Buy vs Rent in the Westin System?

We just came back from a great vacation in Maui. While we were there, we caught the timeshare bug and put down a bid for a 1 bedroom ocean view Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas South. The bid is $14k with maintenance fee of $1620 with 148,1000 Star Option Points. It is being done through the Maui Timeshare Resales people. We have till June 5 to decide.

We thought it was a good deal, until we came home to read about rental options on TUG and Redweek. Plus, we found out that Westin and II do not seem to have as many overseas (e.g. Asia, Europe) resorts to exchange for. So now we are thinking perhaps we should not buy. We can just rent, and save the exchange hassel (it seems to be a daunting task to exchange, trade, etc) and keep the annual maintenance fee toward paying for rental.

But, then we thought there must be some more advantage since so many of you have bought into the timeshare system. Perhaps we are missing something? Perhaps the getaways from II is worth it? Perhaps being in the Westin system has some other advantage that we just don't know about? Perhaps owning a premier Maui timeshare has some "perks" that we haven't discovered?

Can you help us out as we need to make a decision in a couple of days. Thanks!

[Welcome to TUG - Duplicate posts are not permitted on TUG, so I moved the responses you got in the other forums, to this thread. DeniseM Moderator]

Well if you just want getaways with II you can go with a much cheaper resort, there are places that cost about $500 with $300 in MF.

You really need to decide what is best for you. IMO WKORV is a good place to buy IF you want to go there every year, it is too expensive to make it worthwhile if you want to go most of the other starwood resorts or if you want to deposit with II.

I don't think we wil make it to Maui every year but we like the Westin location and quality. The thinking is perhaps other family members of ours who live in Asia may be able to enjoy the Maui location in the years we cannot make it. Also the 14K is almost 1/3 of the Developer price so we thought it may be a good deal. If we go by financial thinking (vs above), could you recommend another Starwood option? Many thanks. ps we are Boston based.

the westin resort is part of the starwood system. it is a great program. people who own in hawaii who are on this board normally don't trade their units, if they can't use it they rent it.

i did meet a few hawaii owners who did trade to the atlantis in the bahamas. some trade some don't.

starwood members do not get extra weeks from II.

go on the starwood site and read up on owning. i own 9 weeks with starwood and love it.

140K staroption is enough for you to do internal reservations at all the starwood resorts. So the westin resorts on the east coast may work well for you. So if you or your family can use the options every year, this is a good deal. BUT trading your TS in II is likely not that good of deal because your TS is one of the very best TS and therefore almost every trade will be a trade down for you.

Some westin owners, rent their TS and then use the money to rent a TS in the area which they want to trade. This may work for you.

Good Luck and welcome to TUG

For lots of info. about how Starwood works, see the FAQ, and the other articles in Owner Resources, at the top of the forum.

pointsjunkie said:

starwood members do not get extra weeks from II.

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Starwood owners do not get Accommodation Certificates, which are like bonus weeks, but Getaways are II rental weeks and all II members can rent them.

Are you buying a one bedroom or a two bedroom?

One bedroom units at WKORV have only 81,000 StarOptions; two bedrooms units have 148,100.

The maintenance fee amount you post is not the current MF of a two bedroom at WKORV; it may be that of a one bedroom deluxe including SVN fees.

Generally speaking, people buy Hawaii timeshares to use them, not to trade them. The higher price and higher MF's make them inefficient traders.

My $0.02 worth to a fellow Yankee...

fwest said:

Buy vs Rent in the Westin System?

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We just came back from a great vacation in Maui. While we were there, we caught the timeshare bug and put down a bid for a 1 bedroom ocean view Westin Ka'anapali Ocean Resort Villas South. The bid is $14k with maintenance fee of $1620 with 148,1000 Star Option Points. It is being done through the Maui Timeshare Resales people. We have till June 5 to decide.

We thought it was a good deal, until we came home to read about rental options on TUG and Redweek. Plus, we found out that Westin and II do not seem to have as many overseas (e.g. Asia, Europe) resorts to exchange for. So now we are thinking perhaps we should not buy. We can just rent, and save the exchange hassel (it seems to be a daunting task to exchange, trade, etc) and keep the annual maintenance fee toward paying for rental.


Can you help us out as we need to make a decision in a couple of days. Thanks!

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Let me first openly acknowledge that I know absolutely nothing about either Westin or Starwood and /or Star Option points. That much clearly stated, however, I still offer the following without hesitation:

1. $14K in the bank gaining even a low interest rate will certainly get you a whole bunch of weekly rentals over the years.

2. $1,620 per year is a very hefty annual maintenance fee which will likely increase at an average rate of at least 5% per year. That amount of money could instead be allocated each year toward a vacation rental ---anyplace you want to go --- without being locked in to any specific location or dates.

3. Every dime of your travel costs (airfare, rental cars, food & dining, etc.) will still be incurred whether you are a timeshare owner or not, so don't get stars in your eyes about timeshare ownership. A nice vacation can cloud your vision about the long term obligations and restrictions. Buying is easy; selling is not...

In short summary, from my personal point of view I'd recommend reconsidering this purchase and its' attached obligations. If you are a lottery winner or are otherwise wealthy and consider the numbers in this matter to be just "pocket change", you can dismiss my viewpoint. Personally, I just don't see these figures as being a particularly wise or prudent "investment". But as they say, your mileage may vary...

My apology. Did not know the posting rules...I guess I should have read them before. Sorry again.

Here's the rub with renting, it's much cheaper and easier to do if you are very flexible and don't want to travel in peak times.

If you have very specific requirements or mostly like to travel during the summer, February/March, and holidays, it can be very difficult and expensive. Not impossible, but you have to work at getting a place at a reasonable price.

If you buy and plan ahead in advance, you are pretty much guaranteed availability when to go at the Maui resort that you like.

Otherwise, you have to hunt and peck, negotiate, and have the other hassles involved in renting in order not to get scammed.

I am an owner, and I don't think renting is that hard. Expensive, yes, but it is really easy to find rentals in this economy. TUG and Redweek.com have tons of rentals available, and since most owners own floating weeks, they can get just about any week you want.

as others have said...

There is something misaligned between the SOs and the MFs (and the cost) - check-out the recent eBay sales for WKORVs - regardless, you maybe paying too much. If you do not intend to use WKORV every year - then consider buying 81K SOs at WKV or SVV (resale) and use the SVN exchange system. If you want more locations - by Marriott (resale).

Ok, I think I made a mistake. We went from talking a 2-bedroom to 1-bedroom. The Developer Cost for the 1-bedroom is $42,500. The offer we made (through a resale broker) is $14K. The SO is 81K and the MF is $1620. So the resale price is about 1/3 of the developer's price. So we are thinking the initial investment seems to be reasonable. It is the ongoing MF that we have to think through, I guess. BTW, what is WKV and SVV? Sorry to ask so many questions...we are learning as we go...

theo said:

Let me first openly acknowledge that I know absolutely nothing about either Westin or Starwood and /or Star Option points. That much clearly stated, however, I still offer the following without hesitation:

1. $14K in the bank gaining even a low interest rate will certainly get you a whole bunch of weekly rentals over the years.

2. $1,620 per year is a very hefty annual maintenance fee which will likely increase at an average rate of at least 5% per year. That amount of money could instead be allocated each year toward a vacation rental ---anyplace you want to go --- without being locked in to any specific location or dates.

3. Every dime of your travel costs (airfare, rental cars, food & dining, etc.) will still be incurred whether you are a timeshare owner or not, so don't get stars in your eyes about timeshare ownership. A nice vacation can cloud your vision about the long term obligations and restrictions. Buying is easy; selling is not...

In short summary, from my personal point of view I'd recommend reconsidering this purchase and its' attached obligations. If you are a lottery winner or are otherwise wealthy and consider the numbers in this matter to be just "pocket change", you can dismiss my viewpoint. Personally, I just don't see these figures as being a particularly wise or prudent "investment". But as they say, your mileage may vary...

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Good points Theo.

.

fwest said:

Ok, I think I made a mistake. We went from talking a 2-bedroom to 1-bedroom. The Developer Cost for the 1-bedroom is $42,500. The offer we made (through a resale broker) is $14K. The SO is 81K and the MF is $1620. So the resale price is about 1/3 of the developer's price. So we are thinking the initial investment seems to be reasonable. It is the ongoing MF that we have to think through, I guess. BTW, what is WKV and SVV? Sorry to ask so many questions...we are learning as we go...

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WKV = Westin Kierland Villas (Scottsdale, AZ)
SVV = Sheraton Vistana Villages (Orlando, FL)

Don't call the $14K an " investment" -- except in lifestyle -- as you will likely never recoup much of that money.

Theo's comments above on the opportunity cost of capital on your $14,000 and the annual MF of $1,600+ are well taken. Think of the proposed purchase as a $3,000 annual ongoing expense (using a 10% capital cost including depreciation + the annual MF).

If the timeshare is something you would not necessarily be able to use every year, is it an expense you wish to incur every year? If not, renting may be a better option for you.

Theo, your explanation makes a lot of financial sense. So if we follow through with that line of thinking, we should not buy. But given the 14K bid is 2/3below the Developer's price, could we assume that this is a good deal, because of the economy? And that once the economy picks up, a prime location like this may increase in value so we should buy. You can see that my mind is following you but my heart is not quite there yet....

In general, timeshares do not increase in value. I would not expect that. Buying a timeshare is an investment in great vacations - it is not a money-making financial investment.

Forget about the Developer cost - it should have no place in your decision.

It is what you pay for it - Theo's argument is very true if it is taken from a pure investment standpoint - but this is also about investing in vacation. Some of our TSs have a negative investment (WKORV, WPORV) - some are actually positive investments (WKV, WSJ) - or could be if we wanted them to be.

As an example - for WKORV - we own an OF Deluxe where the MFs are high and the purchase cost (now) is a lot less than it was when we bought (although we saved ~$20K if we bought from SVO). SVO now sells these for over $100K, but can now be bought (with some effort and patience) in the mid-30s to low 40s. We rent out the studio to offset out MFs - and there is another important aspect... If we were not to have spent the money on the OFD WKORV and invested it (in Real Estate or the Stock Market) - that same money would likely be a lot less. So be careful in the financial analysis - a 5-10% rate of return is something that is only seen in low rated or junk bonds nowadays.

I calculated last year that it cost us about $2800 ($400/day) for our OFD WKORV week (with a 5% annual interest loss) - it would be challenging to find this for less. Is it possible? - sure - but now I am planning my vacations a year in advance - where before - it was more like weeks in advance and I was spending that money (or more) on lessor vacations.

For WKV - we have been renting for $1000 over MFs - essentially making $500 per unit per year after taking into account 5% loss per year on our purchase cost.

I will leave WSJ and WPORV for another time - as they are a bit different in terms of investing (financial and vacation).

Yes - the stock market is coming back (but could collapse tomorrow) and the Real estate will also - but I'd go back to thinking about this in terms of investing in vacations and not as a financial investment - so it is right that this should be disposible income, and one can afford to pay for it with cash. In the meantime - we have had some wicked vacation and many more to come - something we did not use to do.

Regardless - it is fuzzy math. YMMV

Added:
I think that we could get back what we paid for our WSJ and WKV units, but not WKORV (at least soon) or WPROV (ever).
They only lose their original value if you plan to ever sell them.
If you were to get the 1Bd WKORV for say $11k - it is likely that it will be worth that for quite sometime, but watch out for those MFs.

This is very interesting and insigtful. So basically what you all are suggesting is that we have to shift our frame of thinking, from financial investment to happiness investment. This was mentioned by one of the TS sales people and we kinda laughted it off but it really is a true statement, in thinking through now. Also, the point about really schedule vacation into your life is another good point as both my husband and I have been very busy taking care of others and forgetting our own needs to do R&R. Perhaps this purchase will force us to change our priority?

fwest said:

This is very interesting and insigtful. So basically what you all are suggesting is that we have to shift our frame of thinking, from financial investment to happiness investment. This was mentioned by one of the TS sales people and we kinda laughted it off but it really is a true statement, in thinking through now. Also, the point about really schedule vacation into your life is another good point as both my husband and I have been very busy taking care of others and forgetting our own needs to do R&R. Perhaps this purchase will force us to change our priority?

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This is one of the few truths that comes from a TS salesperson (and perhaps the only)...

Yes - it will. At least it has for us - we now (and have) go on planned vacations. This year - WSJ (2 weeks) , Westin Napa (on StarPoints), London-Amsterdam-Paris (on StarPoints) - WPORV (2 weeks using both sides of the Lockoff) - WKORV (1 week in OceanFront and 1 week in a 1Bd from an SVN exchange of WKV).

And when we are not on vacation - we are planning for the next one. This coming from a person who used to lose vacation-time, and when I went it was always last minute and unplanned (Robin changed this for me, and TUG helped me immensely to not only save money, but to also spend it).

If you can't plan ahead (or can't make it a priority) - TSing may not be for you.

You can't take it with you... and don't look back thinking of what might have been...

theo said:

Let me first openly acknowledge that I know absolutely nothing about either Westin or Starwood and /or Star Option points. That much clearly stated, however, I still offer the following without hesitation:

1. $14K in the bank gaining even a low interest rate will certainly get you a whole bunch of weekly rentals over the years.

2. $1,620 per year is a very hefty annual maintenance fee which will likely increase at an average rate of at least 5% per year. That amount of money could instead be allocated each year toward a vacation rental ---anyplace you want to go --- without being locked in to any specific location or dates.

3. Every dime of your travel costs (airfare, rental cars, food & dining, etc.) will still be incurred whether you are a timeshare owner or not, so don't get stars in your eyes about timeshare ownership. A nice vacation can cloud your vision about the long term obligations and restrictions. Buying is easy; selling is not...

In short summary, from my personal point of view I'd recommend reconsidering this purchase and its' attached obligations. If you are a lottery winner or are otherwise wealthy and consider the numbers in this matter to be just "pocket change", you can dismiss my viewpoint. Personally, I just don't see these figures as being a particularly wise or prudent "investment". But as they say, your mileage may vary...

Click to expand...

The way you write I am suprised you are on a timeshare board, I am not saying this purchase makes sense or not. But because I have a timeshare it has allowed me to go away a few times a year in a luxury resort for the price of a 3 star hotel. You are correct in saying a person should not go on a vacation get excited and then put bids in timeshares.

Davidandrobin: How much time do you have to devote to renting out your units? I dread negotiating and being nickled and dimed -- is that usually what happens? How do you know the interested renters are legitimate?

I have a dilemna this year where we need more Starwood points for a 2010 ffmile trip yet are holding a Champion Tennis match week/unit at Rancho Mirage that we won't be using and don't know if I want to try to rent it to offset our humungous timeshare HOA fees or turn it in -- in October for SPG points. Your input would be very valuable to me

Cathyb said:

Davidandrobin: How much time do you have to devote to renting out your units? I dread negotiating and being nickled and dimed -- is that usually what happens? How do you know the interested renters are legitimate?

I have a dilemna this year where we need more Starwood points for a 2010 ffmile trip yet are holding a Champion Tennis match week/unit at Rancho Mirage that we won't be using and don't know if I want to try to rent it to offset our humungous timeshare HOA fees or turn it in -- in October for SPG points. Your input would be very valuable to me

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I really have not had many issues - but I tend to rent at very fair prices (IMO) and I think that helps - and use PayPal only - which I think helps keep the scammers away.

No one has nickled or dimed me (yet) - I did have one person send me money via PayPal before anything was agreed upon - which was strange, and another renter not show-up (which scared me - but they ended up having a family emergency).

Some people ask for a lower price - but that is to be expected. I do probably spend too much time responding to people who inquire and never respond back with a 'Thanks, but No Thanks' This perturbs me because I would at least let a person know that I wasn't going to follow through (but I am old-school...).

The other thing is that the TSs we have are pretty desirable - and I think that helps. I always reserve WKV during Spring Training - and our WKORV is Ocean Front - which some people want (like we do...). I haven't rented WSJ, but I think I could do easily. Then again, maybe I have just been lucky so far.

Of course - advertising correctly and being responsive helps - plus, if it helps - being a top poster on TUG (and trying to be helpful to others) gives some credibility - because it is the renter who has the most risk of being scammed and why some will pay more to Starwood than an unknown renter.