Komo 4 news time share scam [Washington State Scammers - merged]

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...camming-30000-timeshare-owners-210440531.html

Right in my own backyard. I thought this only happened in Fla.
Any one have a guess as to the sentence they will receive?
Feds don't think they will recover much if any of the money.

The Federal Trade Commission is announcing more than 80 civil lawsuits in 27 states.

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No mention of any action to undo the transfers ?

And for those who don't have an issue with Viking Ships

The attorney general's office says Jonathan and Christine Gibbs fooled elderly consumers into paying them thousands of dollars to transfer ownership of their vacation timeshares to shell corporations.

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This is now on KIRO 7 news. No criminal charges have been filed. $70m from elderly TS owners.

[merged] Attorney General Goes After Two Timeshare Resellers/PCC Criminals

It looks like the state of washington is cracking down on some scammers. They announced they are going after a PCC and their owners for what looks like criminal charges. The culprits are Christine Gibbs and Jonathan Gibbs from Lacy WA apparently. Here is the link to the news release:

http://www.atg.wa.gov/pressrelease.aspx?id=31215#.UbEwERasDTQ

Wash. State couple scammed 30,000 timeshare owners

>> SEATTLE -- An Olympia couple is being sued by the state of Washington, which says the pair scammed 30,000 timeshare owners who were anxious to sell, Attorney General Bob Ferguson announced on Thursday.

Washington's civil lawsuit against Jonathan and Christine Gibbs is part of a national crackdown coordinated by the Federal Trade Commission.

The attorney general's office said the Gibbs fooled elderly consumers into paying them thousands of dollars to transfer ownership of their vacation timeshares to shell corporations.

There are two keys to recognizing a scam like this, the attorney general said.

One is to recognize that timeshares are not worth more than, or even as much as, consumers originally paid for them years ago. So if someone offers to buy a timeshare for a lot of money, it's probably a scam.

The second key is if someone is asked to pay a fee before being given money for a timeshare, or a lottery prize or something similar, it is most likely a scam, especially if this offer comes from a stranger.

"If an offer seems too good to be true, make some phone calls," to check it out, Ferguson said.

Ferguson described the Gibbs scam as a large, complicated scheme that harmed about 30,000 consumers nationwide, including 1,500 people in Washington state. The couple collected more than $70 million while operating as 25 different companies, he said.

It took Washington investigators 18 months to investigate and shut down the operation. They were able to get the information they needed to file the lawsuit thanks in part to citizens who called the attorney general's office to complain.

"That's how many of our cases get started," Ferguson said. "Folks call our office, or got to our website."

The Federal Trade Commission is announcing more than 80 civil lawsuits in 27 states."<<

http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20...couple-sued-for-scamming-30K-timeshare-owners

jsfletch said:

This is now on KIRO 7 news. No criminal charges have been filed. $70m from elderly TS owners.

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$70 Million?? That's a lot of money. Over how many years did they run this thing?

Their names are not unknown around TUG. Christine Gibbs was the notary listed on my first t/s purchase, eight years ago. FWIW.

Dave

Olympia (WA) couple sued for scamming 30,000 timeshare owners - Viking ship??

Article says there is a coordinated federal campaign underway. Also they took in $70 million!!! No wonder so many perps are running the scam.

Article says tranfers to shell corporations. Sounds like a a viking ship operation.

Olympia couple sued for scamming 30,000 timeshare owners

SEATTLE —

An Olympia couple is being sued by the state of Washington for scamming 30,000 timeshare owners.

The civil lawsuit announced by Attorney General Bob Ferguson on Thursday is part of a national crackdown coordinated by the Federal Trade Commission.

The attorney general's office says Jonathan and Christine Gibbs fooled elderly consumers into paying them thousands of dollars to transfer ownership of their vacation timeshares to shell corporations.

Ferguson describes the scam as a large, complicated scheme that harmed about 30,000 consumers nationwide, including 1,500 people in Washington state. He says the couple collected more than $70 million while operating as 25 different companies.

It took Washington investigators 18 months to investigate and shut down the scam.

The Federal Trade Commission is announcing more than 80 civil lawsuits in 27 states.

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No real surprise here...

Jonathan Gibbs and his wife Christine, the principals in this news item, have been around for some years.
The state of Washington previously looked hard at them a few years ago, essentially alleging that they improperly engaged in real estate activities without required licensing, but that matter apparently did not proceed much further. Timesharing Today covered that situation as a feature article a few years ago.

It will certainly be very interesting to see if this newer civil lawsuit turns out to actually have "legs".

couldnt happen to nicer folk....anxiously awaiting the outcome of this!

The victims

theo said:

Jonathan Gibbs and his wife Christine, the principals in this news item, have been around for some years.

It will certainly be very interesting to see if this newer civil lawsuit turns out to actually have "legs".

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Most of their websites have been taken down but from the cache of their web pages they were really presenting themselves as "Philanthropists" with this stolen money.

The AG is going after recovery for "cost of the investigation" as we'll as reparations for victims.

I have 2 questions:

1) I have seen in many fraud cases that the FTC will ask charities to give back the money provided to them. If so, that could be a big amount and really hurt a charity like World Vision who they donated $150,000 just in this one news release: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/12/prweb9030706.htm . Do you think they will leave the charitable gifts alone and just seize personal and business assets?

2) Who are the "victims"? I would think it would be their clients AND the resorts. The resorts have lost millions here..

julienne said:

The attorney general's office said the Gibbs fooled elderly consumers into paying them thousands of dollars to transfer ownership of their vacation timeshares to shell corporations.

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I'll preface this post by saying that I by no means condone or defend the Viking Ship model. I think it's reprehensible (Yeah, I know this has been discussed ad nauseum in other threads) but technically it's still legal (at least for now).

So with that, I was reading some of the comments at the end of that article and one poster who goes by the screen name Ducky summed up these defendants' MO and then closed by asking, "While its sick what they are doing. How is it illegal?"

If they are indeed transferring deeds into a shell corporation, then they are doing what the TS owners are paying them to do --- transfer the deed out of their name. That's not a scam.

The only way it might be a scam is if the resort/s successfully challenge the deed transfer due to illegal conveyance and the original owners get stuck with the ownership while these defendants make off with the money.

If they are charged with anything, it should be for defrauding the resorts by not paying the MFs.

Again, I abhor the Viking ships' actions (and I certainly wouldn't shed a tear if legislation makes their actions illegal) but I just don't see how these elderly owners were actually scammed.

im pretty sure its been established that transferring debt to a corporation or entity where you knowingly intend to abandon it and or ignore the financial obligations is indeed illegal.

proving that is probably the hard part however.


the only way i see the "owners" being victims, is if these entities didnt bother transferring the title, and hence the owners are still getting mf bills after paying those upfront fees to "get out"

TUGBrian said:

im pretty sure its been established that transferring debt to a corporation or entity where you knowingly intend to abandon it and or ignore the financial obligations is indeed illegal.

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Are they "transferring debt to a corporation " ?? I'd say they are transferring a TS which the developers say is worth thousands of dollars. ( at least the developer is selling it to people for thousands of dollars) Therefore they are not "technically" doing any thing illegal.

Does the viking ship model hurt TSs? Probably. BUT these viking ships are putting pressure onto the TS developers of these resorts " they can either take them back or the corp will declare bankruptcy" A single owner has no leverage, a corp with lots of weeks does.

IMHO, TS developers need to be forced to either stop selling a product for $$$$ if they know once sold it has no value. OR forced to take back their product ( if it is fully paid for) when a owner finds they can not sell it / give it away.

Bill4728 said:

IMHO, TS developers need to be forced to either stop selling a product for $$$$ if they know once sold it has no value. OR forced to take back their product ( if it is fully paid for) when a owner finds they can not sell it / give it away.

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Just to clarify, when there is a developer out there selling a product for big money and at the same time there are owners who can't give the product away, that in IMHO should be illegal.
But, If the resort is sold out, then there is no developer to be forced to do anything.

30,000 victims in this one incident alone and we get what, about a hundred or so inquires a year asking about this company or that company that wants to help people out of their timeshares?

We've got a lot of work to do to get the word out.

jsfletch said:

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...camming-30000-timeshare-owners-210440531.html

Right in my own backyard. I thought this only happened in Fla.
Any one have a guess as to the sentence they will receive?
Feds don't think they will recover much if any of the money.

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Not a chance. They are spread way out around the country now. I've been doing some digging since I've gotten so many calls about my timeshare from companies like this. I think I've clocked numbers from 15 different states.

eh, says in the article they are aware of 25 different entities run by them in multiple states...id imagine the state has their ducks in a row to go after them at this point...state went after them in 07 for the same thing:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/7_on_your_side&id=5475716


and im pretty sure I recall the state going after them even before that...but admittedly I may have that confused with some other folk (they are so numerous)

TUGBrian said:

the only way i see the "owners" being victims, is if these entities didnt bother transferring the title, and hence the owners are still getting mf bills after paying those upfront fees to "get out"

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That's right. But the article says that the Gibbses were transferring ownership to shell corporations --- likely with the intent of defaulting on MFs and having the resorts foreclose on the properties. As much as many of us TUGGERS despise this practice, at present, it is still legal.

And the defendants (the Gibbses) did what the owners paid them to do. Nothing in the article says that they made off with the money while not performing the services they were paid to do. So, again, I don't see how the owners were scammed

The biggest victims in all of this would be the resorts and their respective HOAs.

one would imagine this case involves a variety of reported activities over the past few years.

heres an article with a bit more detail as to why they are going after them:

http://www.blscourierherald.com/news/210760071.html

AG Ferguson has filed a complaint against Jonathan and Christine Gibbs of Olympia for unlawful conduct. The Attorney General’s Office (AGO) alleges the Gibbs offered to transfer timeshare ownership from owners who no longer wished to own their timeshares. They allege the couple would then facilitate a “transfer” but would not pay the underlying obligation or maintenance on the properties. In some cases, consumers paid the Gibbs to execute transfers, which were improperly executed. Without telling consumers, they transferred timeshares to their own businesses or paid people to have their signatures put on title documents.


“If you don’t play by the rules, we’ll hold you accountable,” said Washington State Attorney General Bob Ferguson. “This large, complex scheme involved unfair and deceptive business practices that harmed hundreds of victims locally and thousands nationwide.”

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TUGBrian said:

heres an article with a bit more detail as to why they are going after them:

http://www.blscourierherald.com/news/210760071.html

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“This large, complex scheme involved unfair and deceptive business practices that harmed hundreds of victims locally and thousands nationwide.”


This sounds like another day at the office for most developer sales teams.

After reading the complaint it looks like the bulk of the AG's action is due to lying to customers in marketing materials and not disclosing where the timeshare would be going.

From a lay-person's perspective, it looks like it was not the action of transferring the units that was illegal but rather not properly informing the customers where their unit was REALLY going and lying in the marketing material to get them to the meetings. It also mentioned that they lied in the presentations as well to close the sale.

If anyone else has read the complaint and got a different idea please let me know your thoughts.

Sorry, I forgot to post the link to the complaint in WA: http://www.atg.wa.gov/uploadedFiles/Home/About_the_Office/Cases/consumer_protection/ComplaintFinal.pdf

Another Way to Rid Your Family of a Timeshare

TUGBrian said:

heres an article with a bit more detail as to why they are going after them:

http://www.blscourierherald.com/news/210760071.html

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From what I have read on TUG another way to rid your family of a timeshare is to put the ownership in a trust of an elderly person and when they pass away have the trustees not accept the property to transfer into their name.

Is this a viable option? If is it is, it does get rid of the timeshare that is not wanted. However, from what I understand it does leave the HOA and other owners of the timeshare stuck with paying higher maintenance fees since there is one less owner of the weekly shares.