Anyone have recommendations on replacing furnace and central air conditioners?

The energy star tax credit link

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#c3

hvacrsteve said:

Carrier and Trane have some excellent product, many will meet the threshold for the energy credit, stay away from the coils not made by Carrier or Trane!
They are not true ratings and they are not actually tested together!
I see more people falling for that, it is a loophole in the system and in my opinion it is a scam!
I have replaced many of those coils and then the people reduce their utility bills with a product that is actually tested.
I have a customer now that would not settle for anything but his Amana, he wishes he had of listened to me now, it is a Goodman unit.
If you want a Goodman, buy an Amana.
I need actaul model numbers to give you actual input.
I like the variable speed furnaces, I am not a Carrier infinity fan, even though we sell a few, the Honeywell IAQ visionpro blows it away.
I have 4 trane air handlers, 2 trane hp's , 1 trane a/c only and one Heil unit in my house. The Heil is made by Carrier, UTX, United Technologies

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I cannot tell you how confused I am now. We were hoping to make a decision soon and didn't want to base it just on the tax credit but our salesman told us the combination of the Trane unit/coil didn't qualify. I've spent some time in the AHRI website and it made me even more confused.

We're leaving town for a week but I can see now that I need more time to research and think about this major purchase. I'll get actual model numbers (I thought I had that but obviously my salesman didn't give me all the info). He did explain about the Goodman/Amana buyout and told us Goodman didn't have a good reputation on their low-end products. However he did also tell us that Trane had a bad reputation on their coils lately.

Thanks again so much for your help. Perhaps after I return I can post again with more detailed info and get your advice.

I really appreciate the information you've posted.

A 95% furnace qualifies!

Either a furnace rated at 95% eff. qualifies or a a split can qualify, the max is $1500.00, so it doesn't matter if the cooling and heating qualifies, only one of them needs to qualify!
You only need the certificate of the one that qualifies.
If you give me the sizes you need, furnace output and a/c tonnage, I will print you a list of products that will qualify you for the rebate.
The cooling product is hard to qualify, the heating side is not that difficult.
I am not sure what these lookin at or not looking at.
I can give you names and customers where Amana has had issues, also look at the overall weight of the unit, less weight equals less raw material.
All maufactures have issues, its what they do when they have issues that count!

Back from cool San Francisco into the Texas heat!

We need to get moving on getting the AC replaced. Plus rebates offers are ending soon.

hvacrsteve,

Here are bids and some info about our home.

We live in the Dallas area, have a 1700 SF single story house built in 2000, hot here much of the year so the cooling capacity is our more important concern. Our current builder grade York has never been able to handle the summer afternoon heat.

1. $9930
Trane 4 ton XL16i #4TTX6048B1000A
Trane High Efficiency Coil #4TXFH063AS3HHA
Trane XV80 Variable Speed 2 stage Gas Furnace #TUD080R9V4K

This does not qualify for the tax credit but would if we switched to an ADP or Aspen coil.

2. $9370
Carrier 4 ton Infinity 17 #24ANA748A003
Carrier High Efficiency Coil #CNPHP4821ATA
Carrier Infinity Variable Speed 2 stage Gas Furnace #58CVA090116

This also does not qualify for the tax credit but not sure why.

3. $10410
Carrier 4 ton Infinity 21 #24ANA148A003
Carrier High Efficiency Coil #CNPHP4821ATA
Carrier Infinity Variable Speed 2 stage Gas Furnace #58CVA090116

Now I'm finding this ALSO does not qualify for the tax credit as configured.

I'm so confused about the tax credit!!!

All of these would include a Honeywell Media Air Cleaner and 2 filters.

We installed a Trane system in a previous home and were very happy with it.
Have never had a Carrier system but reviews seem good.

Any advice you can give would be very appreciated!

How hard is it to replace the furnace to a 95% afue product?
This would give you the tax credit.
I will up 4 ton units and see what I can find,
It is very hard to meet it with a 4 ton unit.

Steve

Thanks Steve.

I spoke to our salesman this afternoon to get new quotes using 3rd party coils (ADP or Aspen) which should qualify for the tax credit. I don't know how the furnace affects the outcome but I do know that Carrier offers one step up from what we were quoted - the Infinity 80 (80% AFUE) to the Infinity 96 (92.7% to 96.6% AFUE).

I'm waiting to get his e-mail with the new quotes.

Success

Here is one match that makes it, there are several others as well.

Steve

View attachment Carrier ari13 eer 16 seer.pdf

I would stay away from the other mix matched coils, you will not
get the ratings that they say.

The Carrier ones have been tested.
The others have not!

If the guy can't read or check the ARI, find someone that knows how to.
That is one test of their overall knowledge level.
This guy doesn't seem too smart if he can't find you a factory matchup.
Don't settle for less!

hvacrsteve said:

Here is one match that makes it, there are several others as well.

Steve

View attachment 673

I would stay away from the other mix matched coils, you will not
get the ratings that they say.

The Carrier ones have been tested.
The others have not!

If the guy can't read or check the ARI, find someone that knows how to.
That is one test of their overall knowledge level.
This guy doesn't seem too smart if he can't find you a factory matchup.
Don't settle for less!

Click to expand...

I'm still waiting for the salesman to get back to us. He does use the AHRI site (and showed us how to use it) but I'm not sure if he's found a match yet.

I can't open the pdf you attached, it just kicks me out of TUG every time I click on it.

Thanks again!

Interesting topic and I like other posters am anticipating old equipment (in my case a 22 year old Trane 90% efficient gas furnace and Carrier air conditioning unit) may soon head south.

Both have been pretty reliable over the years but this past winter a control module in the furnace failed and just recently the air conditioning compressor needed charging. While both repairs were relatively minor, it got us to thinking about what we would replace them with. When I started looking into it I was not interested in a tax rebate coloring my decision so that was not considered.

My decision came down to remaining with Trane heat and Carrier ac. After reading hvacrsteve comments I think I will switch to Heil ac. I have no experience with the Honeywell VisionPro IAQ but will give it a try also. I have not had much luck with programmable thermostats in the past so hopefully this one will work for us.

One thing I did find out was that the more qualified the installers the less problems a homeowner encountered in the future. So for me that meant a contractor that uses union workers or has long time staff that have been properly trained (which usually translates into more $$$).

hvacrsteve - thanks for the useful information.

I e-mailed it to you

abbekit said:

I'm still waiting for the salesman to get back to us. He does use the AHRI site (and showed us how to use it) but I'm not sure if he's found a match yet.

I can't open the pdf you attached, it just kicks me out of TUG every time I click on it.

Thanks again!

Click to expand...

I sent you the one match that I printed. There are others in carrier and I am pretty sure there are a few with Trane.
You will be happy with either.

EZ-ED said:

Interesting topic and I like other posters am anticipating old equipment (in my case a 22 year old Trane 90% efficient gas furnace and Carrier air conditioning unit) may soon head south.

Both have been pretty reliable over the years but this past winter a control module in the furnace failed and just recently the air conditioning compressor needed charging. While both repairs were relatively minor, it got us to thinking about what we would replace them with. When I started looking into it I was not interested in a tax rebate coloring my decision so that was not considered.

My decision came down to remaining with Trane heat and Carrier ac. After reading hvacrsteve comments I think I will switch to Heil ac. I have no experience with the Honeywell VisionPro IAQ but will give it a try also. I have not had much luck with programmable thermostats in the past so hopefully this one will work for us.

One thing I did find out was that the more qualified the installers the less problems a homeowner encountered in the future. So for me that meant a contractor that uses union workers or has long time staff that have been properly trained (which usually translates into more $$$).

hvacrsteve - thanks for the useful information.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I have been doing this for 30 plus years, teaching it for 20 plus years or so, I have also gotten my Master Electrical licenses and Master Plumbing License along the way, and thats in 3 states which we work in.
I love what I do and I can't stand it when I see peole being pushed and sold on a way or product thats not going to be beneficial to them.
I have been known to install jobs for customers that were non believers for free if it didn't perform to their satisfaction, I actually got paid on those the quickest.
There is an enormous amount of knowledge required just to purchase the correct system for your home or business, I hope I have enlightened the ones the are interested.
I primarilry do commercial but I have done residential most of my career as well.
Every building owner has a home somewhere.
By the way, you are right about whom installs your equipment, it is 80% of the success of the system!
As far as union workers versus non union, I found the union limiting when I was in it and decided the best for me was to be my own boss.
They had a hard time letting me do three trades and gas fitting.
I have known excellent tradesmen on both sides, it just depends on their leader and his dedication to his or her trade.
My motto is I will not hire anyone I would not give the keys to my home and tell them to do a repair or check up in my home without concern, that is a high bar and I have sacraficed growth for quality.
I can say I sleep very well at night knowing I treated my co workers and my customers the way i would like to be treated and I have propered because of it.
Steve

I have installed several Goodman unit and they are as dependable if not more so than carrier, trane etc.. goodman has a 10yr warranty you can get for like 110 buck. it comes with a 5 yr right out of the box. its like a chev and ford..
one is better than the other depending on which brand you like.


carrier , trane, rudd all are good. I like goodman as well.

PS most copper line sets are good for like 400 psi or better.. a RU410 system is not running that much pressure so a new line set is suspect. the size may be not right for newer unit so that would need to be upgraded but not on pressure issues.

carl2591 said:

I have installed several Goodman unit and they are as dependable if not more so than carrier, trane etc.. goodman has a 10yr warranty you can get for like 110 buck. it comes with a 5 yr right out of the box. its like a chev and ford..
one is better than the other depending on which brand you like.


carrier , trane, rudd all are good. I like goodman as well.

PS most copper line sets are good for like 400 psi or better.. a RU410 system is not running that much pressure so a new line set is suspect. the size may be not right for newer unit so that would need to be upgraded but not on pressure issues.

Click to expand...

This is right out of the Lennox install manual, the other companies have similiar verbage!
If you don't have it installed correctly and professionally you could void your warranty!
An existing line set to be re used with R-410 must be flushed!

IMPORTANT
If this unit is being matched with an approved line
set or indoor coil that was previously charged with
R22 refrigerant, or if it is being matched with a coil
that was manufactured before January of 1999, the
coil and line set must be flushed prior to installation.
Take care to empty all existing traps. Polyol ester
(POE) oils are used in Lennox units charged with
R410A refrigerant. Residual mineral oil can act as an
insulator, preventing proper heat transfer. It can
also clog the thermal expansion valve, reducing
system performance and capacity.
Failure to properly flush the system per the instructions
below will void the warranty.


As for Goodman and Amana equipment, they work and they are cheap. If money is the main issue, they are an OK choice.
They weigh far less than the major guys because everything in them is thinner and lighter for the most part.( cost less to make)
Personally I wouldn't put one in my house and therefore I don't recommend them for others.

Had builder grade Goodman 10 SEER central a/c units in my old place...worked fine, but noisy.

New place has four Trane units of between 14 and 19 SEER (yes, was expensive..ouch)... but a) incredibly quiet, and b) very efficient.

Bigger house, went from 6 tonnes of a/c to 13 tonnes... and power usage in the new place is only 55% higher (house is over twice the size).

Not sure if payback on the Trane units will make sense, but love how quiet they run, and nice getting smaller electric bills than I thought.

TomCayman said:

Had builder grade Goodman 10 SEER central a/c units in my old place...worked fine, but noisy.

New place has four Trane units of between 14 and 19 SEER (yes, was expensive..ouch)... but a) incredibly quiet, and b) very efficient.

Bigger house, went from 6 tonnes of a/c to 13 tonnes... and power usage in the new place is only 55% higher (house is over twice the size).

Not sure if payback on the Trane units will make sense, but love how quiet they run, and nice getting smaller electric bills than I thought.

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That is one of the major differences, our units we cannot hear run, we just got back from a weekend visit, my wife commented about the noise levels of the HVAC and then said as usual ( theres no place like HOME!)

Having owned several houses in which I've replaced HACV systems, the only thing that I would add is this:
I would not settle for one or two estimates. If possible, I like to have at least four, using contractors with brands I prefer (although I recently I've been using the same one).

Four may be more than necessary, but in this area, quotes vary widely. I would not necessarily go with the lowest. I look for a contractor that offers both a reasonalble price and certain intangible qualities -- consistency with advice given, openess or a willingness to discuss options, and a professional or well-run operaration (i.e. a class-act).

Talent312 said:

Having owned several houses in which I've replaced HACV systems, the only thing that I would add is this:
I would not settle for one or two estimates. If possible, I like to have at least four, using contractors with brands I prefer (although I recently I've been using the same one).

Four may be more than necessary, but in this area, quotes vary widely. I would not necessarily go with the lowest. I look for a contractor that offers both a reasonalble price and certain intangible qualities -- consistency with advice given, openess or a willingness to discuss options, and a professional or well-run operaration (i.e. a class-act).

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Sometimes it takes four just to get one good one!
Your right on with this, when you find a great one, keep him or her, because they are hard to find. I have many customers that just call and give me the job, thye don't even ask the price.
They know I am fair and do what I say I will do!
Happy shopping!

Bringing this back to the top to ask about American Standard, which is what my fuel company wants to put in. We haven't decided which way to go yet...one company wants to do Carrier (much more expensive), one Trane, one Rheem, and now this American Standard! Arghh!! (We are talking about a 3 ton a/c unit.)

Bringing this back to the top to ask about American Standard, which is what my fuel company wants to put in. We haven't decided which way to go yet...one company wants to do Carrier (much more expensive), one Trane, one Rheem, and now this American Standard! Arghh!! (We are talking about a 3 ton a/c unit.)

American standard, actually owns Trane , (they share the same factory and assembly line)which is owned by Ingersol Rand. Rheem and ruud are the same company,
Carrier,Heil, Bryant, Day & night, Payne and a few others are all owned by UTX, United Technologies. are you confused more, those companies for the most part have centralized production, share most common parts with each others units.
Trane is the only one that makes its own compressors, everyone else buys them from copeland, Bristol or Tecumseh. there are more but those are the primary ones.

Steve...I sent you some stuff...check your PMs. And thanks!!

Sharon

Has anyone heard of Armstrong? I believe they are owned by Lenox.

capjak said:

Has anyone heard of Armstrong? I believe they are owned by Lenox.

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Yes they are a division of Heatcraft, which is owned I bleive by lennox, I am not sure which plant they are produced in. If your interested I can find out more. It is not a brand I have ever sold or installed.