WPORV.. Is my reasoning flawed?????

Help!! I just bought into the WPORV directly through Westin and paid full freight (56K). I am still in the recission period, but here is my reasoning for doing this rather than waiting for a possible resale purchase to come up (you should be able to tell from that comment that I did not find this site until after making the purchase):

1) I live near Los Angeles and it is the location I forsee myself using the most year after year after year;

2) It is a small property (relative to say WKOR) and I want to be able to lock in a slot during the 12 - 8 month preference period instead of playing the "wait and hope" game of trading from another location into Princeville;

3) It is a high demand location and I should be able to trade it pretty easily for all other SVN locations or rent it out through eBay or CL;

4) It is a newly developed location and will have many years left before it begins to show its age; and

5) Because it is a "voluntary" location (is that the right terminology?), a resale purchase there would not allow me to participate in the SVN network or the Starpoints trade option (even if not necessarily the best use of the property) if I were to wait around for a resale to become available.

Okay, let me know your thoughts? Am I missing something? Is my reasoning flawed?

Thanks.

Bill

Wow, you summed up your reasons VERY well for buying. I am not sure I can contribute any more to the positives of ownership at WPORV. Reports here have been very positive about the initial stays at the resort.

As for your purchase from Starwood, I just found 3 resales at WPORV on Redweek.com. One is asking price of 38,000 (which can probably purchased for about $32,000 I am guessing with some negotiating). So WPORV resales ARE out there already!

I think most people will tell you to rescind and buy resale. The only disadvantage will be to not get all the SPs (or the ability to convert to SPs), which is a horrible deal for WPORV anyway since your MFs each year are so high. While you can't trade via SVN with a "voluntary" resort, you can do individual trades easily with others, or deposit in II and get just about anything you want, with a resale week.

Alternatively, you can rescind. Then buy a resale week worth 148,100 SOs (anywhere, such as WMH or SMV). Then go back to your sales rep at WPORV, repurchase your week with the same SP incentives AND ask them to "retro" the resale week at the same time. What a good deal! You then bring a cheap resale week into SVN and double your SOs and SPs to use for travel or rental.

One other thought -- consider buying at WKORV resale OV unit for about $30,000. It is MANDATORY which means you will have 148,100 SOs each year to trade in the SVN system. You can then reserve a week at Princeville using SOs each year. Since there are no "views" at WPORV, it is the perfect unit to "trade into" rather than own at. At the same time, WKORV is cheaper to buy on resale and it's mandatory status will help it retain it's value a bit more than Princeville in the long run. You can still go to WPORV each year with your SOs but your resale value might be better protected than Princeville....

Katherine

Katherine,

Great reply. Thanks for your thoughts. The one thing I REALLY second guessed when I started reading these boards is not being able to retro in some resale week since I was going to buy directly from Westin at Princeville.

As my wife said though, "that seems like a lot more work," to be able to manage the time for a second timeshare week. I definitely see the pluses, but it would take some time and effort too. I'll have to think that one over.

One thought . . . the sales manager said they absolutely would NOT grant the SP bonus if we did not purchase at the time of the tour. Is this inaccurate?

Bill

uscesq said:

One thought . . . the sales manager said they absolutely would NOT grant the SP bonus if we did not purchase at the time of the tour. Is this inaccurate?

Bill

Click to expand...

Of course. Can you spell sales PRESSURE? You can get your SPs any time. You don't even have to go there. You can call the Starwood central sales office in Orlando and get the same deal (sometimes better) at any time. No worries.

Kath.

For the same amount of money, or less, you can buy ocean FRONT at WKORV - where resale units are part of the SVN....and these are some of the closest to the ocean units in Hawaii.

Rescind...do your homework...buy resale!

uscesq said:

Katherine,


One thought . . . the sales manager said they absolutely would NOT grant the SP bonus if we did not purchase at the time of the tour. Is this inaccurate?

Bill

Click to expand...

Not true, I called starwood direct 3 weeks ago and at that time the incentive for PORV was 150,000 starpoints EY purchase for 55,900 and 90,000 starpoint for eoy at 36,900.

Now is a really good time to buy resale Hawaii as they seem to be lower in price due to airfare costs, economy etc..

I would bet you could get an KORV island view for around 20k and Oceanview for 26K every year.

Hi Bill,

If you really prefer Kauai over Maui, I think you should buy there, esp if you want to go in high season. And if you really want the convenience of trading within SVN, then you'll have to buy from the developer. I know some people think you should buy another villa first and then retro that in with your WPORV villa, but that seems like a lot of work and money for something you didn't want in the first place.

Personally, I think I would be most torn about whether SVN is worth the extra dough you'll be doling out. I've used the network exactly once and have been very happy with my trade (platinum Hawaii 2 bdrm for platinum WSJ 2 bdrm). However, that's not to say that trading will always be as easy as it was for me. The more people that Starwood allows in, the less likely it will be for everyone to secure the trade they want, esp since other great locations such as Aruba are off the table for now.

Here are some other things you should know:

First and foremost, you lose your view when you trade. That $56k purchase price means nada at any other resort except your home resort. So would you ever want to trade an OV for an island view?

Second, all StarOptions are the same. So although you pay $2200 a year in MFs, you'll be competing with the people who pay $1100 a year for the same number of StarOptions.

Third, since you live in the West Coast, you'll have to get up at 5am at exactly 8 months out to try and exchange into the hot properties. (Starwood opens at 9am EST)

Fourth, if trading within II interests you, know that when you buy from Starwood (resale or not), you lose the ability to choose which villa is deposited into II. So although you paid for a platinum villa in Hawaii, they will probably never deposit a high season week into II on your behalf.

Since WPORV is brand new, the jury is still out as to how difficult it will be to trade into it. Since it's so small, it may be the new St. John, where everyone wants to go but few are able to get. If that's the case, then you'll be able to more easily negotiate direct trades, esp since WPORV is floating. In that case, belonging to SVN seems less and less attractive.

Also, as more and more owners at WPORV sell their villas on the resale market, fewer and fewer villas will be available to trade within SVN (because resale owners don't get to join SVN.) That means your trading ability as an owner, be it from the developer or on the resale market, will increase as time goes by because you'll be able to book the hottest weeks and use them to direct trade.

LisaRex said:

Third, since you live in the West Coast, you'll have to get up at 5am at exactly 8 months out to try and exchange into the hot properties.

Click to expand...

Correction: 6am, but yes, it's early.

EOY may be best

Another option: Since you do not want the extra work of requalifying a resale and you indicate you will want to trade someyears:

Buy the WPORV EOY that you desire (call starwood and have them change your every year to a EOY and buy a mandatory somewhere else resale.

That way you will have the WPORV priority EOY when you want to go there and you will have another option on the off year and total cost will likely be lower.

If you were to requalify you could buy a EOY resale 2 bedroom (cost $13000 including closing) somewhere like Westin Kierland in Scottsdale and than requalify it with an EOY WPORV (may get it for 1/2 ey cost since would already be a starwood member $28000)

Total cost $41,000 versus $56,000 and maintenance fees would be lower.

Thanks everyone for your very valuable responses.

Capjak and Denise: I don't see how buying a resale of an OF at WKORV assures me of getting what I want -- which is a week at WPORV during the summer months most years. Because WKORV would then be my "home" I would have to fight with every other owner to get into WPORV at the 8 month mark, correct? Were you thinking of a system of using private exchange instead because of the "value" of OF at WKORV? (p.s. capjack, I see in your most recent post your idea about converting to eoy and will have to give that one some serious thought). Granted, in the years I could not trade into Princeville I would be "stuck" with an OF at WKORV, which is not a bad place to be stuck but what if I can't get a trade into Princeville for years and years?

This brings up another point that I obviously need some help with: exchanges/rentals for those who own Hawaii property. How do most people who own at either WPORV or WKORV deal with the years they do not plan to go to that particular resort???? Book a week during high season (12 months out) and then try to work out a private exchange for another property or fall back on renting it privately?

I, maybe somewhat naively, thought it would not be that difficult to exchange my week at WPORV through SVN for other properties within the network. I can now envision, however, a system in which very few people who own in primetime at any resort actually put those weeks into the SVN system -- choosing instead to try to work out a private exchange or rent it out. Is this closer to how it actually works in practice?

LisaRex, your post was very helpful. From reading through this BB, I did know about the deposit issue into II. Since you say you have only traded through SVN one time, what do you do in the years you do not want to go to your home resort?

Thanks again everyone for the very helpful info -- what a great bunch you are!!!

Bill

Hi Bill - I rent my ocean view 2 bdm. at WKORV for $3,500. It's rented easily the last 2 years. I hope the economy and depressed travel to Hawaii don't change that.

Because I can rent my TS for a nice chunk of change, I would never exchange it or convert it to Starpoints, because I would rather have the cash, than take a chance on an exchange. (And yes, the only time I tried to use it for an exchange I did NOT get the exchange!)

I like Kauai too (we own 2 ocean front weeks there) but I NEED an ocean view and that is why I suggested OF at WKORV.

If you really want WPORV, I think it makes sense to buy resale for a fraction of the cost and then rent it the years you don't use it. Or, just buy an every other year contract - resale.

My own experience - we bought from the developer preconstruction at WKORV and paid $45K - now the same units are going for less than $30K on the resale market.... That's pretty painful! :annoyed: WKORV is a mandatory resort, and in the 5 years since it opened the resale value has gone down $15K. WPORV is a voluntary resort, and our economy isn't so great right now. I think this means that WPORV may depreciate even more.

This is what I would do. Right now you are under a lot of pressure to make a decision - not good. I would rescind, take my time, do a lot of research and then make a decision. No matter what the salesman told you I can assure you that you can get the same deal (or a better one) next week, next month, and next year.

I just wanted to add something about my 2 ocean front weeks on Kauai. I paid $1,500 and $1,300 for them on ebay....

Good luck!

Bill, I was in the process of negotiating a private trade with another owner from the Marriott Ocean Club in Aruba when my SVN trade went through. Being able to book a 2 bdrm villa during a summer month at a well regarded place in a popular destination and owning OF gives me a lot of trading power, esp if I'm willing to cross to other brands such as Marriott.

As a platinum OF owner, I'll never use II because I'll never be able to get an equitable exchange for the unit I bought and paid for. It kind of chaps my hide that Starwood screws its owners the way they do vis a vis II, but there it is.

Another advantage you'll have is that while Maui is becoming over-developed, Kauai is up and coming. With so few units at WPORV, that adds to its value, both as a direct trade or a rental. (Me? I'd rather not hassle with renting.)

As far as doing SVN trades, St. John is by far the hardest place to exchange into. The new construction has helped, but it will still be a challenge to get there unless you're willing to call 8 months out on the day and be flexible with your travel plans. Harborside is the next hardest trade. So don't buy thinking that SVN trades are a given there. They won't be. I wouldn't count on ever getting in during the summer months because the owners at those resorts will either book the units for their own use or to trade/rent out on their own.

The older sections of WSJ are fixed weeks. That is a positive and a negative. It's positive because as an owner you are guaranteed a week during the season you bought and the villa you bought. It's a negative because you're stuck with the same week every year. However, for resorts with so few units, it's probably the best system because otherwise a great percentage of owners would be vying for the high season weeks (e.g summer) and being disappointed and angry when they aren't able to get their trade. Of course, having platinum, silver, gold seasons helps with the bottleneck.

What concerns me about WPORV on your behalf, is that Starwood sells all their Hawaii resorts as straight platinum, float weeks when in reality Hawaii has definite high and low seasons. Summer and winter are the high seasons, spring and fall are low season. That means, in reality, that Hawaii resorts might actually sell out during some high season weeks, even during the home resort priority period. How crappy would that be?

Another thing to keep in mind is that if you want to or are able to travel during the shoulder seasons in the near future, you might not want to buy there at all. Why? Because whether we travel in high season or low, we still pay nearly $2k in MFs. You don't have to own in Hawaii to trade in during low season! So you're kind of foolish to pay $2k in MFs when you can pay $1100 at WKV and use your 148.1k StarOptions to trade into Hawaii (or WSJ).

Of course ANY SPG member can take advantage of the great deals Starwood offers to Hawaii during low season, such as a studio for 12k StarPoints or a 1-bedroom for 16k StarPoints + $90 cash. That is a really nice deal. Heck, had I known they'd be offering that, I'd have channeled all my spending to my Starwood AMEX and not bought a timeshare at all.



Anyway, enjoy the food for thought. If the $52k you spent won't be missed, I'm not sure how worried I'd be. If it will be missed, then I'd consider rescinding and further investigating my options.

I don't know if anyone else mentioned this or not, but if you are financing this purchase, that alone is a good reason to rescind. There are many lovely and affordable timeshares that you can pay cash for and not have to go into debt for a depreciating luxury purchase!

I would also strongly suggest rescinding here and taking the time to really make sure you are 100% certain of your decision. I would personally suggest you explore purchasing a "cheap" resale week somewhere like Westin Mission Hills where you can buy a 148k week for about 10k since it's voluntary. Then you could buy an EOY WPORV week to re qualify your Mission Hills week. The beauty of this plan is that you *may* (should) be eligible for existing owner pricing on EOY which is literally half of what the EY pricing is. So for a lot less money, you will have far more travel options at your disposal.

We own EOY at WPORV and I think it's going to be a reasonably easy trade for the next few years as flights to Kauai are scarce right now, the economy is rough, and there is a fair amount of unsold inventory. Starwood has also already sucked out a ton of potential prospects by selling them into WKORV and even that property is having occupancy issues this year. All of that makes me think developer sales are soft at WPORV there will continue to be SVN inventory there for the foreseeable future.

wporv

Hello;

I have been reading the responses and I am impressed with the quality and thoroughness of the answers.

I agree that WPORV will sweeten the offer. I would rescind and I believe you will have no trouble buying resale in the near future. The market is down and people may wish to recapture money spent.

Three items from Starwoods Annual Finacial report that clearly indicate their furture direction which you might find helpful.

Starwood is trying to divest itself of actual real estate holdings and wants to be a management company. Realestate is a risky business and ties up money that could be put to work elsewhere. I would not think they want to sit on SVO property like Kaui. They need to turn their dollars and I think they might be happy to recapture their dollars by letting you buy at the intial preconstruction price, versus a loss. If you demand that all they can say is NO. You can go back a week later and rebuy the same deal.

Starwood has expressed it wants to increase its customer rewards as a way to increase its hotelbusiness. More platinum and Gold cards.
Starwood noted the impact on their financials of the sell out Maui had.
I would suggest calling them and asking for a Platinum card for life card if you decide to stay at a minimum. I would suggest that you do it Sub rosa to avoid a precedent.

I had freinds we brought to Kierland who went to a presentation. He loves to haggle, I was blown away with his offers when he kept turning them down. I wish I hired him to negotiate for me . I think Tony Soprano had him locked up.

uscesq said:

Thanks everyone for your very valuable responses.

Capjak and Denise: I don't see how buying a resale of an OF at WKORV assures me of getting what I want -- for years and years?

How do most people who own at either WPORV or WKORV deal with the years they do not plan to go to that particular resort????

Click to expand...

What I meant was buy a resale like the one at Scottsdale or in CA mission hills and requalify it with the Every Other Year WPORV (Kauai) than you have the priority every other year.

In regards to not using the unit for my Maui and Disney for that matter I have rented them. I rented Maui in 2008 and 2009 for $3500 and rented my Disney for $3050 ($10 pt).

So it can be done. I will use the Maui unit in 2010 and am using my Disney in 2009.

Wow. If you are able to negotiate a PFL card with one purchase at WPORV, please PM me in private. That I would just loooooove to see that happen, especially since most invested $150,000-$200,000 to get that.

Just keep us informed (in private). Katherine

I consider myself a reasonably proficient negotiator and I think I squeezed every last incentive out of my only developer purchase but I agree that there is just no way there will give you PFL under any circumstances short of hitting 5*. They also aren't going to give out any kind of pricing break at all, with the exception of purchasing EOY at half price for existing owners.

The incentives traditionally come pouring out in terms of SPG points which can be negotiated to some respect.

Wporv

Yes asking for a Platinum is a little over the top. I did observe someone receive several perks that I was told were impossible to get and I am a 5 Star Platinum. He owned nothing at Starwood.

However the SPG points are negotiatble.

Keep in mind when you consider exchanging some of the Villas are new. The owners therefore will want to go to their own home Villas and after several trips or years they will try other Villas. This will then free up oppurtunities. We have not had a hard time getting into any of the Villas elsewhere.

WSJ is a little harder because less there are specialist rental companies in town, and several of the owners elected not to join SVN when Starwood/Westin took over. A WSJ owner can give more accurate info.

BUY PRUDENTLY WHAT YOU WOULD BE HAPPIEST WITH AND WHERE YOU WOULD WANT TO GO THE MOST.

ALSO AFTER YOU BUY ,STOP SHOPPING TO SEE IF YOU COULD HAVE GOTTEN A BETTER PRICE ON WHAT YOU JUST PURCHASED. IT WILL ONLY LEAVE YOU A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED AND TAKE SOME OF YOUR JOY AWAY.:whoopie:

What about Poipu?

Bill,

Sounds like you have your heart set on WPORV, but if you really want to go to Kauai most of the time, have you considered the Marriott Waiohai at Poipu. It's definitely not as nice as WPORV, but the property is right next to the ocean, and Poipu is a great beach. For $56K, you could probably buy, resale of course, 2 OV weeks.

I would second the suggestion to buy the Marriott instead if you are interested in trading a lot, esp if renting and/or negotiating direct exchanges doesn't appeal to you. As you know, the number of places you can trade to within SVN are very limited, with only a handful of resorts to choose from and future developments stalled. And you know about the issue with II.

Marriott owners get a similar priority window in II where they can see other Marriotts up for grabs prior to the general II membership. With so many more properties to choose from, especially within driving distance, I'd be much more inclined to go with Marriott were I to do it all over again.

My only gripe so far with Marriott is that most popular locations are highrises. I really, really don't like being in these giant towers in places like Maui or Aruba or FL. Poipu and NCV are nice exceptions, but overall I find Starwood's properties to be nicer (even if fewer). Plus the Starwood hotels (St. Regis, Le Meridien, W, ALoft) are generally waaaaay nicer than the JW Marriotts. Just my observations of course and I am sure this is personal preference.

I have an EOY Shadow Ridge resale so that I can have access to places where Starwood is not. It's perfect to satisfy our desire to go to places like Poipu or Aruba.

Katherine