Is this Ethical? (trading an exchanged week with another owner)

Would it be "ethical" to trade my MLE for a summer week at HHI and then do a direct trade with another owner of another timeshare company like Hilton or Starwood?

These owners do not have access to the quality of resorts that Marriott has in HHI.

What are your thoughts?


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I believe that this has been discussed before on this forum and I think that II will not allow it if I recall. Ethics aside you cannot do it. If you trade your week for a week at another resort and then want to trade again you will need to put the person with whom you trade name on the reservatioin and that cannot be done.

I just spoke with an II represenative and explained this potential. The lady made it very clear that anyone could stay in the unit that I traded for as long as I paid $39 to put their name on the reservation.

The II rep further said that if I stayed in the other guest's resort and they stayed in the unit I traded for would make no difference to II - even though we would technically be swapping or trading units.

I'm with Kathy on this. You can choose to believe what someone verbally told you over the phone or you can choose to believe II's written T&C, which include the following:

The Host Accommodations may be used only for personal and noncommercial purposes. Members are expressly prohibited from exchanging or renting the Host Accommodations.

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I do agree to an extent, but..

Is it not possible that you are reading too much into something - like the word "exhanging"? Exchanging in the timeshare industry could be looked upon as a term having a more focused meaning - such as trading with an organized company, like RCI or II, not trading with a comrad.

Example: Can Westin owners pick a week to exchange or do they have to let Starwood do that for them? Does that the mean that a Westin owner cannot book a week and then do a direct exchange with another owner. See where I am going with this?

Just a thought.

thinze3 said:

Example: Can Westin owners pick a week to exchange or do they have to let Starwood do that for them? Does that the mean that a Westin owner cannot book a week and then do a direct exchange with another owner. See where I am going with this?

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Yes, Westin owners can pick a specific week and then direct exchange it. The only instance where Starwood controls the owners' week is for making deposits into Interval.

Glorian

KathyPet said:

If you trade your week for a week at another resort and then want to trade again you will need to put the person with whom you trade name on the reservatioin and that cannot be done.

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Not true. That's the purpose of a Guest Certificate.

But, the rules state:

Members are expressly prohibited from selling or exchanging a Guest Certificate for cash, barter, or other consideration.

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Interesting that the II rep says otherwise. Now, if you happen to know the other owner, you can gift your exchanged week to them. And, they can gift you a week too (but not as consideration for your gift). Christmas in July?

You can only get a guest certificate for a week that you booked at your home resort. You cannot trade your week at your home resort for a week somewhere else and then rent or trade or get a guest certificate for the resort that you traded to per II and all knowing one Dave.

Pit said:

Interesting that the II rep says otherwise. Now, if you happen to know the other owner, you can gift your exchanged week to them. And, they can gift you a week too (but not as consideration for your gift). Christmas in July?

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I think that the last line about "barter, or other consideration" just about covers it.

Most likely I could call back and speak to another II rep and get a quite different response. On the other hand, as long as the "trade" were a direct swap with another individual, I doubt II could care less. Actually, they would probably like the additional $39. IMO

I'm sure you can get a guest certificate for someone else to use your week from an exchange. On II it lists a place to ask for a guest certificate for an exchanged week and I've done it for SFX before also for my son, not sure if I ever did one like that for RCI. You don't need a guest certificate for your own week, it doesn't go through an exchange company. You usually just need to let the resort know who is checking in.
LIz

Exchanging with Guest Certificate

We just bought a second MOW 2 days ago. We are still at the resort for our Platinum Plus week today. (By the way, Woodsy area is lovely)

Our sales person Ryan Garrett emphatically stated and explained the day before yesterday, that using the interval site, that you could rent your unit obtained by trade to someone if you purchased a guest certificate for $39. Period. He also showed us his individual account, where he owns 3 units and explained that he does this himself. I KNOW what II says however, I also know what people, including Marriott employees, do.

My niece is a Marriott Hotel General Manager (Town Place Suites) ,owns a Marriott TS in Kauai (which she of course got at 25% employee discount) and agrees. As long as you buy the $39 interval certificate, and disclose to your renter that this is a traded unit, I see no problem. I understand that others here will disagree.

This morning, I was on the phone trying to get a 4th July week for my Manor Club Sequel. This is the 4th year I have tried. No Go. I tried at 13 weeks out, and was also on the phone at 9 am. No go, waited for the 2nd half to be released this morning, and amazingly by 9:14 am when I got through the queue, they were all gone.

In my discussion later this morning with my VOA I explained that I thought it was funny with all the units there are, that half were gone so quickly on each of the days. She actually said that Marriott may release more (don't tell anyone) in the next week or 2 so keep trying back on subsequent Thursdays.

My point here is that if Marriott plays with the inventory (remember that this is the highest fee rental week for MMC in the system) then I don't feel too badly about renting my trade when I paid dearly for it. Especially when a Marriott salesman is demonstrating on the system how to do it.

I can also tell everyone that wanted to use a platinum week at MOW, that there are loads of people STAYING HERE on the $99 for 3 nights deal taking the timeshare tour. I have been chatting around the pool. To my way of thinking, those weeks should be available for OWNERS who put in requests.

I once rented a unit with a guest certificate, and had absolutely no problems at all.

I am not down on Marriott, and I also don't really believe this is unethical at all. I have paid a premium price for my week. I pay high maintenance fees. I pay a trade fee. I pay a guest certificate fee. If for some reason I cannot use my week, or find a week on redweek I like better than my own, and someone likes my week better than their own, why should Marriott or II be the only ones who can trade at will? This is economics and business at work.

Further, not all contract provisions in any contract (can't rent out) are enforced. Should anyone decide to enforce, well, I deal with that when it happens.

You can only get a guest certificate for a week that you booked at your home resort.

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No, I don't think that's true, Kathy.

If you reserve your own Marriott week, you can rent it to someone else or let a friend or relative use it and you don't need a guest certificate. All you need to do is call Marriott Owner Services and give them the name of the person that will be checking in. In fact, Marriott doesn't issue guest certificates, as far as I know.

If you exchange through for another week, II has a specific provision whereby, for a nominal fee, you can obtain a Guest Certificate so that you can give the use of that exchanged week to someone else.

But the II written provisions prohibit you from exchanging that week with someone for another week. Obviously, what you decide to do is up to you.

KathyPet said:

You can only get a guest certificate for a week that you booked at your home resort. You cannot trade your week at your home resort for a week somewhere else and then ... get a guest certificate for the resort that you traded to per II and all knowing one Dave.

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Absolutely not true. From the II T&Cs:

Confirmations are issued only in the name of the Member placing the exchange request, and Host Accommodations may be used only by the Member and accompanying guests, unless a Guest Certificate is obtained from II.

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I should have remembered

Two years ago we did trade one of our HH's for Ocean Watch. We then added our daughter's name to the reservation and she actually used the week. her last name is the same as ours so she had no problem checking it. See what happens when you get to over 60.

Pit said:

But, the rules state:

Members are expressly prohibited from selling or exchanging a Guest Certificate for cash, barter, or other consideration.

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Trading timeshare weeks is barter. So, officially, it's "expressly prohibited." II's position is that it's no different paying cash or paying with something else of value (barter). So it would be a violation of II rules, regardless of what an II agent said.

Whether it's actually "unethical" is open for debate. I don't see how violating this rule is morally wrong. Nobody is being hurt.

However, because it's a violation of II rules, even if guest certificates are obtained, there's a risk in such a barter arrangement.

Personally, I wouldn't do it.

Obviously, there are two different approaches to whether an owner can exchange through II for a week and then either rent that exchanged week or exchange it with a third party for another week.

There are numerous reports of people doing that with no repercussions. However, there have also been reports here at TUG (for both II and RCI) of people having their exchange company accounts suspended and losing deposited weeks for trying to or actually renting weeks in violation of the written rules.

I think it's noteworthy that there is nothing in print anywhere from II saying that it's okay to ignore II's rules.
The risk of getting caught and having something bad happen is small. However, for me, I'm not willing to risk renting (or trading) an exchanged week to a third person, risk that that person mentions at check-in or in a call to II to confirm the week that he/she was lucky to get this rental and have bad things happen. The worst possible scenario is where that renter spends a fortune on plane tickets to get to (for example) Hawaii, goes to check in and is denied occupancy. My legal obligation at that point would be huge, since I was the one that broke the rules. Is that possible? Yes. We have proof that both RCI and II monitor to some extent various rental boards, including TUG's.

Do you doubt that the exchange companies clamp down? There are a number of threads on this issue, but since we are discussing II, I'll offer this thread as evidence that the possibility of adverse action being taken by II is very real. Also, here's another example of a statement from II, posted by a long-time TUGger regarding a discussion with an II supervisor, not a frontline rep that might well be undertrained.

Bottom line? Do what feels right to you, but if you choose to ignore the written rules, you have some risk.

Werner Weiss said:

Whether it's actually "unethical" is open for debate. I don't see how violating this rule is morally wrong. Nobody is being hurt.

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It's wrong because it's against II's rules, the rules you agree to when you become a member of II. Just because you pay MF, exhange fees and lots of $$ for your unit doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with an II exchange. It's very different than your home resort, you've exchanged into a week with II and are now controlled by their terms & conditions.

I don't agree that "nobody is being hurt". If II members (Marriott salesmen, Marriott employees, whoever) are exchanging into inventory with the intent to rent the weeks, then it makes it more difficult for the rest of the II membership to get those trades we want. So there is less prime inventory available for the rest of us.

We are venturing ever so slightly away from my original question. This is NOT a rental question.

Let's say you wanted to stay at the Hilton GVC in Honolulu and knew of an owner there who wanted to go to Marriott's Barony Beach on HHI. If you had the ability to get him that Barony Beach through an II exchange, would it be ethical to make that exchange through II and then let the Hilton owner use it? You in turn would use his Hilton in Honolulu.


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I'm not so sure ethics enters into it as much as II's rules. Because of the way II's rules (as quoted above) are written and because (see my links above) there is a very real risk of II adverse action, you'll have to decide if the risk of doing what you suggest, which violates II's rules (it's clearly an exchange), is worthwhile.

As for ethics, if you are willing to take the risk, go ahead if you're comfortable with it. However, I agree with LAX Mom's response to the ethical issue.

thinze3 said:

We are venturing ever so slightly away from my original question. This is NOT a rental question.

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I'm afraid you're not getting the answer you had hoped for.

Based on II's terms and conditions, it is "a rental question." The only difference is that the rental is being paid for through barter, not with cash. Either way, it's in violation of II's rules. And there could be nasty consequences if the violation is identified.

I can see both sides of the ethics question, especially as you're describing the scenario — thus my comment that it's "open for debate." But ultimately it's not about ethics or morality.

Shauna said:

In my discussion later this morning with my VOA I explained that I thought it was funny with all the units there are, that half were gone so quickly on each of the days. She actually said that Marriott may release more (don't tell anyone) in the next week or 2 so keep trying back on subsequent Thursdays.

My point here is that if Marriott plays with the inventory (remember that this is the highest fee rental week for MMC in the system) then I don't feel too badly about renting my trade when I paid dearly for it. Especially when a Marriott salesman is demonstrating on the system how to do it.

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Yes, this happens as we experienced this with our timeshare week too which was very difficult to get reservations for. Marriott doesn't play with the inventory but these weeks were canceled most likely by people who do multiple reservations all at once and then don't need or want them and throw them back in the inventory.

thinze3 said:

We are venturing ever so slightly away from my original question. This is NOT a rental question.

Let's say you wanted to stay at the Hilton GVC in Honolulu and knew of an owner there who wanted to go to Marriott's Barony Beach on HHI. If you had the ability to get him that Barony Beach through an II exchange, would it be ethical to make that exchange through II and then let the Hilton owner use it? You in turn would use his Hilton in Honolulu.


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We all know that it is OK to give your exchange to someone else. (mostly we are talking about a friend or family) And if you had a friend or family which trades with a different exchange company than you, IMHO, trading your exchanges wouldn't be a problem.

The problem with Thinze what is suggesting, is you have to find that person who wants to trade their exchanges. RCI & II both look for and will crack down on people renting or bartering an exchanged week.

Werner Weiss said:

I'm afraid you're not getting the answer you had hoped for....

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Not hoping for any answer, just merely trying to think outside the box this morning.

Bill4728 said:

We all know that it is OK to give your exchange to someone else. (mostly we are talking about a friend or family) And if you had a friend or family which trades with a different exchange company than you, IMHO, trading your exchanges wouldn't be a problem....

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You are the first to enter the grey area about which I was trying to get feedback. At what point do you cross the line? When the other person is a relative, a friend, an online friend, a Tugger, etc...

I have let other friends, family members, coworkers use exchange weeks many, many times. I have even given a deposit to a friend and let him work out his exchange with the II rep. I really do not think II is going to find fault with this.

They do not, however, want you to rent/barter an exchange week for a profit. You will not be able to advertise an exchange week for rent/trade on the internet but if you have a friend who is a Hilton owner and you two agree to a swap, you should be fine.

Deb

Dave M said:

I'm with Kathy on this. You can choose to believe what someone verbally told you over the phone or you can choose to believe II's written T&C, which include the following:

The Host Accommodations may be used only for personal and noncommercial purposes. Members are expressly prohibited from exchanging or renting the Host Accommodations.

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I interperet the term exchanging rather loosly. I would expect that you couldn't exchange that week through another exchange company. To exchange it with a friend would not be a problem. You obviously can't rent the week out. Just my opinion though.