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Show this chart to anyone who tells you college isn't worth it

rickandcindy23

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The cost of higher education is a factor. The degree one chooses is a huge factor.
 

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The cost of higher education is a factor. The degree one chooses is a huge factor.
This exactly. There's a lot of confounding factors too - would someone who gets a degree just in general be someone who will eventually become highly skilled no matter what? There were reports that attempts to not use degrees as a selection factor failed many companies. IDK if this is just inability to do reasonable assessment or if a degree is actually a good enough indicator vs the cost to the employer to use it (virtually 0 direct cost) or just an inability to change the culture. I went and tried to sort of run the numbers again, and still came out that for an average person they're investing around $6,000 a year for 10-30 years of a student loan repayment to get $24,000 a year over that period. This is an incredible rate of return.

The thing is - this doesn't account for the number of people who go to college and don't actually get a degree. It doesn't give any numbers for that other than to say vaguely that people who just started but did not finish college got a pay bump, but how much vs cost? Who knows? So you need to take a realistic look at if a person you're recommending college to is going to succeed at college.
 

RX8

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Many college grads go into professions that have nothing to do with their degree. I am thankful that my dad pushed me to get my degree. My dad always used to say that having a college degree simply showed prospective employers that you had the capability to learn. So, even if a degree had nothing to do with the applied job, that degree alone could improve the chances of landing the job.
 

CalGalTraveler

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I would like to see this in more granular data. e.g. I wonder if tradespeople who own their own business would fare better. There is a shortage and people are willing to pay a lot of money for home reno. How do English Lit majors compare.
 

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Very flawed news article. It doesn't address full or part time work and doesn't go into the debt incurred. It is also bias against recent graduates. College that provides a useful education and leads to gainful employment is good. It served me well. However, college is not for everyone. Some people are better off going into the very needed trades. A good plumber or electrician makes more money and can easily complete their program debt free. To many use student loans to finance their lifestyles while in school. I have a relative than rang up $200K in student debt and now makes $40K as a social worker. Things have to change.

This is from the BLS.

"Though less common in the U.S. than in Europe, U.S. apprenticeship participation is on the rise. In fiscal year 2020 alone, 3,143 new programs were established, representing a 73% increase from 2009, and the number of active Registered Apprentices grew by 51% in the same period. And these programs are incredibly successful: 92% of apprentices retain employment after completing a Registered Apprenticeship and earn an average starting salary of $72,000."

Compare that to this:

"More than half of recent four-year college graduates, 52 percent, are underemployed a year after they graduate, according to a new report from Strada Institute for the Future of Work and the Burning Glass Institute. A decade after graduation, 45 percent of them still don’t hold a job that requires a four-year degree."

 
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StaceyM

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The cost of higher education is a factor. The degree one chooses is a huge factor.
This. Paying $250,000 to get a major in the humanities at a private college is a very different value/return than paying $100,000 to get an engineering degree at a public university.

Even better, spend $5000 at a community college to get two years of credit, transfer to a public university and spend an additional $50-60k to complete your degree.

The problem is, people act like all "4-year college degrees" are the same, which is completely false. In many cases, the right 2-year associates degree (usually specific vocational training) will out-earn many 4-year liberal arts degrees.
 

CO skier

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Very flawed news article.
As are so many such articles linked in the TUG Lounge. These kind of "articles" are not written for accuracy or journalistic value; they are written for sensationalism, so that when it finds its way to someone's daily "news" feed, it can be posted on TUG -- generating more "eyeballs" and the associated revenue for the publisher.
 

BJRSanDiego

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There is a video article that highlights the five highest paying jobs for new college grads and the five lowest paying jobs. The article actually focuses on gender pay-inequality but I am not focusing on that and don't want to highjack this thread.

I wonder if the career counselors in high school are doing a thorough enough job of exposing higher paying jobs versus jobs where the student may never be able to pay off their student loans. I suspect that one of the problems might be that the career counselors, who aren't paid particularly well, may not have a clue.

When a person borrows money to buy a house, the lending institution checks out the individual's ability to repay the loan. So, it would seem that lenders who finance student loans (like SLMA) should also be doing something similar.

Here is the link to the Prager U video:
 

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There is a video article that highlights the five highest paying jobs for new college grads and the five lowest paying jobs. The article actually focuses on gender pay-inequality but I am not focusing on that and don't want to highjack this thread.

I wonder if the career counselors in high school are doing a thorough enough job of exposing higher paying jobs versus jobs where the student may never be able to pay off their student loans. I suspect that one of the problems might be that the career counselors, who aren't paid particularly well, may not have a clue.

When a person borrows money to buy a house, the lending institution checks out the individual's ability to repay the loan. So, it would seem that lenders who finance student loans (like SLMA) should also be doing something similar.

Here is the link to the Prager U video:
With Federal student loans they can’t deny you for bad credit. An over supply of student loans is creating excessive debt. Why take only $10k when they will give you $20k.
 

TUGBrian

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saw the response to this by Mike Rowe today, felt it was also worth sharing

This is an important chart, and one worth sharing. Why? Because it’s utterly irrelevant, inherently stupid, deliberately flawed, and completely predictable. Indeed, the ubiquity of this chart, and the nonsense therein, is precisely why the cost of a four-year degree in America has risen faster than the cost of food, real-estate, energy, and healthcare.



In short, this chart and the attached article is another advertisement for “college at any price,” and sadly, it’s effective. Propaganda like this is very good at reinforcing the pernicious idea that a college degree is the proximate cause of a healthy paycheck, and a mandatory purchase for anyone who is serious about their career. The author, Emily Peck, is very concerned that Americans are beginning “to fall out of love with a four-degree.” She wants us to know that people with four-year degrees are more likely to earn more money than people with just a high school degree. But of course, that’s like saying people who work out at an expensive health club are more likely to be physically fit than those who stop exercising when they leave high school. Obviously, there are many ways to stay fit and healthy that are a hell of a lot cheaper than joining an expensive health club. Just as there are many ways to attain useful knowledge, that don’t require the purchase of a four-year degree.



The other obvious problem with Ms. Peck’s analysis, is that she only compares college graduates with four-year degrees, to a single cohort – high school graduates with no additional training. She doesn't mention skilled workers who graduated from trade schools or apprentice programs, and often go on to out-earn many people with advanced degrees. Nor does she mention small business owners who took myriad home study courses, or successful entrepreneurs who enrolled in community colleges or took any number of courses and seminars that prepared them to earn a handsome living. She simply ignores all other forms of learning. She also makes no mention of the $1.7 trillion dollars of outstanding student loans, or the weekly scandals that continue to humiliate the university system, or the fact that 41% of those who enroll in four-year universities drop out before they graduate, or the fact that the overwhelming majority of college graduates don’t find work in their chosen field, or the fact that the average GPA at Harvard in 1955 was 2.5, but has since risen to 3.8. (Credential inflation, anyone?) All she does in this article, is compare the median earnings of people with four-year degrees, with the median earnings of people who did nothing to advance their education after high school. She then leaps to the conclusion that there's a terrible "wage gap," that can only be solved if everyone gets a four-year degree.



Not to belabor the point, but let’s again compare the importance of being healthy and fit, with the importance of being educated. I think we can all agree that education and physical fitness are both vitally important to living a productive life. But how ridiculous would it be if society elevated health clubs the same way that we’ve elevated universities that offer four-year degrees? How ridiculous would it be if Ms. Peck published a chart that “proves” members who join expensive health clubs are healthier than people who don’t exercise at all, and then concluded that the best way for the most people to stay fit and healthy, is to borrow whatever amount of money it takes to join the most expensive club in town? How unconscionable would it then be, to pressure high school graduates to pay thousands of dollars a month to work out at the most expensive gym in town, when we all know that anyone who wants to get healthy and fit can do so without going into debt?



This is the reason I’ve avoided politics. Like Ms. Peck, our elected officials like to paint with a very broad brush. They say things like, “everyone should go to college,” or “all unions are good,” or “all student loans should be forgiven,” or “all jobs should pay at least $20 an hour,” and so forth. They don’t talk to individuals; they talk to groups. And the moment they start talking to groups, they wind up pointing to articles like this and promising “to close the wage gap, and get every single kid on the college track, no matter what the cost!” Is it any wonder universities keep raising their tuition? Is it any wonder kids keep going further into debt? Is it any wonder we have nearly 10 million open positions, most of which DON'T require a four-year degree?



At mikeroweWORKS, we don’t care about the wage gap between various groups, because we don’t care about groups. We care about individuals. And right now, we’re offering another million dollars in work ethic scholarships to those individuals who want to learn a skill that’s in demand. Specifically, a skill that doesn’t require a four-year degree. From welding to cosmetology, healthcare to the construction trades, we’ve so far assisted nearly 2,000 individuals with over $8 million dollars in scholarships. You can apply for one right now, at mikeroweWORKS.org/scholarship. You can also donate, if you share my suspicion that the best path for the most people, has to be the most expensive.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/04/co...hoa_zucGGHlKTXDF3vj2Vew1hjE7dYLoaybBrBltQKkFo
 

amycurl

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College loan lenders don’t do due diligence because folx can’t default. If these loans—like every other loan on the planet—would become at risk in bankruptcy, it would immediately change the pricing and lending dynamics of higher Ed. It’s become a moral hazard.


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