My Thoughts on the Safety of the Boeing 737 Max 8

[dougp26364]

One of the rare news articles I’ve read that didn’t use drama to draw readers in discussed how 3rd world countries have become major markets and, because of this there is a growing shortage of pilots. Secondary to the shortage of pilots manufacturors of aircraft have begun “automizing” systems so pilots with LESS training can fly them.

IMHO this is a big problem that is shared by both the companies selling the plane (more dangerous but more sales) and the airlines that fly them (less experience but bigger profits). In the end if, and I should enunciated the if, this is the problem, everyone’s profits are likely to take a hit.

 

[x3 skier]

For those interested, here’s an excerpt from the report I read noting immediate action by the pilot to disengage the autopilot when the 737 Max pitched over on climb out.


“Day 3 of 3 departing in a MAX 8 after a long overnight. I was well rested and had discussed the recent MAX 8 MCAS guidance with the Captain. On departure, we had strong crosswinds (gusts > 30 knots) directly off the right wing, however, no LLWS or Micro-burst activity was reported at the field. After verifying LNAV, selecting gear and flaps up, I set "UP" speed. The aircraft accelerated normally and the Captain engaged the "A" autopilot after reaching set speed. Within two to three seconds the aircraft pitched nose down bringing the VSI to approximately 1,200 to 1,500 FPM. I called "descending" just prior to the GPWS sounding "don't sink, don't sink." The Captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and pitched into a climb. The remainder of the flight was uneventful. We discussed the departure at length and I reviewed in my mind our automation setup and flight profile but can't think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively.“

The reporting system does not publish the names or identify the specific aircraft to encourage reporting of every abnormal situation no matter the cause, pilot error, controller error, failure or design flaw. This system is designed to illuminate problems for further investigation and for pilot education.

IF and I repeat, IF, neither of the pilots in the crashes responded by disconnecting the autopilot, it COULD be the cause of the two crashes. Why the MCAS doesn’t work correctly, if true, is another question entirely.

Cheers

 

[MULTIZ321]

For those interested, here’s an excerpt from the report I read noting immediate action by the pilot to disengage the autopilot when the 737 Max pitched over on climb out.


“Day 3 of 3 departing in a MAX 8 after a long overnight. I was well rested and had discussed the recent MAX 8 MCAS guidance with the Captain. On departure, we had strong crosswinds (gusts > 30 knots) directly off the right wing, however, no LLWS or Micro-burst activity was reported at the field. After verifying LNAV, selecting gear and flaps up, I set "UP" speed. The aircraft accelerated normally and the Captain engaged the "A" autopilot after reaching set speed. Within two to three seconds the aircraft pitched nose down bringing the VSI to approximately 1,200 to 1,500 FPM. I called "descending" just prior to the GPWS sounding "don't sink, don't sink." The Captain immediately disconnected the autopilot and pitched into a climb. The remainder of the flight was uneventful. We discussed the departure at length and I reviewed in my mind our automation setup and flight profile but can't think of any reason the aircraft would pitch nose down so aggressively.“

The reporting system does not publish the names or identify the specific aircraft to encourage reporting of every abnormal situation no matter the cause, pilot error, controller error, failure or design flaw. This system is designed to illuminate problems for further investigation and for pilot education.

IF and I repeat, IF, neither of the pilots in the crashes responded by disconnecting the autopilot, it COULD be the cause of the two crashes. Why the MCAS doesn’t work correctly, if true, is another question entirely.

Cheers

Hi X3Skier,

Thanks for the update. Your expertise is always welcome.


Best Regards,

Richard

 

[x3 skier]

Doing some more research, I found an Emergengy Airworthiness Directive issued on 7 November 2018 dealing with this situation. It calls for disengagement of the autopilot when the aircraft is pitched down due to erratic or incorrect sensor information being fed into the autopilot.

If this information and required action had been implemented correctly by the airlines and regulators of the involved crash aircrafts, and the pilots properly trained to react, I believe they could have controlled the plane and avoided the crashes. What design change and/or maintenance procedures are required to eliminate the problem is unclear to me.

This information and the report I posted earlier further reinforces my lack of concern about flying on US Airline 737 Max aircraft and also reinforces my choice not to fly on third world airlines.

Cheers

 

[bogey21]

Thanks for the info regarding the 1959 Electra issue. I never knew that they figured it out. All I knew is I was flying the Electra extensively between Houston and Atlanta then from Atlanta to Philadelphia. At the time I was too young to be scared...

George

 

[moonstone]

Add Canada to the list of countries banning the MAX 8 & 9.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/garneau-boeing-ethiopia-crash-1.5054234

(If the name of our Transport Minister sounds familiar, he was an astronaut with NASA. Marc Garneau was the first Canadian in space, taking part in three flights aboard NASA Space Shuttles in 1984, 1996 and 2000.)


~Diane

 

[MULTIZ321]

Ethiopia refuses to send black box from crashed Boeing 737 Max 8 to United States for analysis.


https://www.theglobeandmail.com/wor...d-black-box-from-crashed-boeing-737-max-8-to/


Richard

 

[MULTIZ321]

Pilots complained about autopilot issues with
Boeing jets involved in two deadly crashes.


https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/13/18263751/boeing-737-max-8-pilot-complaint-autopilot-mcas.


Richard

 

[MULTIZ321]

Boeing's fixes to 737 MAX software delayed by government shutdown, report claims.

https://arstechnica.com/information...delayed-by-government-shutdown-report-claims/


Richard

 

[Chrispee]

Air Canada call centre is not accepting calls right now. I have a flight on a MAX 8 booked at the end of the month, so hopefully this gets resolved fast!

 

[pedro47]

President Trump just ordered the grounding of all Boeing’s 737 Max 8’s and 9’s aircrafts in the United States .

The Boeing’s 737 Max 8’s and 9’s aircrafts have now been officially grounded all over the world.

The United States was the last country to ground the Boeing’s 737 Max aircrafts.

 

[Talent312]

Now might be a good time to buy Boeing stock.
.

 

[Chrispee]

Now might be a good time to buy Boeing stock.
.

Stock price opened and closed pretty even today. Surprising to me!

 

[davidvel]

Here are all the MAX 8s and 9s (both are at issue) currently flying:
MAX 8
MAX 9

 

[davidvel]

Stock price opened and closed pretty even today. Pretty surprising to me!

It actually was diving and bounced back AFTER the grounding. (no pun intended)

 

[WVBaker]

Looks like all 737 8&9 both grounded by FAA.

 

[Chrispee]

Are there any TUG mambers with a timeshare checkin this weekend who will be affected by the grounding? I have a flight to LIH on Friday on a 737-800, but my return flight is scheduled on a Max 8...

 

[AnnaS]

I am happy to hear the US is also grounding the Max 8s and 9s.

Let them investigate.

 

[Ken555]

Air Canada call centre is not accepting calls right now. I have a flight on a MAX 8 booked at the end of the month, so hopefully this gets resolved fast!

Westjet is only accommodating those flying within the next few days, for comparison. I’m not sure if they expect a speedy resolution or are doing this just to limit the incoming calls.

I booked a flight for Sept yesterday with Westjet on their new 787 and it turns out also has a 737 Max 8 as part of the itinerary. I’ll be watching.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Chrispee]

My flight to LIH is on Westjet so hopefully their schedule scrambling doesn't affect me even though I'm on a 737-800. My thought is they'll have a fix in place by the end of next week, but perhaps I'm being overly optimistic! At least it won't be a huge bummer if I'm stuck on Kauai for a few extra days.

 

[bluehende]

I saw a pilot today on CNBC that said the plane was at 800 ft. He was saying that at this height the pilot has time to react but not much. Any confusion could take up any margin for safety and was a tragedy waiting to happen. He was a former Boeing employee. Flew the 737 professionally and now writes for an aviation magazine. He seemed credible and while saying if it was the autopilot the pilot does have time to react it is not hard to believe that even a competent pilot could get confused enough to delay disengaging the autopilot.

The groundings today came from information that this accident was essentially the same as the last one being confirmed by satellite data. When two planes go down in the exact same way it seems prudent to me to check things out.

 

[davidvel]

My flight to LIH is on Westjet so hopefully their schedule scrambling doesn't affect me even though I'm on a 737-800. My thought is they'll have a fix in place by the end of next week, but perhaps I'm being overly optimistic! At least it won't be a huge bummer if I'm stuck on Kauai for a few extra days.

A 737-800 is not a Max 8.

 

[Ken555]

A 737-800 is not a Max 8.

Read her post again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Chrispee]

A 737-800 is not a Max 8.

My flight to LIH is in a WestJet 737-800 so I’m only worried about equipment getting shuffled around for other cancelled flights. My return flight at the end of the month is on an Air Canada 737 Max 8.

 

[davidvel]

Read her post again.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My flight to LIH is in a WestJet 737-800 so I’m only worried about equipment getting shuffled around for other cancelled flights. My return flight at the end of the month is on an Air Canada 737 Max 8.

Gotcha. Missed the nuance. I'm sure all airlines are scrambling to rearrange aircraft and schedules based upon demand etc. Good luck to you and all.