"Smart Money" discusses Timeshares [merged]

[Talent312]

Personal finance magazine, "Smart Money" has discovered what is not-news to many here:

"Timeshare Prices Plummet to $1" is the title of this article at...
http://blogs.smartmoney.com/advice/2...-plummet-to-1/

"While real estate – and even vacation real estate – is starting to show signs of recovery, timeshares remain in freefall. During the first quarter, the number of for-sale-by-owner postings doubled compared to the same period a year ago on RedWeek.com, a popular resale site."

"Up to 48% of timeshare owners are behind on their annual maintenance payments by at least a year – up from 37% in 2007, according to TimeshareResortCollections.com, which helps resorts to recoup past due payments."

[ronparise]

The word "investment" was used several times in the blog...and the conclusion is that in todays market you cant recover your investment. This of course assumes that you paid more than a few dollars for it

I for one would like to see an article written from the perspective of todays buyer:The guy like me, that pays a dollar or less for their timeshare. The question is...even at a dollar are timeshares overpriced??

[Rent_Share]

Originally Posted by Talent312

"Up to 48% of timeshare owners are behind on their annual maintenance payments by at least a year – up from 37% in 2007, according to TimeshareResortCollections.com, which helps resorts to recoup past due payments."

Figures Never lie, liars always figure

[jaym]

Not sure that this strikes many here as "news" but some interesting comments...are some of these folks TUG members?

http://blogs.smartmoney.com/advice/2...-plummet-to-1/

[Timeshare Von]

Originally Posted by jaym

Not sure that this strikes many here as "news" but some interesting comments...are some of these folks TUG members?

http://blogs.smartmoney.com/advice/2...-plummet-to-1/

Yes I recognize a name or two as TUG members

[uop1497]

This is an interested article on yahoo website today. I don't know if I am allow to post here . If not, Please delete it for me

I also wonder why the MF fee keep increasing, Does any expert here know the answer .

Here is the full article I copy from the link (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/timesh...met-to--1.html)
=========================================

no need to copy the whole article when the link to it is given

[ronparise]

This has been posted here in another thread or two

My thoughts on increasing mf

1) Things cost more than they once did
2) Expenses stay the same (or go up) and the number of owners paying is going down (defaults and foreclosures are going up) so the share per paying owner goes up

One of the resorts where i own has bad debt equal to 17% of the budget

[BMWguynw]

Brian Rogers, the guy mentioned in this article, is the owner of TUG. So none of this article is news.

Others here can express this better than I, but here are a few things in my opinion that may help to answer some of your questions:

Timeshares generally have little to no resale value. They are overpriced on the initial sale, as timeshare sales weasels try to squeeze every dollar possible from the buyer. They lie through their teeth, and artifically inflate the promised resale value, so when time does come to sell, the buyer ends up frustrated that they aren't getting that growth they were promised. For me, as a consumer, why should I spend thousands on a timeshare that I can buy resale for a dollar or two? Even if I purchased from the Developer at top dollar, by the time my turn came to use the week I bought, someone else would have already slept in that bed. So there is no difference in my mind between new and used. So for me, the real cost of a timeshare is not the purchase price -- it's the ongoing expenses like maintenance fees.

I also think what most timeshare owners have is not "real estate" - it's "vacation time." So expecting to sell a timeshare at a profit is unreasonable. Those who have done so in the last few years are the lucky ones.

For an honest value of a lot of timeshares, check the completed listings on Ebay. It'll show that even the very nice resorts are still selling for pennies on the dollar over Developer sales prices. And yet those Developers continue to sell them at the same sort of inflated pricing. So it's an artificial market.

I've bought and sold all my timeshares on the resale market for a dollar or two. When the time comes to sell what I currently own, I'll do the same thing. And I expect to have no trouble passing them along to their next owner. But I'm not selling "real estate." I'll be selling "vacation time."

Dave

[Ridewithme38]

Originally Posted by ronparise

This has been posted here in another thread or two

My thoughts on increasing mf

1) Things cost more than they once did
2) Expenses stay the same (or go up) and the number of owners paying is going down (defaults and foreclosures are going up) so the share per paying owner goes up

One of the resorts where i own has bad debt equal to 17% of the budget

IF only the 'shares' of days to us went up with the 'shares' of how much you pay in MF's, i don't think it would be as big a problem as it currently is...If i was a billionaire i'd build a resort just like that!

Example: 100 rooms, 50,000,000 points split among all the buyers, if 5,000 people own they all get 10,000 points to use as they please, with .02% of the MF's...10% drop out, they now have 11,111 points to use and pay .022% each of the MF's

[ampaholic]

Originally Posted by Ridewithme38

IF only the 'shares' of days to us went up with the 'shares' of how much you pay in MF's, i don't think it would be as big a problem as it currently is...If i was a billionaire i'd build a resort just like that!

Example: 100 rooms, 50,000,000 points split among all the buyers, if 5,000 people own they all get 10,000 points to use as they please, with .02% of the MF's...10% drop out, they now have 11,111 points to use and pay .022% each of the MF's

What a plebeian outlook! What would e.bram, Carolinian and others who were only allowed to own "prime weeks" do?

[slip]

I'm having a hard time believing 47% of timeshare owners are behind on their
Maintenance fees.

[dioxide45]

Originally Posted by slip

I'm having a hard time believing 47% of timeshare owners are behind on their
Maintenance fees.

I agree, this number seems grossly high. I would expect the default rate to be at or around 20% max. If they were, then that means that everyone else's MFs has to be doubled to cover the shortfall. So when everything comes back to "normal" I can expect a 50% reduction in my MFs?

[MOXJO7282]

This is old news if you ask me. $1 TSs have been around for awhile. Sure the bottom dropped out and prices are still not settledt but everyone on TUG knew that for some time.

[uop1497]

Karen,

Thank you for notify me about my post. I will keep that in mind.

After reading opinions ( from Tuggers) about the maintenance fee keep increasing. I just wonder if the owner have any power ( like voting) as a way to say No or to prevent the MF from going up.

[Carolinian]

Originally Posted by slip

I'm having a hard time believing 47% of timeshare owners are behind on their
Maintenance fees.

And that nugget coming from an entity that I had never heard of which CLAIMS to represent 80% of the industry! Looks like just an attempt at self promotion of their services.

Indeed it would not surprise me if the PCC's planted this story, and I am sure it is being passed out at their presentations these days. I would hope that timesharers would be smart enough not to fall into their trap and give quotes for stories like this.

While I am sure some owners and some resort areas are hurting in the recession, when I researched actual sales numbers in my resort area, this is way overblown. Resale volume has fallen only a little since before the economic downturn and average prices are about the same. The bargain basement of eBay is a tiny niche and not representative of the market because it is being systematically and deliberately depressed by market flooding by the PCC's.

[Carolinian]

That depends a lot on the timeshare. Many developers these days try to retain control over the HOA and management. If you are in one of those resorts, then your vote will always be just window dressing until owners unite and take control of their HOA away from the developer. These days, that is likely going to require a fight.

Many resorts, however, do have member-controlled HOA's, and that is the ONLY type of resort I would consider buying at. At those, if your HOA board is not doing the job you can vote to put in new people. As a member, you do have a real say in things. Some even require the annual budget including the amount of m/f to be voted on by the entire membership, not just the board. I have owned at two timeshares which operated that way.

This is an important aspect to check out in your due diligence before buying.

Originally Posted by uop1497

Karen,

Thank you for notify me about my post. I will keep that in mind.

After reading opinions ( from Tuggers) about the maintenance fee keep increasing. I just wonder if the owner have any power ( like voting) as a way to say No or to prevent the MF from going up.

[Timeshare Von]

Originally Posted by uop1497

Karen,

Thank you for notify me about my post. I will keep that in mind.

After reading opinions ( from Tuggers) about the maintenance fee keep increasing. I just wonder if the owner have any power ( like voting) as a way to say No or to prevent the MF from going up.

And then you get the opportunity to pay a huge special assessment when it's time to update appliances or deal with major renovation projects.

"Pay me now . . . or pay me later".

[ronparise]

Originally Posted by Carolinian

eBay is a tiny niche and not representative of the market because it is being systematically and deliberately depressed by market flooding by the PCC's.

How can you put "tiny niche" and "market flooding" in the same sentence. If the market is being flooded by the PCCs and they are using ebay, than ebay isnt a tiny niche......or if ebay is a tiny niche, than the PCCs arnt flooding the market

[timeos2]

Originally Posted by uop1497

Karen,

Thank you for notify me about my post. I will keep that in mind.

After reading opinions ( from Tuggers) about the maintenance fee keep increasing. I just wonder if the owner have any power ( like voting) as a way to say No or to prevent the MF from going up.

In most cases, unless your resort/system is under the total control of a Developer that hangs on after they should be gone such as Hilton, Marriott, Wyndham and others that see the management as a prepaid revenue stream rather than the owners hard earned money, the resort HOA is made up of owners just like you that do all they can to hold costs down while hopefully maintaining and upgrading the resort to keep it attractive to owners and guests.

You vote for the Board members who then represent you. If you feel they aren't properly managing the funds/resort/fees then you can vote for different Board members. Realize that like your home or apartment costs are going no where but up. Thinking that fees can remain frozen or decrease is beyond fantasy. HOA's have to properly budget and collect for increasing operational costs, planning for upgrades and ongoing maintenance (reserves) and fund taxes (when was the last time those went down in your experience?).

If you see things like a guaranteed 15% profit or free iPads for Board members (both courtesy of Hilton, Marriott & other developers using owners fees) then you should be actively looking to change the makeup of your Board and demand responsible management - even if that means a change away from a Developer controlled group. If you have an owner based Board then support them if they are doing well - replace them if they aren't. You have control but you have to use it. Far too many timeshare owners don't even bother to return their owner proxies but then complain about fees or management. If you don't take an active role then you get to pay whatever those that do hold control bill you. Use the tools you are entitled to and you can help make a difference.

[bdh]

Originally Posted by timeos2

Realize that like your home or apartment costs are going no where but up. Thinking that fees can remain frozen or decrease is beyond fantasy. HOA's have to properly budget and collect for increasing operational costs, planning for upgrades and ongoing maintenance (reserves) and fund taxes (when was the last time those went down in your experience?).

So ever increasing MF's are not solely the result of developer/management company greed???

Rhetorical question - when it comes to MF's, that is just a fact that is seldom typed on the pages of TUG.

[dougp26364]

Originally Posted by bdh

So ever increasing MF's are not solely the result of developer/management company greed???

Rhetorical question - when it comes to MF's, that is just a fact that is seldom typed on the pages of TUG.

No, MF increases are not solely the result of greed. Prices tend to go up on most items, although it can be argued not every item (flat panel TV's for instance have seen decreases in cost).

As an example, I'm looking at replacing our furnace/ac units this fall. It's considerably more expensive than when they were originally purchased. I will be needing a new roof in the next 5 years. Again, considerably more expensive than the original roof. My washer/dryer will probably need replacing in the next few years as does my stove. I was shopping prices the other day and guess what? Yep, more expensive.

Then you have employee's. I don't know about you but most employee's expect an increase in wages each year.

How about insurance? My homeowners insurance was $700 only two years ago. This year it was $1,100.

Are your utilities less expensive than 10 years ago? I bet they're not.

Prices go up, costs go up, expenses are higher, MF's increase.

I'm not saying there isn't profit in it for management companies. If there wasn't, they wouldn't take the job. MF's are not 100% the result of some evil empire bent on milking you for every penny they can get.

[LannyPC]

Originally Posted by dougp26364

No, MF increases are not solely the result of greed. Prices tend to go up on most items, although it can be argued not every item (flat panel TV's for instance have seen decreases in cost).

As an example, I'm looking at replacing our furnace/ac units this fall. It's considerably more expensive than when they were originally purchased. I will be needing a new roof in the next 5 years. Again, considerably more expensive than the original roof. My washer/dryer will probably need replacing in the next few years as does my stove. I was shopping prices the other day and guess what? Yep, more expensive.

Then you have employee's. I don't know about you but most employee's expect an increase in wages each year.

How about insurance? My homeowners insurance was $700 only two years ago. This year it was $1,100.

Are your utilities less expensive than 10 years ago? I bet they're not.

Prices go up, costs go up, expenses are higher, MF's increase.

I'm not saying there isn't profit in it for management companies. If there wasn't, they wouldn't take the job. MF's are not 100% the result of some evil empire bent on milking you for every penny they can get.

True, nearly everything goes up every year. I think the main complaint is that MFs seem to increase at a faster rate than the rate of inflation or the MF payer's wages.

Just using some round, random numbers to make a point, if last year's MFs cost someone 50 hours' wages, that person this year is probably paying somewhere between 51 and 52 hours' wages.

Another inconsistency with regards to the current economy and the MFs is that many workers (not the ones at the resort) have had their employers negotiate wage cuts and freezes in order to (allegedly) keep the company afloat and/or avoid layoffs. So why is it that the workers at these resorts keep getting handsome increases? Why can't their employers (and the employers themselves for that matter) negotiate and say, "Hey. We're having economic problems. Because of the economy and other factors, people are not paying their maintenance fees and our income is less. If we want to stay afloat and keep everyone's jobs, some concessions will have to be made."

Instead, their solution is to raise the maintenance fees.

I know at our company where I work, some concessions had to be negotiated and implemented in order to keep the company afloat. It just would have been nice (probably wishful thinking) for the brass to say, "Let's charge our customers more in order to keep our employees' wages and benefits in line with the regular rate of inflation."

[bdh]

Originally Posted by dougp26364

No, MF increases are not solely the result of greed. Prices tend to go up on most items, although it can be argued not every item (flat panel TV's for instance have seen decreases in cost).

As an example, I'm looking at replacing our furnace/ac units this fall. It's considerably more expensive than when they were originally purchased. I will be needing a new roof in the next 5 years. Again, considerably more expensive than the original roof. My washer/dryer will probably need replacing in the next few years as does my stove. I was shopping prices the other day and guess what? Yep, more expensive.

Then you have employee's. I don't know about you but most employee's expect an increase in wages each year.

How about insurance? My homeowners insurance was $700 only two years ago. This year it was $1,100.

Are your utilities less expensive than 10 years ago? I bet they're not.

Prices go up, costs go up, expenses are higher, MF's increase.

I'm not saying there isn't profit in it for management companies. If there wasn't, they wouldn't take the job. MF's are not 100% the result of some evil empire bent on milking you for every penny they can get.

Absolutely Correct!

The reality is that things (flat panel TV's being the exception) do cost more each year. But its been typed many a time here on TUG that a lot of owners are disgruntled with their TS as they expect their MF to be the same $500 that it was when they bought 15 years ago.

I expect that the double whammy of the basic economy (stagnant or declining wages and increased travel costs) over the past couple of years and the normal (and sometimes unnormal when there is an developer or HOA out of control) increase in MF has prompted a lot of TS owners to bail. Hence the plethora of $1 TS.

No doubt that its a double edge sword: if a resort keeps MF unrealistically low and does not maintain and/or improve the property, the quality of the accommodations decline and owners no longer want to visit/own - if a resort does increase the MF for maintenance and improvements, its possible that the increases will price some owners out of the market.

Everyone wants a wonderfully maintained and updated TS, but not everyone wants or can pay for that. Obviously where the saying "You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time" comes from.

[mpumilia]

Originally Posted by dougp26364

No, MF increases are not solely the result of greed. Prices tend to go up on most items, although it can be argued not every item (flat panel TV's for instance have seen decreases in cost).

As an example, I'm looking at replacing our furnace/ac units this fall. It's considerably more expensive than when they were originally purchased. I will be needing a new roof in the next 5 years. Again, considerably more expensive than the original roof. My washer/dryer will probably need replacing in the next few years as does my stove. I was shopping prices the other day and guess what? Yep, more expensive.

Then you have employee's. I don't know about you but most employee's expect an increase in wages each year.

How about insurance? My homeowners insurance was $700 only two years ago. This year it was $1,100.

Are your utilities less expensive than 10 years ago? I bet they're not.

Prices go up, costs go up, expenses are higher, MF's increase.

I'm not saying there isn't profit in it for management companies. If there wasn't, they wouldn't take the job. MF's are not 100% the result of some evil empire bent on milking you for every penny they can get.

FYI - You have to shop all insurances every 5 years. For ex: my homeowners went up to $800.00 last year (from $475), so I said goodbye and went to another company for a bit more coverage and a $500 premium. Same goes for car insurance, etc. Just by the insurance actuarial "laws" your insurances will go up and then you have to switch to get a decrease.

[timeos2]

Originally Posted by dougp26364

I'm not saying there isn't profit in it for management companies. If there wasn't, they wouldn't take the job. MF's are not 100% the result of some evil empire bent on milking you for every penny they can get.

The problem is the tendency for the developer controlled resorts to have poorly written contract that allow for a 15% markup on virtually everything they do, Whee is the incentive to hold down costs if increases will automatically make you more money? And you hold all the control and can bill your owners whatever you feel they will (maybe grudgingly) accept? There is no control in those situations and owners take a beating from it.

No one thinks any management should work for free (they can't & survive) but they shouldn't be guaranteed XX% (wish my savings earned 1/2 that) for every dollar they raise. Something is serously out of whack with that.