess being placed in the last second (or two) and the item, time and time again, being relisted in another "no reserve" auction.

http://shop.ebay.com/theprestigeboutique/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686

Not saying his watches are phonies. They aren't. They are great and authentic. I own one. I finally gave up and bought it for what he wanted to sell it at. It's just that, IMO, he uses automatic shill bidding to drive up the price, falsely simulate interest and other bidders and is being used to set a reserve bid at the end of the "no reserve" auctions.

Sorry you see nothing wrong in it. ... eom

I wouldn't think the seller would risk his ebay account. Don't really understand what Ridewithme is saying...

Anyway, I used to be suspicious of ebay sellers, but ever since we had that 2 bedroom Kauai oceanfront unit at the Wyndham in Lihue show up over and over again as a new listing, and finally sold to a TUGger for $1.00, I realize there aren't a lot of takers of timeshares on ebay currently. I was sure that week would get bid up to $1K or more, with everyone talking about the view and the bargain it would be, etc. But apparently that didn't help the bid at all.

I think the second-chance offer is just a sign of the times. Someone backed out, and the seller wanted to find an owner without listing again.

"I think the second-chance offer is just a sign of the times. Someone backed out, and the seller wanted to find an owner without listing again."

Even where the seller creates a phony "back out" by submitting an automatic shill bid at the end of the auction?

Or, without paying eBay for another listing.

Or, to take the transaction out of eBay where there are certain protections for buyers.

A sign of the times? ROFL! ... eom

nodge said:

Hi Gang,

A couple of days ago, I low-balled a timeshare purchase on E-Bay by entering the highest amount I was willing to pay a few seconds before the auction ended. The current high bid for the timeshare was significantly below my max amount entered when I entered it.

I lost the auction to someone who also bid in the last few seconds but was willing to pay more than my max bid amount. No biggie.

Today I got a “second chance” offer from the seller willing to sell me the timeshare for my original max bid amount, which was a fair amount higher than the third highest bidder in the auction. The ID’s of all the bidders wasn’t posted.

Soooo . . . . . I was thinking . . . . . what’s stopping an E-Bay seller from using a dummy E-Bay account to enter a super high bid in the last few seconds of an auction in order to max out everyone’s highest amount, and then offering a “second chance” to the second place finisher at that bidder's highest amount entered? This would allow the seller to get the highest amount possible, even if there weren’t a legitimate competing bidder there to drive up the price.

Would you go through with such a deal assuming the seller has stellar ratings (which he/she does) and it is still within the range you were willing to pay if it had legitimately gotten that high during the actual auction?

-nodge

Click to expand...

It all depends upon how badly you want the property. The seller is offering it to you for the price that you bid. I am skeptical of any second chance offers for the reasons you gave. I would wait for a similar property to be auctioned again and try to get it for a lower price.

I have enjoyed reading your posts and have found you to be a very reliable source of information. Keep up the good work and continue to educate us all.

Depends on how badly you want the timeshare and what the winning bid price is ($1,000s vs $1s). It does not cost the seller anything to re-list if he can show ebay the winning bidder backed out or refuse to close the deal.

Ridewithme38 said:

I've always thought this was just part of the auction atomosphere? I've been the Shill bidder and had friends do it for me...I've seen this happen in the brick and morter real estate market too, You tell a potential buyer...that there are Other Offers on the table so he may want to get in quick or up his bid
I've helped friends sell things on the street, "Wow, your going to sell it for that low of a price? Man if i had the money i'd give you (that price + $2), hold on let me see if i can get the money"

Its just a way to negotiate...something along the lines of "This guy over there offered me $XX, but FOR YOU, i'll sell it for $XY"

It give a market to a product that might not have one, makes it seem more desirable....How would Ebay police this?

Click to expand...

Do you believe this is ethical?

Ken555 said:

Do you believe this is ethical?

Click to expand...

I don't know whats Unethical about it...a shill bidder can only raise the bid so high without not being able to sell the item..Its setting a Reserve without stating that there is one...When i see the "Reserve Not Met" sign, i don't bid...

It's nothing more then setting a value for an item without going through the Ebay Reserve Process...I don't see anything UNethical about it...Unless you consider an Ebay Reserve Value unethical?

jarta said:

Or, without paying eBay for another listing.

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You can usually relist an unsold item (within some short period of time), and if it sells the second time around, eBay doesn't charge you for the fee for the second listing...

Final value fees apply only to the listing that resulted in a sale.

Ridewithme38 said:

I don't know whats Unethical about it...a shill bidder can only raise the bid so high without not being able to sell the item..Its setting a Reserve without stating that there is one...When i see the "Reserve Not Met" sign, i don't bid...

It's nothing more then setting a value for an item without going through the Ebay Reserve Process...I don't see anything UNethical about it...Unless you consider an Ebay Reserve Value unethical?

Click to expand...

Sort of like comparing apples and oranges... except they are both fruits.
Better to compare apples and poverty - except they both keep the doctor away...

I guess 'ethical' is in the eyes of the beholder - but there is a difference between shill bidding and setting a reserve based on the psychology of bidding. The reason setting a reserve in an eBay auction (esp TSs) is a bad idea is because it keeps bidders away - and that is counter-productive to the intent of bidding auctions - and that is to create a bidding war to drive the price up (and why I set my price - and snipe). Shill bidding - which is not allowed according to eBay policies - is not like setting a reserve. The intent of a shill intent is to drive bids up - setting a reserve does not do this. Setting a reserve is telling the bidder that a certain minimum will be accepted in an honest and upfront way. Shill bidding is the opposite of setting a reserve - and in fact does not have the same end result. 'Opposite' by definition is not the 'same'.

I referred to TS auctions above - because TS auctions are non-binding for both sellers and buyers, therefore setting a reserve is a bad idea.

nodge said:

Seems fair and reasonable . . . and a good way to test the seller's character. I'll give it a whirl.

Click to expand...

I heard back from the seller . . . .

He said . . . and I'm not making this up . . . that he actually had 3 identical timeshares to sell and the original high bidder ended up buying two of them and he would sell the third one to me at my max bid price but nothing lower than that and certainly no where near as low as the third highest bidder's max bid.

I passed.

The thrill of an impulse eBay timeshare purchase may have finally met its match.

-nodge

So, I guess when it gets "relisted," it will be that third one he'll be selling, and not the first two.

Re shill bidding...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill_bidding

Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1] because of the frequently fraudulent and damaging character of their actions. However, if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk of loss, but merely generates "buzz", the shill's actions may be legal. For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience", is a type of legal shill.

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Shills, or "potted plants", are sometimes employed in auctions. Driving prices up with phony bids, they seek to provoke a bidding war among other participants. Often they are told by the seller precisely how high to bid, as the seller actually pays the price (to himself, of course) if the item does not sell, losing only the auction fees. Shilling has a substantially higher rate of occurrence in online auctions, where any user with multiple accounts (and IP addresses) can shill without aid of participants. Many online auction sites employ sophisticated (and usually secret) methods to detect collusion. The online auction site eBay forbids shilling; its rules do not allow friends or employees of a person selling an item to bid on the item.

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nodge said:

I heard back from the seller . . . .

He said . . . and I'm not making this up . . . that he actually had 3 identical timeshares to sell and the original high bidder ended up buying two of them and he would sell the third one to me at my max bid price but nothing lower than that and certainly no where near as low as the third highest bidder's max bid.

-nodge

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Maybe I'm overly skeptical but I'd put that story in the same category as the one where the lady in the Walmart parking lot said she was trying to get to her Uncle's house and wanted me to give her a dollar for gas.

IMO you did good to pass.

DavidnRobin said:

...I guess 'ethical' is in the eyes of the beholder...

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I guess it all depends on what the definition of "is" is, then? Yikes! What a cynical lot we Tuggers are.

Nodge, good on you! The seller's tactics seem very shaky - and I'd be skeptical, too - and more than a little ticked off. If an eBay seller wants to put a bottom floor on his price - THAT'S WHAT A RESERVE IS FOR!!! People think they're being clever, but shill bidding IS unethical. I've read many of your posts - you're very saavy and are sure to find another great deal. Sorry you lost out on this auction - I hope you'll be able to buy the same timeshare at an even lower price.

Weed them out 1 at a time but how?

I have received a second chance bid from an ebay seller and when I called he was the most rube ignorant person I've met in a long time. When I asked him why he did the things he did on ebay he said it was none of my business and who was I to question him as he'd been around ebay much longer than I. His memorable vacations and probably another one run by him blocked me from bidding on future auctions.:ignore:
Fine. His loss. I've taken my purchases to others on ebay and have been very happy with the way I've been treated. I also complained to ebay and I received the "mean nothing", "canned" automatic reply.

levatino said:

If the purchase price is within your bid, does it really matter. I am sure there is a lot of sellers bidding to raise purchase prices. What you are willing to pay is ultimately up to you.

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Yes, it does matter. Shill bidding is like "being lied to" and nobody likes that whether the final price is within your bid or not.