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Old November 5, 2007, 12:15 PM   #1
Steamboat Bill
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Manor CLub 2008 dues

I just received my 2008 MMC dues statement with a 18.5% increase over 2007.

2007 annual dues = $713

2008 annual dues = $845 (18.5% increase)

The breakdown is:
2008 property tax = 59.74
2008 Operating Fee = 547.26
2008 replacement reserve = 238.00

What is wrong with Marriott increasing fees 18.5%???

I am glad I joined a Destination Club (High Country Club) where they limit annual dues increases to CPI + 2% max.
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Old November 5, 2007, 02:03 PM   #2
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But aren't the annual dues at HCC about $2,200 a week right now, Bill - and I suspect they don't include free golf? I think we'd all dump our TS if they got that high.

The biggest jump in the MF at MMC/MSE was for reserves. Big Matt is there this week and gonna find out why this came outta nowhere.

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Old November 5, 2007, 05:44 PM   #3
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There was a post several months back (CMF maybe) that indicated the units were not being maintained all that well. Perhaps not to Marriott standards at least.

If that's true then I suspect management hadn't been putting enough in the reserve to cover necessary maintenance and upkeep. Rather than hit owners with an SA they may have elected to just jack up the reserve funding to cover necessary maintenance and upkeep issues. Keep in mind this is nothing but pure speculation on my part from post I think I recall reading (my recollection isn't always that great).

Marriott has some of the highest MF's in the industry and they don't seem shy about increasing them exponentially. Especially once a resort is sold out. In 2005 our Ocean Pointe MF's were $895, which doesn't seem all that far off from what they were when we first purchased in December of 2001. This year they're up to $1,312 (including that stupid FL Club membership fee).

I love my resort and want it maintained to the highest of standards. Marriott has been doing pretty well with that at Ocean Pointe and the resort has a LOT to keep up with, high property taxes and a higher cost of living forcing wages to be higher. But still 10% a year (or more) is getting a little tough to swallow.

Heck, almost all of our timeshares have gone up 7 to 10% a year in MF costs. The one that did not hit owners up for a SA over $1,000 for each 2 bedroom unit. I love timesharing but have to wonder how long I can absorb these sort of increases.
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Old November 5, 2007, 06:11 PM   #4
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But aren't the annual dues at HCC about $2,200 a week right now
Yes, but you are not making a fair comparison as these are two different products.

My comparison was on the % increase in annual dues. HCC increase has been less than 5% for current owners as we are locked into a set rate when we join. Marriott, on the other hand, seems to think it is fair to raise rates to whatever they think they can get, no matter if it is 15% or more increase.

I still think MMC is a good deal, but at these rate of increase, I can see a lot of people dumping Marriott and simply renting.

Manor Club % increases over the last few years:
2.74% - 2002
3.67% -2003
0.00% - 2004
4.32% - 2005
4.94% - 2006
11.93% - 2007
18.51% - 2008

Clearly 2007 and 2008 are HUGE jumps as compared to the other years.

Last edited by Steamboat Bill; November 5, 2007 at 06:53 PM.
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Old November 5, 2007, 07:18 PM   #5
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I think the increase is ridiculous.

I could understand if there was a large jump in operating costs due to the increase in oil prices,inflation,lumber,copper etc. But to have operating costs go down and the Replacement Reserve jump 350% or so is crazy. If this is what is truly needed, then there obviously has been serious mismanagement of funds in the previous years.

It makes it worse that there is no explanation given along with the bill. As I said in another thread, I am not going to be surprised if a large number of MC units start hitting the resale market and prices start to trend downward.

I also am curious to know if this large amount of replacement reserve is going to be a one time thing which will bring fees back down next year, or if this is going to continue year after year.
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Old November 5, 2007, 08:14 PM   #6
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As I said in another thread, I am not going to be surprised if a large number of MC units start hitting the resale market and prices start to trend downward.
How much lower can they go?

This is the lowest priced 2 bedroom Platinum week in the Marriott family. You can get a resale week for $8,0000-$10,000 depending on ROFR.
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Old November 5, 2007, 08:34 PM   #7
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Bill ... For only 15 nights a year, the High Country Club www.highcountryclub.com annual dues for Associate members joining after Nov 30 are going to $4,300 from $3,500 representing a 22% increase. In addition, the membership fee is going up 33% for those new members. Percentagewise - these are huge increases. Marriott would be proud of them!

They are different products of course, but everyone makes the TS vs DC comparisons, even the salespeople. Many TS people here would be concerned having to pay MF of $4,300 for just 2 weeks - regardless of whatever comparison are made, and in the process MMC look like a bargain, especially with the golf!

Surely that tells you where the annual fees are eventually going with Destination Clubs too. With less than 300 customers presently, if HCC can keep to their promised hold on MF for current members for many years I'll be very surprised. HCC is only 2-3 years old - an infant in a new biz - and their places will suffer wear and tear just like a TS does. Do you really think the new members will be the only ones that have to pay the increased costs of upkeep and refurbs?

Again ... I'm sure you know the reserve fund is not a Marriott increase. While owners did not have the courtesy of an explanatory note from the MMC HOA, the reserve fund is to help keep this resort up to the standards it had right from the beginning and perhaps shows bad management in prior years when increases were as little as 0%!

Brian



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Originally Posted by Steamboat Bill View Post
Yes, but you are not making a fair comparison as these are two different products.

My comparison was on the % increase in annual dues. HCC increase has been less than 5% for current owners as we are locked into a set rate when we join. Marriott, on the other hand, seems to think it is fair to raise rates to whatever they think they can get, no matter if it is 15% or more increase.

I still think MMC is a good deal, but at these rate of increase, I can see a lot of people dumping Marriott and simply renting.

Manor Club % increases over the last few years:
2.74% - 2002
3.67% -2003
0.00% - 2004
4.32% - 2005
4.94% - 2006
11.93% - 2007
18.51% - 2008

Clearly 2007 and 2008 are HUGE jumps as compared to the other years.
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Old November 5, 2007, 08:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamboat Bill View Post
How much lower can they go?

This is the lowest priced 2 bedroom Platinum week in the Marriott family. You can get a resale week for $8,0000-$10,000 depending on ROFR.
In the last 18 months resale prices have been trending up. In early 2006 there were sales of MMC in the $6500 range and in August of last year I purchased MMC platinum for $7100. I think its certainly possible that prices could return to that level.
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Old November 5, 2007, 09:52 PM   #9
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Bill ... For only 15 nights a year, the High Country Club www.highcountryclub.com annual dues for Associate members joining after Nov 30 are going to $4,300 from $3,500 representing a 22% increase. In addition, the membership fee is going up 33% for those new members. Percentagewise - these are huge increases. Marriott would be proud of them!
You are not making a fair comparison.

The locked-in rate of increase for all HCC member yearly dues is CPI + 2%.

The 22% increase is only for new members joining after December 1st, not current members. That would be like comparing MMC with the new Marco Island Marriott where 1 week of timeshare costs $50,000 to buy.
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Old November 5, 2007, 10:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamboat Bill View Post
Manor Club % increases over the last few years:
2.74% - 2002
3.67% -2003
0.00% - 2004
4.32% - 2005
4.94% - 2006
11.93% - 2007
18.51% - 2008

Clearly 2007 and 2008 are HUGE jumps as compared to the other years.
Those are certainly significant increases the last 2 years. How long has Manor Club had sold out status? It seems to me that Ocean Pointe's MF's really didn't start jumping significantly until after they were nearly sold out.

Unfortunately, I haven't been smart enough to retain all of my records from the start showing what the MF's were for every year we've owned.
At least I don't believe I have. Only a couple of years ago did I change my filing method for my timeshares and that was because I was getting to many to keep track of. I suppose what I should do is go back to some of my old documents and old files put away from previous years to see if I can dig the old MF bills out.

I usually don't throw things away but I have been know to misplace them from time to time.

In the end anylysis though Manor Club still has some of the lowest MF's for a Marriott resort out there.
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Old November 5, 2007, 11:43 PM   #11
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Again ... I'm sure you know the reserve fund is not a Marriott increase. While owners did not have the courtesy of an explanatory note from the MMC HOA, the reserve fund is to help keep this resort up to the standards it had right from the beginning and perhaps shows bad management in prior years when increases were as little as 0%!
I don't expect MMC to have a 0% or below CPI increase in annual dues. It just seems like 2007 and 2008 have been EXTREMELY high increases compared to the previous years.

I believe the reserve fund will now have about $35,000 per unit if they collect all 52 weeks for all units. That should go a long way towards improvements. Hopefully 2009 will have a annual dues reduction (wishful thinking).

However, they should have been building this up gradually over the years and not sticking it to us so rapidly.
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Old November 6, 2007, 12:33 AM   #12
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I may be in the minority, but I am glad that Manor Club is increasing the amount that is going into the reserve fund. The posts of a few months ago complaining about poor maintenance and conditions troubled me a lot more than a hefty increase in the reserve fee. That money is directly invested in the resort.

If the operating fee or management fee increased by 18% in one year, it would concern me. But reserve fees go towards maintaining and improving the property. Manor Club is a gorgeous resort. It takes a lot of money to keep it that way. Clearly, they weren't setting aside enough in prior years. Now they are taking steps to correct that. Hopefully, they will have enough so that further increases won't be necessary for the next couple of years. But I'm not going to bash the HOA for wanting to keep our resort in top notch shape.

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Old November 6, 2007, 06:28 AM   #13
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Hopefully, they will have enough so that further increases won't be necessary for the next couple of years.
The key word is "hopefully"
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Old November 6, 2007, 10:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Steamboat Bill View Post
I don't expect MMC to have a 0% or below CPI increase in annual dues. It just seems like 2007 and 2008 have been EXTREMELY high increases compared to the previous years.

I believe the reserve fund will now have about $35,000 per unit if they collect all 52 weeks for all units. That should go a long way towards improvements. Hopefully 2009 will have a annual dues reduction (wishful thinking).

However, they should have been building this up gradually over the years and not sticking it to us so rapidly.
I agree.

Rather than increase the amount of the replacement reserve in the maintenance fees, I would have rather had a special assessment of that amount if it was needed to add to the reserve.

Doing that would make it seem like a one time charge unlike now where our fees may be higher than this next year.
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Old November 6, 2007, 12:35 PM   #15
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our fees may be higher than this next year.
That appears to be a extremely strong possibility. If they bump it up another 15%, I would bet there will be many resales listed.
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Old November 16, 2007, 09:25 AM   #16
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So has anybody talked to somone on the board? Any new explanation of why the dues have been going up so fast?

Ray
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Old November 16, 2007, 04:22 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Steamboat Bill View Post
Manor Club % increases over the last few years:
2.74% - 2002
3.67% -2003
0.00% - 2004
4.32% - 2005
4.94% - 2006
11.93% - 2007
18.51% - 2008

Average annual increase over the cited 7 year period - 6.6 % (lower if present value is taken into account).

So, if the last two years represent the new trend, this is a very real concern. If they are but an anomaly, the overall rate of increase is still within a reasonable range (albeit on the high side of reasonable). It would be interesting to hear what the board has to say about the projected rate of increase in the future.
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Old November 16, 2007, 04:30 PM   #18
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This is the lowest priced 2 bedroom Platinum week in the Marriott family. You can get a resale week for $8,0000-$10,000 depending on ROFR.
I have seen platinum weeks at Fairway Villas listed for less than that, on occassion. If I recall correctly, FV has no rofr. However, FV units are not lock off and dont seem to trade as well as MMC.
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