[ 2008 ] Right of First Refusal - Westgate

MyHD120 · Apr 10, 2008

I am currently in the process of selling my Westgate Vacation Villas week and am running into the 'Right of First Refusal' clause(?). I see this term nowhere in my contract. I bought in 1991. Any and all advice would be appreciated.

Gary

Bill4728 · Apr 10, 2008

As a seller, this shouldn't be any problem for you. If Westgate says they have ROFR and they say they want to match the buyers offer, you just sell it to Westgate for the same terms.

PS it likely that Westgate doesn't have ROFR but that is really only a problem for a buyer who is trying to get a great deal.

MyHD120 · Apr 10, 2008

Bill4728 said:
As a seller, this shouldn't be any problem for you. If Westgate says they have ROFR and they say they want to match the buyers offer, you just sell it to Westgate for the same terms.

PS it likely that Westgate doesn't have ROFR but that is really only a problem for a buyer who is trying to get a great deal.

The problem with ROFR is that Westgate can match and or increase the offer and drag the process out until you lose the original buyer and the cost that everyone involved in the sale loses. Then they can pull out.

The other problem is that when a real estate broker does the deal Westgate gets half the commission, off the top! This increases the loss to you of something you've already taken a tremendous loss on. If Westgate were to buy it they would also take their commission (at least, this is what I've heard), and who knows what that is. Westgate has taken too much money from me already. They've changed the rules over the years and it makes the week mostly usless to me.

If I can prove that there is no ROFR on my 1991 week I can put the $750+ dollars in my pocket.

I do appreciate your input.

Gary

timeos2 · Apr 10, 2008

Another Wastegate tale. They all sound the same.

Send them a certified letter, return receipt, giving them 5 business days to produce a certified copy of the 1991 Declaration and/or Public Offering Statement, filed and approved by the State, that gives them the ROFR. Also copy the Florida State DBPR. VERY IMPORTANT as thats the group that regulates timeshares and Wastegate can't cross them.

If they can't produce that document (hint - they can't as it didn't exist) then you are free to sell without Wastegate interference or "commissions". Don't let them get away with it. They are depending on your doubt and lack of knowledge to accept their rules. Even if they changed the documents later (it seems they did) that only applies to new sales after that date - it is NOT retroactive as the original declaration you purchased under (or the original buyer did if yours is a resale) will always rule. It cannot be altered.

Please let us know how it goes as there are plenty here and those that stop by to read that need to know how to handle this obnoxious organization. Make them put up or shut up as it were. You shouldn't have to go through this but it helps all owners to beat Wastegate every chance we get.

MyHD120 · Apr 11, 2008

John,

Thanks for the reply. I will do as you suggest and post the results.

Unfortunetly, for me, I paid full fare for my timeshare in 1991. I've let several weeks, banked with Westgate, expire because I could not travel on my assigned week and the upgrade fee was to expensive. This year I tried to exchange into Westgate's Gatlinsburg property and was quoted an upgrade fee of $1000.($500 per week) plus the standard exchange fee.

I can't continue to pay T&M of $700+ each year for something I can't use and I surely don't want to see the King Weasel profit anymore from my misfortune.

Gary

durrod · Apr 11, 2008

Use II to exchange your week

One alternative to let your weeks expired due to Westgate rudiculous upgrade fees is to use II. It seems that there is a brand/group priority, and you can exchange with most other westgate resorts at any time. You should not have any problem trading to the Gatlinburg resort using II. I own a value week there (TN) and as long I plan my exchanges I CAN go at any time of the year. Using II instead of the resort internal system is the WAY to GO.
Westgate upgrade + exchange fee is a big Rip-Off.
I love my resort but it is true that Westgate is always looking for ways to get more money for nothing.

Beaware!!

Bill4728 · Apr 11, 2008

MyHD120 said:
The problem with ROFR is that Westgate can match and or increase the offer and drag the process out until you lose the original buyer and the cost that everyone involved in the sale loses. Then they can pull out.

The other problem is that when a real estate broker does the deal Westgate gets half the commission, off the top! This increases the loss to you of something you've already taken a tremendous loss on. If Westgate were to buy it they would also take their commission (at least, this is what I've heard), and who knows what that is. Westgate has taken too much money from me already. They've changed the rules over the years and it makes the week mostly usless to me.

If I can prove that there is no ROFR on my 1991 week I can put the $750+ dollars in my pocket.

I do appreciate your input.

Gary

Gary,

This is not how ROFR is expected to work!! They have the right to the same deal as the other buyer. They can't add fees or commissions over and above what the other buyer agreeded to.

Sorry about this.

MyHD120 · Apr 11, 2008

Bill4728 said:
Gary,

This is not how ROFR is expected to work!! They have the right to the same deal as the other buyer. They can't add fees or commissions over and above what the other buyer agreeded to.

Sorry about this.

If anyone is interested I have PDF files from TimeSharing Today. I can send Them by email. Maybe a mod. can post them to this site. They explain pretty much Westgate's tactics. This all seems to have coalesced in 2004. It's a very interesting read.

Jim McLaren · Apr 11, 2008

MyHD120 said:
If anyone is interested I have PDF files from TimeSharing Today. I can send Them by email. Maybe a mod. can post them to this site. They explain pretty much Westgate's tactics. This all seems to have coalesced in 2004. It's a very interesting read.

While I'm sure it's interesting reading TSToday would frown on sharing copyrighted material. Sharing this info with friends and family is one thing. Sharing it with the whole world is another.

MyHD120 · Apr 12, 2008

Jim McLaren said:
While I'm sure it's interesting reading TSToday would frown on sharing copyrighted material. Sharing this info with friends and family is one thing. Sharing it with the whole world is another.

Thank you for your concern. You are most likely right. However, I wrote TSToday about sharing their articles with TUG and await their reply.

Bill4728 · Apr 12, 2008

I believe that the general policy about reprinting articles here on TUG is that TUG will let you reprint some small portions of an article with a link to the full article.

MyHD120 · Apr 12, 2008

Bill4728 said:
I believe that the general policy about reprinting articles here on TUG is that TUG will let you reprint some small portions of an article with a link to the full article.

This might work but you have to subscribe to TSToday to read the archives (back issues). Hopefully, TSToday will answer my email with some good news so this information can be shared.

wcfr1 · Apr 12, 2008

MyHD120 said:
The problem with ROFR is that Westgate can match and or increase the offer and drag the process out until you lose the original buyer and the cost that everyone involved in the sale loses. Then they can pull out.

The other problem is that when a real estate broker does the deal Westgate gets half the commission, off the top! This increases the loss to you of something you've already taken a tremendous loss on. If Westgate were to buy it they would also take their commission (at least, this is what I've heard), and who knows what that is. Westgate has taken too much money from me already. They've changed the rules over the years and it makes the week mostly usless to me.

If I can prove that there is no ROFR on my 1991 week I can put the $750+ dollars in my pocket.

I do appreciate your input.

Gary

You could certainly try the certified mail thing as many would be interested in the outcome. I have never understood how the ROFR could be applied to owners when it was not part of their original contract but they tell me over and over that was changed for all owners. How, when, where is not really clear but what is clear is that they are doing it.

Whether a ROFR is good or bad has been debated back and forth here on TUG before but my experience selling multiple weeks here is that it has actually driven my resale price up and made me a few more dollars. On my last sale the buyer had already lost a week he bid on when Westgate exercised the ROFR. So whe he made me an offer he raised his price to help ensure he got it. Well they exercised it again and he will have to offer the next seller a few more dollars until they decide to pass. This actually put a few more dollars in my pocket.

If you sold your week for $750 I guarantee they will exercise it. My most recent value week sold for $1750 and Westgate matched it.

Hopefully you didn't hire a broker or pay someone to sell your week for only $750. I have never sold a unit through a broker but I think there is something about a commision if you don't use their recognized broker, whoever that may be.

Most of your fears about the sale are not accurate. I have sold many of my Westgate weeks over the last few years and have not experienced what you "have heard".

If you want to persue your sale first you mail Westgate a letter telling them you have entered into a private transaction between you and a buyer.

You should include your sales agreemet outlining price and who pays for what, what happens to the week this year and when the sale takes place etc. What and how much you tell Westgate is up to you.

They will then send you a letter saying that they are either exercising their ROFR or they are not.

If they do, there is no change in price, no barttering, no backing out etc. They are just purchasing your week under all the conditions outlined in your sales agreement.

It is my experience that from the time you receive their letter it takes about three months to get all the paper work done and a check in your hand.

If you have any questions on my resale experience or need names or numbers for the right people to move forward on this simply send me an e-mail or Private Message.

timeos2 · Apr 12, 2008

We don't have it but we don't care so why would we care?

wcfr1 said:
You could certainly try the certified mail thing as many would be interested in the outcome. I have never understood how the ROFR could be applied to owners when it was not part of their original contract but they tell me over and over that was changed for all owners. How, when, where is not really clear but what is clear is that they are doing it.

If they do, there is no change in price, no barttering, no backing out etc. They are just purchasing your week under all the conditions outlined in your sales agreement.

It is my experience that from the time you receive their letter it takes about three months to get all the paper work done and a check in your hand.

If you have any questions on my resale experience or need names or numbers for the right people to move forward on this simply send me an e-mail or Private Message.

They don't have the right and thats the whole key. They cannot "change it for all owners" as, much to the Kings disliking, actual laws and regulations apply to deeded ownerships - not the ever changing whims of the money grubbing brain trust at Wastegate.

There was a time line published for an uninformed seller who fell for the "we have ROFR" from Wastgate a few years back. In very condensed form he had a legitimate buyer in November of one year and sold his week as is his absolute right. Four months later in February the closing was, due to mistaken belief in the non-existent ROFR, submitted to Wastegate (who, as a subplot DO try to change terms, prices, etc in direct violation of ROFR IF it even existed for these weeks!). A month later Wastegate says they are exercising ROFR and taking the week. The closing gets reversed, money returned, the sale is transferred to Wastegate hands and - nothing! Fast forward to 1.5 months later after Wastegate says "the exercise was a mistake" then "oh, there is no ROFR"!

No sale, no buyer (who in their right mind would deal with this group?) and the original seller still owes the fees which Wastegate is billing WITH LATE FEES despite their illegal actions.

And anyone wonders why Wastegate is the scumpit of timeshare and ROFR - no matter who pulls the strings - is just another unwanted roadblock to seller and buyers in a market that is already one of the weakest known.

No amount of warnings against Wastegate in particular and ROFR in general are really enough as long as buyers/sellers continue to fall into the trap.

wcfr1 · Apr 12, 2008

timeos2 said:
illegal actions. QUOTE]

Of course I can only tell you my experience which has not been a problem with the ROFR and the increase in my sale price. Others are of course free to post their experiences.

John- I do have a question for you. Your opinion on Westgate is obvious and well known and I have tried to make clear that I do not doubt your experiences or your right to feel the way you do.

But I was wondering. You often use the term "illegal actions" in your posts. When I read that I often wonder if that is true, why has there not been any lawsuits, criminal investigations or regulatory action against these actions. And if there have been actions taken how are the "illegal actions" allowed to continue?

Let's not mix DS's personal legal mess which can't be defended with the companies selling and opertional practices.

Am truly interested in your thoughts why.

Thanks
Lou

timeos2 · Apr 12, 2008

Parking in a noparking zone is illegal. Extortion is illegal.

wcfr1 said:
timeos2 said:

illegal actions. QUOTE]

But I was wondering. You often use the term "illegal actions" in your posts. When I read that I often wonder if that is true, why has there not been any lawsuits, criminal investigations or regulatory action against these actions. And if there have been actions taken how are the "illegal actions" allowed to continue?

Let's not mix DS's personal legal mess which can't be defended with the companies selling and opertional practices.

Am truly interested in your thoughts why.

Thanks
Lou

Click to expand...

If a company chooses to interfere with owners legal rights, in this case with a bogus ROFR that they admit doesn't exist when pressured to do so simply to ruin a legal sale, that is an illegal action. Claims of a right to a commission - and withholding proper recording/recognition of a sale until they extract it - is border line blackmail or possibly extortion, also illegal. If they insisted on those "rights" and it actually went to a court it would, most likely - never say anything for sure in guessing what a court will rule, be found to be in violation of business and real estate laws. Just because we don't know that has occurred (if it did you can be sure the lawyers for Wastegate would bury it from public view as deeply as possible with non-disclosures, etc) it isn't "legal until proven illegal". An illegal action is one that violates laws. Claiming rights they don't hold, queering legitimate sales and what amounts to harassment of buyers and sellers is illegal.

Done without one mention of the questionable personal habits of the King or his conviction for those .

wcfr1 · Apr 12, 2008

I understand what makes an action illegal.

I was wondering if the actions were so blatant why have they not been challenged legally? And if they have been succesfully challenged how could they continue?

You were an owner right? Did you challenge somehow?

timeos2 · Apr 12, 2008

FUD keeps people fooled

wcfr1 said:
I understand what makes an action illegal.

I was wondering if the actions were so blatant why have they not been challenged legally? And if they have been succesfully challenged how could they continue?

You were an owner right? Did you challenge somehow?

Unfortunately I remain an owner. They haven't, to my knowledge, been challenged because when forced to produce the documentation of the "rights" they back off. And for a single owner to spend the money it would take to get through a court case for the return of a few thousand dollars simply isn't worth it to most. The perpetrators of such things depend on the lack of knowledge by the marks, Fear Uncertainty and doubt as well as the prohibitive costs to insulate them from legal challenges. For this group, so far, it appears to have worked. When they are able to hoodwink the sellers they get undeserved income - when they get called on it they back off and avoid legal issues. Hopefully the game will end if enough owners let the State know whats going on and the process will stop. Thus the recommended certified letters to the State as well as Wastegate when the claim is made.

MyHD120 · Apr 13, 2008

wcfr1 said:
You could certainly try the certified mail thing as many would be interested in the outcome. I have never understood how the ROFR could be applied to owners when it was not part of their original contract but they tell me over and over that was changed for all owners. How, when, where is not really clear but what is clear is that they are doing it.

Whether a ROFR is good or bad has been debated back and forth here on TUG before but my experience selling multiple weeks here is that it has actually driven my resale price up and made me a few more dollars. On my last sale the buyer had already lost a week he bid on when Westgate exercised the ROFR. So whe he made me an offer he raised his price to help ensure he got it. Well they exercised it again and he will have to offer the next seller a few more dollars until they decide to pass. This actually put a few more dollars in my pocket.

If you sold your week for $750 I guarantee they will exercise it. My most recent value week sold for $1750 and Westgate matched it.

Hopefully you didn't hire a broker or pay someone to sell your week for only $750. I have never sold a unit through a broker but I think there is something about a commision if you don't use their recognized broker, whoever that may be.

Most of your fears about the sale are not accurate. I have sold many of my Westgate weeks over the last few years and have not experienced what you "have heard".

If you want to persue your sale first you mail Westgate a letter telling them you have entered into a private transaction between you and a buyer.

You should include your sales agreemet outlining price and who pays for what, what happens to the week this year and when the sale takes place etc. What and how much you tell Westgate is up to you.

They will then send you a letter saying that they are either exercising their ROFR or they are not.

If they do, there is no change in price, no barttering, no backing out etc. They are just purchasing your week under all the conditions outlined in your sales agreement.

It is my experience that from the time you receive their letter it takes about three months to get all the paper work done and a check in your hand.

If you have any questions on my resale experience or need names or numbers for the right people to move forward on this simply send me an e-mail or Private Message.

OK. Here’s my scenario. I contacted a broker because I didn’t want to deal with all the BS that comes with selling a timeshare. Especially since I would be taking a big hit. I paid almost 25k for that week in 1991. This includes interest on the mortgage but not the T&M.. Since that is the past lets not get into how I could have done it better.

The broker has no up-front listing fees or advertising fees. They said I could list the week for $2000 to $4000. If the week sold for more than $3000 I would be charged an administration fee of $200 plus a commission of $1500. If less than $3000, the commission would be $1000. Plus the admin fee. The reason for the high commission is that they have to split it with Westgate. And, I assume, that is because they have exclusive rights from Westgate to be their broker. And, again I assume, that even if I can prove there is no ROFR on my week, Westgate will still require the commission from the broker if they want to stay in bed with Westgate. So, the $750+ I mentioned would be the additional commission I’d get to keep. Not the price I am looking to sell the week for.

One of the “perks” that sold me to buy the week was being able to exchange anywhere, anytime, with only the cost of an exchange fee. Well, they changed the rules at halftime in that they now charge a prohibitive upgrade fee. This is supposedly to stop owners of “value” weeks (this was not the case when I bought. Red was RED) from exchanging into other “red” weeks of owners who bought the better weeks. A rhetorical question? Does the upgrade fee go to the owner of the “red RED” week? I think not!

I bought with the express reason to vacation when school was still in so as not to have to deal with hoards of children, not because the week was cheaper. At the time this was the best of all worlds. Truly, Westgate does not care about ‘owners’.

MyHD120 · Apr 13, 2008

I've gotten a reply from TSToday listed below. If someone knows how to inform a moderator so that we can get these articles published here on TUG please do so. I might have made a mistake in saying I was a member of TUG. I think I'm just a member of the forum.

<<""Gary, you have our permission provided that you indicate the source of the article, include our website (www.tstoday.com) and indicate that all issues back to 1997 are available online.

Ray Jacobs
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary (Last name deleted for security reasons)
To: staff@tstoday.com
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:48 AM
Subject: Share Articles

I belong to TimeShare Users Group (TUG). I would like to request permission to post some of your articles about Westgate's ROFR from 2004 on that site for other members to see. This might even bring you more members. Please advise.

Regards,
Gary ">>

krissydee · Apr 14, 2008

The reason for the high commission is that they have to split it with Westgate. And, I assume, that is because they have exclusive rights from Westgate to be their broker. And, again I assume, that even if I can prove there is no ROFR on my week, Westgate will still require the commission from the broker if they want to stay in bed with Westgate.

Your broker doesn't have exclusive rights with westgate. Seigal wrote a clause into the contracts that if another real estate agent other than westgate sells their property, westgate automatically receives half of the commission, no matter who sold it. Considering Westgate doesn't have a resale dept at all, whichever agent sells westgates on resale gets screwed out of half their commission. It's a downright slimy move, but quite genius at the same time. A lot of extra money for Westgate for no additional work.

timeos2 · Apr 14, 2008

Wastegate will try to hoodwink you. Slam them instead. Remember copy the State

krissydee said:
Your broker doesn't have exclusive rights with westgate. Seigal wrote a clause into the contracts that if another real estate agent other than westgate sells their property, westgate automatically receives half of the commission, no matter who sold it. Considering Westgate doesn't have a resale dept at all, whichever agent sells westgates on resale gets screwed out of half their commission. It's a downright slimy move, but quite genius at the same time. A lot of extra money for Westgate for no additional work.

That is true - the sleaze bag did write it into the POS but not until around 2004 it seems (could be earlier but it is definitely after 2000 - read your disclosure to see if it applies to you or not).

The real problem is they try to bully ALL Wastegate owners into thinking they have it in their ownership documents when in fact the majority DO NOT (and no ROFR either). So besides being an impediment to sales if it does actually exist Wastegate tries to intimidate owners/resellers into paying them when they don't even have that clause.

Call them on it. See the proper way to demand they produce the "right" to ROFR or commissions above. If you (or the previous owner of you bought resale) purchased before 2004 most likely it's not in there. If you (or previous) bought before 2000 its DEFINITELY not in there. They CANNOT make retroactive changes to the sales agreement. Not legal. Even for an organization as downright deceptive and borderline illegal as Wastegate. Don't let them fool you.

LINAND · Apr 14, 2008

I am in the process of selling my Westgate timeshare that I bought in 1993.

Timeos2, thank you for recommending to John F. (who is handling my closing) that I write these two letters to Westgates legal Dept. and the Florida dept. of business and professional regulations regarding Westgates ROFR rules.

First, the Florida DBPR, called me back and said that I should send them a complaint form (I included the link) with any and all information that I have regarding Westgate and their ROFR policy which is NOT in my contract. which I plan to do as soon as I leave here. here is where you find the form. click on timeshare english version.
http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/lsc/division/LSCMHComplaintFormIndex.html

Also, Westgate responded by letter in which they instructed me that the ROFR can be found in my public offering statement book in article 22.

I looked and cannot find ANYWHERE in that article where it says the developer has the right to match any offer made from a buyer. the only thing that I see about resales in that article states:

" The purchase of a timeshare period should be based upon its value as a vacation experience or for spending leisure time, and not considered for purposes of acquiring an appreciating investment or with an expectation that the timeshare period may be resold."

maybe I am overlooking something here, but I just cannot find anything in my public offering statement about the developer having ROFR. in fact in my Acknowledgement of Representations that we signed (pink paper) when we purchased says on line # 3 :

I (we) understand that no representations have been made as to investment potential or resale potential. I (we, as in myself and my husband) HAVE THE RIGHT TO SELL OR TRANSFER ANY RIGHTS OF OWNERSHIP. I (we) acknowledge that I (we) have purchased primarily for person use and not for investment purposes."

I fully plan on filing a complaint about this. I have a buyer who wants my timeshare and I will in no way shape or form allow anybody to interfere with my sale unless they have something in writing to prove they have that right.

anyways, I hope this bit of information is helpful to the one who posted this thread.

thanks again Timeos2. Linda

LINAND · Apr 14, 2008

timeos2 said:
Don't let them fool you.

One things for sure, they haven't fooled me.

TUGBrian · Apr 14, 2008

MyHD120 said:
I've gotten a reply from TSToday listed below. If someone knows how to inform a moderator so that we can get these articles published here on TUG please do so. I might have made a mistake in saying I was a member of TUG. I think I'm just a member of the forum.

<<""Gary, you have our permission provided that you indicate the source of the article, include our website (www.tstoday.com) and indicate that all issues back to 1997 are available online.

Ray Jacobs
----- Original Message -----
From: Gary (Last name deleted for security reasons)
To: staff@tstoday.com
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 6:48 AM
Subject: Share Articles

I belong to TimeShare Users Group (TUG). I would like to request permission to post some of your articles about Westgate's ROFR from 2004 on that site for other members to see. This might even bring you more members. Please advise.

Regards,
Gary ">>

let me know what you would like posted and ill see what we can do.

I know we have an advice article that was published in TSToday as it was written by one of our members.

We have no problems whatsoever posting a link about TSToday as well as the link to their site on anything they let us reprint.

They are good people...met them at ARDA for the first time this year and hope TUG and TSToday can work towards complimenting each other more!

[ 2008 ] Right of First Refusal - Westgate

MyHD120

Bill4728

MyHD120

timeos2

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

MyHD120

durrod

Bill4728

MyHD120

Jim McLaren

MyHD120

Bill4728

MyHD120

wcfr1

timeos2

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

wcfr1

timeos2

Tug Review Crew: Rookie

wcfr1

timeos2

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MyHD120

MyHD120

krissydee

timeos2

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LINAND

LINAND

TUGBrian