Club Wyndham Access, annual meeting

ronparise · May 3, 2012

I went to the annual meeting of the PTVO Owners Association...they manage Club Wyndham Access

There were 3 board members and about 10 Wyndham employees there, and maybe 50 owners. The agenda was short and sweet, 1) call to order 2) approval of the minutes of the last meeting 3) Plan update 4) treasure's report 5) new business and 6) adjourn

We were told the number of resorts and the numbers of members was growing. Nothing new here, this info and the treasures report have been posted on line for a while

It was in the Q and A where the new and interesting information (at least it was new and interesting to me) came out

Most of the questions went to the sales dept, ie What are you doing about sales?; I like the resorts, but Ill never buy another point or refer another friend to Wyndham; they lie; One guy said he was demanding Wyndham cancel a recent sale because of the lies....

The Wyndham people there pretended not to know what Wyndham sales people were doing. and no one believed them....

The finance guy said that bad debt in CWA was under 2%..I made the point that in fact bad debt was hidden in his numbers. Perhaps CWA members were paying but there are a lot of resorts where CWA owns weeks, and the bad debt at those resorts is high and the high mf to cover it is passed through to us...I suggested a program whereby CWA and Wyndham management , reach out to the various resorts where we own to assist them in getting their bad debt under control...Turns out such a program is being implemented. Wyndham may either offer to pay the resorts legal costs to effect a foreclosure, or take deeds back in lieu of foreclosure.. I always knew Wyndham was dumping foreclosures into CWA, but I didnt know Wyndhan was helping the resorts to actually get the foreclosure done

On the subject of foreclosure. Someone asked what the club was doing to collect bad debt from CWA members who were not paying.....This I found very interesting....Since with CWA you are a member of a club, and you dont hold deeds (the club holds the deed) Foreclosure is the wrong word to use. All the club has to do is cancel your membership...and they will do that after three months. And sales will have something new to sell. And by the way Wyndham pays the club mf for the unsold points...so in the long run, the club doesnt fall behind financially due to a cancellation....A follow up question was...do we try to collect the bad debt...and the answer was no

So the answer to the question that has been asked here on TUG so many times: What happens if I stop paying mf?; is, with regard to CWA, Nothing! At least thats what I took from this meeting

My question, and the one I drove three and a half hours to ask, was...Specifically, how much inventory is in Club Wyndham Access from a specific resort? and how is that inventory metered out to the reservations staff? My question was not answered....but I was told that the answer is available, and I was given an email address to write for the answer...well see

I came away from this meeting convinced that just as Wyndham shifted their focus away from fixed weeks to points some years ago, we can look forward to a shift in focus to CWA as time goes on....

jjmanthei05 · May 3, 2012

From what you posted seems to be a logical transition. When Wyndham went from fixed weeks to points they could sell everything as prime or whatever the person was looking for. There were no "bad" weeks anymore. Now with CWA they can sell ARP for every special event that is out there. "You want Daytona 500, bike week, Mardi gras, Cherry blossom in DC, or summers in myrtle beach. We have ARP to them all." It also makes it easier for them to get rid of non paying people much easier. The interesting question you could have asked was not so much what the bad debt was in CWA but what percentage of contracts have they had to take back because of bad debt. There are only 2% right now that are 1-3 months behind but how many points have they had to try and resell because of bad debt. Thanks for the info it was awesome. One question I have is since there is no deed, does title services move much faster on these to transfer? Where it would only take a week or 2 instead of 8-10?

Jason

vacationhopeful · May 3, 2012

ronparise said:
I went to the annual meeting of the PTVO Owners Association...they manage Club Wyndham Access

....It was in the Q and A where the new and interesting information (at least it was new and interesting to me) came out
....
So the answer to the question that has been asked here on TUG so many times: What happens if I stop paying mf?; is, with regard to CWA, Nothing! At least thats what I took from this meeting

....

Wyndham is self-financing much of this debt. I will bet money that they HAVE or will sell these notes to a COLLECTION AGENCY. So, an unpaid $25,000 would be transferred/sold for chump-change based on the financial data of the borrower. It will NOT go away.

rrlongwell · May 3, 2012

jjmanthei05 said:
... One question I have is since there is no deed, does title services move much faster on these to transfer? Where it would only take a week or 2 instead of 8-10?

In my case, the points were in my account within a day or two. I am still waiting the certificate. April 21, 2012 was the purchase date.

am1 · May 3, 2012

rrlongwell said:
In my case, the points were in my account within a day or two. I am still waiting the certificate. April 21, 2012 was the purchase date.

Resale and retail buyers have different time frames. That has already been established.

rrlongwell · May 3, 2012

ronparise said:
I went to the annual meeting of the PTVO Owners Association...they manage Club Wyndham Access ... The finance guy said that bad debt in CWA was under 2%..I made the point that in fact bad debt was hidden in his numbers. Perhaps CWA members were paying but there are a lot of resorts where CWA owns weeks, and the bad debt at those resorts is high and the high mf to cover it is passed through to us...I suggested a program whereby CWA and Wyndham management , reach out to the various resorts where we own to assist them in getting their bad debt under control...Turns out such a program is being implemented. Wyndham may either offer to pay the resorts legal costs to effect a foreclosure, or take deeds back in lieu of foreclosure.. I always knew Wyndham was dumping foreclosures into CWA, but I didnt know Wyndhan was helping the resorts to actually get the foreclosure done

On the subject of foreclosure. Someone asked what the club was doing to collect bad debt from CWA members who were not paying.....This I found very interesting....Since with CWA you are a member of a club, and you dont hold deeds (the club holds the deed) Foreclosure is the wrong word to use. All the club has to do is cancel your membership...and they will do that after three months. And sales will have something new to sell. And by the way Wyndham pays the club mf for the unsold points...so in the long run, the club doesnt fall behind financially due to a cancellation....A follow up question was...do we try to collect the bad debt...and the answer was no

So the answer to the question that has been asked here on TUG so many times: What happens if I stop paying mf?; is, with regard to CWA, Nothing! At least thats what I took from this meeting ...

At Westwinds, the Wyndham Management Company was working hard to take deeds back that were in default awhile ago. So this could very well be true regarding defaults with the Property Owners Associations.

Regarding Wyndham taking Club Wyndham Access deeds back at the 90 day point, if the for profit Wyndham is paying for the points associated with these contracts, then I am assuming they are the ones doing the take back. I agree, this would be a very great thing from a members perspective and it would open the door for many many people that want to take a shot at renting Wyndham Club Access in the rental market, this provides a way out if their home business fails. The purchase to let Extra Holidays rent to you pitch makes a lot more sense if this is true (and yes, you do not need to by from the developer, the same thing presumably can be done with a re-sale purchase).

"Since with CWA you are a member of a club, and you dont hold deeds (the club holds the deed)" A interesting thing with a Club Wyndham Access deed bought from Wyndham, a title insurance policy comes with it. I was not aware that a Title Company would insure a membership based club.

"What happens if I stop paying mf?; is, with regard to CWA, Nothing! At least thats what I took from this meeting" and "Wyndham may either offer to pay the resorts legal costs to effect a foreclosure, or take deeds back in lieu of foreclosure"

Maybe the sales staff that sell Wyndham Timeshares are not completly wrong for the ones that pitch Wyndham will take them back (the Kernel of Truth). This would be a great thing for the Scammers that have large upfront fees, they take the fees from the seller and just give them back to Wyndham. Maybe that is why I do not see as many good resorts/timeframes on E-Bay as I used to .

ronparise · May 3, 2012

jjmanthei05 said:
From what you posted seems to be a logical transition. When Wyndham went from fixed weeks to points they could sell everything as prime or whatever the person was looking for. There were no "bad" weeks anymore. Now with CWA they can sell ARP for every special event that is out there. "You want Daytona 500, bike week, Mardi gras, Cherry blossom in DC, or summers in myrtle beach. We have ARP to them all." It also makes it easier for them to get rid of non paying people much easier. The interesting question you could have asked was not so much what the bad debt was in CWA but what percentage of contracts have they had to take back because of bad debt. There are only 2% right now that are 1-3 months behind but how many points have they had to try and resell because of bad debt. Thanks for the info it was awesome. One question I have is since there is no deed, does title services move much faster on these to transfer? Where it would only take a week or 2 instead of 8-10?

Jason

rrlonwells comments aside..CWA resale contracts, if my experience is typical, take longer than deeded ownerships.....there are two steps to the transfer 1) it has to pass ROFR 2) they have to print up the certificate and put your name in their records (for billing) That ROFR step seems to take longer for Wyndham to accomplish than the various counties take to record a deed...and the second step is no different than for a deeded ownership...last time I asked 4-6 weeks

This is not a direct answer to your question about how many contracts do they have to cancel but it may shed some light on the subject

There are 9,600,147,601 points deeded to CWA and 8,612,225,000 points that are sold, leaving 987,922,610 points to be sold

interestingly these nearly a billion developer owned points are not a drag on the club, Wyndham is paying the fees.....so assuming Wyndham wants to keep their ownership under a billion and assuming sales can keep up with the cancelled contracts....it really doesnt matter (to Wyndham or the Club) how many are taken back

I think this really explains management turning a blind eye toward tha sales operation. They need new blood all the time and if sales has to stretch the truth a bit to make a sale...well so be it

ronparise · May 3, 2012

vacationhopeful said:
Wyndham is self-financing much of this debt. I will bet money that they HAVE or will sell these notes to a COLLECTION AGENCY. So, an unpaid $25,000 would be transferred/sold for chump-change based on the financial data of the borrower. It will NOT go away.

I was only speaking to mf. If you default on a note all bets are off. The note holder, Wyndham or an investor is likely to still be relentless in their collection effort...

but Wyndham will have the points back to resell and perhaps make the note holder whole.

jjmanthei05 · May 3, 2012

ronparise said:
rrlonwells comments aside..CWA resale contracts, if my experience is typical, take longer than deeded ownerships.....there are two steps to the transfer 1) it has to pass ROFR 2) they have to print up the certificate and put your name in their records (for billing) That ROFR step seems to take longer for Wyndham to accomplish than the various counties take to record a deed...and the second step is no different than for a deeded ownership...last time I asked 4-6 weeks

This is not a direct answer to your question about how many contracts do they have to cancel but it may shed some light on the subject

There are 9,600,147,601 points deeded to CWA and 8,612,225,000 points that are sold, leaving 987,922,610 points to be sold

interestingly these nearly a billion developer owned points are not a drag on the club, Wyndham is paying the fees.....so assuming Wyndham wants to keep their ownership under a billion and assuming sales can keep up with the cancelled contracts....it really doesnt matter (to Wyndham or the Club) how many are taken back

I think this really explains management turning a blind eye toward tha sales operation. They need new blood all the time and if sales has to stretch the truth a bit to make a sale...well so be it

If your point totals are correct I would say that they are tight on inventory... On the confenece call by Stephen holmes, he said they had sales of 409 million in the 4th quarter alone. If you take the $220/K price you still on have about 6 weeks of inventory available. If you put it at an even more reasonable price of $150/k your down to about a month of inventory.

One interesting side note from what I read, They just acquired a WAAM property for worldmark in AZ.

Jason

If you really want to see what drives sales and how wyndham sees selling read the conference call and Q&A. Wyndham Q1 2012 Conference Call Transcript

timeos2 · May 3, 2012

Right now, and for many years to come, the nondeeded CWA will be small potato's compared to the vast majority of ownerships being in the standard Wyndham Points system and a few week in the really old fixed week inventory.

The idea that you buy into what is basically a vacation club rather than any type of deeded or UDI share of a resort has mixed risks / benefits. Indeed it may be far easier to get out (assuming you paid the purchase price in full and have no outstanding loan or balance on that) as simply missing annual fee payments can and will get you booted (and your ownership lost) without messy and costly foreclosure required. Others like DRI seem to realize how beneficial that is to them. On the downside you have virtually no protection of your often hefty purchase price as the system can and does call the shots - you are virtually powerless even if they take outrageous moves against you.

Plus they can and have put strict rules and restrictions on any possible resale making that problematic as well. Overall - too risky for my taste. I'll just rent now, thank you.

ronparise · May 3, 2012

rrlonwell, you can take this as an attack post if you want, but this is probably the first time I have read one of your posts that actually makes sense to me

I too was surprised that I got a title insurance policy with my purchase of CWA. I just assumed it wasnt worth the paper it was printed on. or was provided to give me some piece of mind that there are real deeds behind this ownership.

Taking this a step further: In a discussion I had with a Wyndham employee after the meeting I learned that there are some resorts where many of the fixed weeks have title problems. These problems have to be fixed before before a transfer to the club can happen...and that can be impossible sometimes and at best expensive....The title policy may be an assurance that all the deeds that Wyndham holds in CWA are "clean" but what it says on the cover letter that came with the policy is this statement "the purpose of this policy is to insure that the cwa points are owned free and clear of any debt owed by the seller and to insure that the points you purchased are legally in existence and available for sale at closing"

regarding the exit strategy benefit to a renter buying CWA rather than a deeded ownership. I dont see it (im sure its there but it makes no difference to me) Im really not thinking of how Im getting out if my rental business fails...im not thinking of failure at all...

rrlongwell said:
ronparise said:

I went to the annual meeting of the PTVO Owners Association...they manage Club Wyndham Access ... The finance guy said that bad debt in CWA was under 2%..I made the point that in fact bad debt was hidden in his numbers. Perhaps CWA members were paying but there are a lot of resorts where CWA owns weeks, and the bad debt at those resorts is high and the high mf to cover it is passed through to us...I suggested a program whereby CWA and Wyndham management , reach out to the various resorts where we own to assist them in getting their bad debt under control...Turns out such a program is being implemented. Wyndham may either offer to pay the resorts legal costs to effect a foreclosure, or take deeds back in lieu of foreclosure.. I always knew Wyndham was dumping foreclosures into CWA, but I didnt know Wyndhan was helping the resorts to actually get the foreclosure done

On the subject of foreclosure. Someone asked what the club was doing to collect bad debt from CWA members who were not paying.....This I found very interesting....Since with CWA you are a member of a club, and you dont hold deeds (the club holds the deed) Foreclosure is the wrong word to use. All the club has to do is cancel your membership...and they will do that after three months. And sales will have something new to sell. And by the way Wyndham pays the club mf for the unsold points...so in the long run, the club doesnt fall behind financially due to a cancellation....A follow up question was...do we try to collect the bad debt...and the answer was no

So the answer to the question that has been asked here on TUG so many times: What happens if I stop paying mf?; is, with regard to CWA, Nothing! At least thats what I took from this meeting ...

At Westwinds, the Wyndham Management Company was working hard to take deeds back that were in default awhile ago. So this could very well be true regarding defaults with the Property Owners Associations.

Regarding Wyndham taking Club Wyndham Access deeds back at the 90 day point, if the for profit Wyndham is paying for the points associated with these contracts, then I am assuming they are the ones doing the take back. I agree, this would be a very great thing from a members perspective and it would open the door for many many people that want to take a shot at renting Wyndham Club Access in the rental market, this provides a way out if their home business fails. The purchase to let Extra Holidays rent to you pitch makes a lot more sense if this is true (and yes, you do not need to by from the developer, the same thing presumably can be done with a re-sale purchase).

"Since with CWA you are a member of a club, and you dont hold deeds (the club holds the deed)" A interesting thing with a Club Wyndham Access deed bought from Wyndham, a title insurance policy comes with it. I was not aware that a Title Company would insure a membership based club.

"What happens if I stop paying mf?; is, with regard to CWA, Nothing! At least thats what I took from this meeting" and "Wyndham may either offer to pay the resorts legal costs to effect a foreclosure, or take deeds back in lieu of foreclosure"

Maybe the sales staff that sell Wyndham Timeshares are not completly wrong for the ones that pitch Wyndham will take them back (the Kernel of Truth). This would be a great thing for the Scammers that have large upfront fees, they take the fees from the seller and just give them back to Wyndham. Maybe that is why I do not see as many good resorts/timeframes on E-Bay as I used to .

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

rrlongwell · May 3, 2012

ronparise said:
rrlonwell, you can take this as an attack post if you want, but this is probably the first time I have read one of your posts that actually makes sense to me

I too was surprised that I got a title insurance policy with my purchase of CWA. I just assumed it wasnt worth the paper it was printed on. or was provided to give me some piece of mind that there are real deeds behind this ownership.

Taking this a step further: In a discussion I had with a Wyndham employee after the meeting I learned that there are some resorts where many of the fixed weeks have title problems. These problems have to be fixed before before a transfer to the club can happen...and that can be impossible sometimes and at best expensive....The title policy may be an assurance that all the deeds that Wyndham holds in CWA are "clean" but what it says on the cover letter that came with the policy is this statement "the purpose of this policy is to insure that the cwa points are owned free and clear of any debt owed by the seller and to insure that the points you purchased are legally in existence and available for sale at closing"

regarding the exit strategy benefit to a renter buying CWA rather than a deeded ownership. I dont see it (im sure its there but it makes no difference to me) Im really not thinking of how Im getting out if my rental business fails...im not thinking of failure at all...

rrlongwell said:

ronparise said:

I went to the annual meeting of the PTVO Owners Association...they manage Club Wyndham Access ... The finance guy said that bad debt in CWA was under 2%..I made the point that in fact bad debt was hidden in his numbers. Perhaps CWA members were paying but there are a lot of resorts where CWA owns weeks, and the bad debt at those resorts is high and the high mf to cover it is passed through to us...I suggested a program whereby CWA and Wyndham management , reach out to the various resorts where we own to assist them in getting their bad debt under control...Turns out such a program is being implemented. Wyndham may either offer to pay the resorts legal costs to effect a foreclosure, or take deeds back in lieu of foreclosure.. I always knew Wyndham was dumping foreclosures into CWA, but I didnt know Wyndhan was helping the resorts to actually get the foreclosure done

On the subject of foreclosure. Someone asked what the club was doing to collect bad debt from CWA members who were not paying.....This I found very interesting....Since with CWA you are a member of a club, and you dont hold deeds (the club holds the deed) Foreclosure is the wrong word to use. All the club has to do is cancel your membership...and they will do that after three months. And sales will have something new to sell. And by the way Wyndham pays the club mf for the unsold points...so in the long run, the club doesnt fall behind financially due to a cancellation....A follow up question was...do we try to collect the bad debt...and the answer was no

So the answer to the question that has been asked here on TUG so many times: What happens if I stop paying mf?; is, with regard to CWA, Nothing! At least thats what I took from this meeting ...

Click to expand...

No, this is not an attack post. Thanks for the info and update on the Owners Meeting.

Click to expand...

ronparise · May 3, 2012

timeos2 said:
Right now, and for many years to come, the nondeeded CWA will be small potato's compared to the vast majority of ownerships being in the standard Wyndham Points system and a few week in the really old fixed week inventory.

The idea that you buy into what is basically a vacation club rather than any type of deeded or UDI share of a resort has mixed risks / benefits. Indeed it may be far easier to get out (assuming you paid the purchase price in full and have no outstanding loan or balance on that) as simply missing annual fee payments can and will get you booted (and your ownership lost) without messy and costly foreclosure required. Others like DRI seem to realize how beneficial that is to them. On the downside you have virtually no protection of your often hefty purchase price as the system can and does call the shots - you are virtually powerless even if they take outrageous moves against you.

Plus they can and have put strict rules and restrictions on any possible resale making that problematic as well. Overall - too risky for my taste. I'll just rent now, thank you.

The comparison isnt between buying or renting....its between buying one thing or another

Of course the club can and will call the shots, but I dont think the management is any different in their goals, or the shots they will call than the management in any developer controlled timeshare or in the shots that the hoa of an hoa controlled resort will call.....Either way the single individual owner (me) has no control

My post was provided for the benefit of other Wyndham owners, specifically other Club Wyndham Access owners...dont shoot the messenger, and please dont use my post to push your anti-ownership/anti Wyndham agenda

rrlongwell · May 3, 2012

jjmanthei05 said:
... One interesting side note from what I read, They just acquired a WAAM property for worldmark in AZ ...

According to Wyndham Reservations, In January, availability in the following Worldmark resorts will becoming available.:

Worldmark Camlin in Seattle
Worldmark Longbeach Washington State
Worldmark Red River San Diego
Worldmark Mission Valley San Diego
Worldmark Santa Fe New Mexico
Worldmark St. George Utah
Worldmark Victoria Canada

They indicated that these are not WAAM properties and they are not expecting any WAAM properties in the near future. She indicated that the availability that is being picked up is limited at the resorts. My guess, this is inventory becoming available to Wyndham Vacation Resorts as a result of the Worldmark settlement.

P.S. I absolutly agree with Ron's post, Please do not shoot the messenger.

ronparise · May 3, 2012

jjmanthei05 said:
If your point totals are correct I would say that they are tight on inventory... On the confenece call by Stephen holmes, he said they had sales of 409 million in the 4th quarter alone. If you take the $220/K price you still on have about 6 weeks of inventory available. If you put it at an even more reasonable price of $150/k your down to about a month of inventory.

One interesting side note from what I read, They just acquired a WAAM property for worldmark in AZ.

Jason

If you really want to see what drives sales and how wyndham sees selling read the conference call and Q&A. Wyndham Q4 2011 Conference Call Transcript

I read that conference call too

The folks on the Worldmark forum think that Az property is going to end up in their system

and yes I thought that the points available for sale was tight too. But understand that this is a snapshot in time ....Total mf collected in 2011 is about 50% more than what total mf collected in 2010 were So they must be adding inventory all the time

I wouldnt worry about Wyndham not having anything to sell

jjmanthei05 · May 3, 2012

rrlongwell said:
According to Wyndham Reservations, In January, availability in the following Worldmark resorts will becoming available.:

Worldmark Camlin in Seattle
Worldmark Longbeach Washington State
Worldmark Red River San Diego
Worldmark Mission Valley San Diego
Worldmark Santa Fe New Mexico
Worldmark St. George Utah
Worldmark Victoria Canada

They indicated that these are not WAAM properties and they are not expecting any WAAM properties in the near future. She indicated that the availability that is being picked up is limited at the resorts. My guess, this is inventory becoming available to Wyndham Vacation Resorts as a result of the Worldmark settlement.

I have no idea if this will be available to Wyndham owners. It was just said in there that they closed one for worldmark and would start selling it in the 4th quarter of this year.

Jason

ronparise · May 3, 2012

rrlongwell said:
According to Wyndham Reservations, In January, availability in the following Worldmark resorts will becoming available.:

Worldmark Camlin in Seattle
Worldmark Longbeach Washington State
Worldmark Red River San Diego
Worldmark Mission Valley San Diego
Worldmark Santa Fe New Mexico
Worldmark St. George Utah
Worldmark Victoria Canada

They indicated that these are not WAAM properties and they are not expecting any WAAM properties in the near future. She indicated that the availability that is being picked up is limited at the resorts. My guess, this is inventory becoming available to Wyndham Vacation Resorts as a result of the Worldmark settlement.

And National Harbor was just made available to Worldmark

Usually this cross system availability is limited to just two units. It lets Wyndham add a few pages and some real pretty pictures, to their books, and it gives sales something else to talk about, but it doesnt really give us anything we can use

I dont think the settlement has anything to do with what you are reporting

Although the settlement did require Wyndham to pull some inventory out of Worldmark....and that inventory may become available to Wyndham points owners..the list you have provided does not correspond to the list of resorts that the settlement agreement lists

here is the list of resorts and the number of units to be removed from Worldmark....

Angels Camp 44
Bisontown 18
Canmore 31
Denarau Island 22
Galena 31
Grand Lake 32
Indio 113
Lake of the Ozarks 24
Las Vegas Tropicana 56
Pinetop 23
Rancho Vistoso 23
Steamboat Springs 27
Taos 37

rrlongwell · May 3, 2012

ronparise said:
And National Harbor was just made available to Worldmark

Usually this cross system availability is limited to just two units. It lets Wyndham add a few pages and some real pretty pictures, to their books, and it gives sales something else to talk about, but it doesnt really give us anything we can use

I dont think the settlement has anything to do with what you are reporting

Although the settlement did require Wyndham to pull some inventory out of Worldmark....and that inventory may become available to Wyndham points owners..the list you have provided does not correspond to the list of resorts that the settlement agreement lists

here is the list of resorts and the number of units to be removed from Worldmark....

Angels Camp 44
Bisontown 18
Canmore 31
Denarau Island 22
Galena 31
Grand Lake 32
Indio 113
Lake of the Ozarks 24
Las Vegas Tropicana 56
Pinetop 23
Rancho Vistoso 23
Steamboat Springs 27
Taos 37

Thanks for the info. I hope we get these.

am1 · May 3, 2012

ronparise said:
My post was provided for the benefit of other Wyndham owners, specifically other Club Wyndham Access owners...dont shoot the messenger, and please dont use my post to push your anti-ownership/anti Wyndham agenda

Ron, I think that is his job. He never misses an opportunity to talk bad about something he does not understand.

ronparise · May 3, 2012

am1 said:
Ron, I think that is his job. He never misses an opportunity to talk bad about something he does not understand.

Oh I think he understands it, probably better than we do...I just would prefer he doesnt hijack my thread

learnalot · May 3, 2012

rrlongwell said:
Thanks for the info. I hope we get these.

Those resorts ARE in our inventory but the allocation at most of those places represent what amounts to less than an interval of one unit per week. Las Vegas Tropicana has just above that and some have represent significantly less than 1 unit per week. Besides which, even if the number of units to be "removed" from Worldmark inventory from a particular resort was 52, that would not automatically equate to one available unit every week of the year - it could be 52 units available during low season weeks.

markb53 · May 3, 2012

Thanks Ron,
I appreciate you "representing" us at the meeting. You got a lot of good information.
I do have a question that you or someone could answer. I don't fully understand the WorldMark settlement and why they are releasing some of their inventory and how that satisfies the lawsuit.

ronparise · May 3, 2012

markb53 said:
Thanks Ron,
I appreciate you "representing" us at the meeting. You got a lot of good information.
I do have a question that you or someone could answer. I don't fully understand the WorldMark settlement and why they are releasing some of their inventory and how that satisfies the lawsuit.

You should visit wmowners.com they have lots of good information on their forum, incl the full settlement agreement

The background as I understand it has to do with the way Worldmark is organized and how Wyndham maintains their employees on the board and how Wyndham can make a ton of money at the expense of the existing owners

With Worldmark the developer. now Wyndham, adds inventory to the club free of debt and in exchange can sell credits. The developer could buy a broken down motel, in a location where nobody wants to vist..give it to the club and from sales offices at the popular resorts sell credits...new owners wont want to visit the new resort any more than the old owners so there is increased competition to get reservations for the better weeks at the better resorts..Also Worldmark owners have gotten used to a fairly consistant credit cost for weeks at their resorts...in fact you can read the club rules to say new properties in the club have to have credit requirements the same as existing properties...Wyndham has been bringing in new properties with credit requirements much higher.

Doing these things allows Wyndham to sell more credits at a higher cost than perhaps the should and the large number of unsold credits allows Wyndham more votes so they can vote their own people to the board

These issues upset owners so much that several owners sued Wyndham

The settlement required two things...Wyndham rolled back credit requirements at some of the resorts, and they removed a number of under utilized units from club inventory

rrlongwell · May 3, 2012

ronparise said:
You should visit wmowners.com they have lots of good information on their forum, incl the full settlement agreement

The background as I understand it has to do with the way Worldmark is organized and how Wyndham maintains their employees on the board and how Wyndham can make a ton of money at the expense of the existing owners

With Worldmark the developer. now Wyndham, adds inventory to the club free of debt and in exchange can sell credits. The developer could buy a broken down motel, in a location where nobody wants to vist..give it to the club and from sales offices at the popular resorts sell credits...new owners wont want to visit the new resort any more than the old owners so there is increased competition to get reservations for the better weeks at the better resorts..Also Worldmark owners have gotten used to a fairly consistant credit cost for weeks at their resorts...in fact you can read the club rules to say new properties in the club have to have credit requirements the same as existing properties...Wyndham has been bringing in new properties with credit requirements much higher.

Doing these things allows Wyndham to sell more credits at a higher cost than perhaps the should and the large number of unsold credits allows Wyndham more votes so they can vote their own people to the board

These issues upset owners so much that several owners sued Wyndham

The settlement required two things...Wyndham rolled back credit requirements at some of the resorts, and they removed a number of under utilized units from club inventory

http://www.girardgibbs.com/docs/cases/86_WyndhamSummaryNotice.pdf Please note: under the terms of the Summary of the Settlement, the designated units can be substituted for others under some conditions (see page 3).

pacodemountainside · May 3, 2012

ronparise said:
I went to the annual meeting of the PTVO Owners Association...they manage Club Wyndham Access

"Most of the questions went to the sales dept, ie What are you doing about sales?; I like the resorts, but Ill never buy another point or refer another friend to Wyndham; they lie; One guy said he was demanding Wyndham cancel a recent sale because of the lies....

The Wyndham people there pretended not to know what Wyndham sales people were doing. and no one believed them...."

It is amazing how they duck the facts. Maybe invite one of them to go to BC with you and do an owner update!

"On the subject of foreclosure. Someone asked what the club was doing to collect bad debt from CWA members who were not paying.....This I found very interesting....Since with CWA you are a member of a club, and you dont hold deeds (the club holds the deed) Foreclosure is the wrong word to use. All the club has to do is cancel your membership...and they will do that after three months. And sales will have something new to sell. And by the way Wyndham pays the club mf for the unsold points...so in the long run, the club doesnt fall behind financially due to a cancellation....A follow up question was...do we try to collect the bad debt...and the answer was no."

This makes sense. After 3 months can rent via EH, sell, etc. minimal loss. Would probably cost more to collect HOA fee from prior owner than legal expenses.

To me it would make sense for HOAs to do same and get back to paying some money. Just accept "Quit Claim Deed" rather than foreclosing after a year or so. . If people can't pay HOA fee they are probably having trouble making car payment and buying gas to get to work if they have a job!

"So the answer to the question that has been asked here on TUG so many times: What happens if I stop paying mf?; is, with regard to CWA, Nothing! At least thats what I took from this meeting"

WOW! If one were defaulting and paid monthly and used all points for calendar year in January would be a nasty hit!

"My question, and the one I drove three and a half hours to ask, was...Specifically, how much inventory is in Club Wyndham Access from a specific resort? and how is that inventory metered out to the reservations staff? My question was not answered....but I was told that the answer is available, and I was given an email address to write for the answer...well see"

Will be interested in response. Sounds more like a structured dog and pony show where answers are very hard to come by!

Club Wyndham Access, annual meeting

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