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HELP! Family member needs to unload Wyndham and Hilton

Grammarhero

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Okay, Thanks. your responses help confirm our worst fears. yikes. He has owned the timeshares with Wyndham since 2009 and from what I can tell has paid off 150K and still owes 150K. I have no idea how they ever thought they would get enough use out of it to make sense for the financial investment. And yes, I believe he was working, way past retirement age, to help cover the costs of the timeshares. The monthly costs on the two for both maintenance and mortgage total around $4000. This is more than they have available from Social Security.

He has a 401k. If he claims bankruptcy will they try to take money from this and try to take his house etc?

the contract is 346 pages long. From an outsiders point of view Wyndham looks criminal to me. If anyone has a legitimate lawyer or financial advisory they trust and can help advise please let me know.

He is embarrassed and I don't want to further shame him about it. But I don't see a way out except for default.

Does anyone know if Wyndham sues if you stop paying? They won't help come up with solutions other than transferring the deed to a family member- NO THANK YOU- or if its already paid off.

ugh. Thanks.

Ashleigh, you seriously need to consult a bankruptcy attorney. You are asking advice far beyond what TUG is equipped to provide. I'm a NY barred attorney. I can only tell you what might happen in NY and based on general legal insight, not on the specific laws of your state.

The Wyndham contract is iron clad, one-sided, but not technically or legally criminal. Wyndham has paid hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars, to brilliant, millionaire attorneys to prepare those iron-clad TS contracts and limit your legal options.

For Chapter 7 bankruptcy, in NY, the bankruptcy estate can take flier's house, cars, and anything past "exempt" amounts. For Chapter 13 bankruptcy, in NY, fliers can keep his/her house and cars, but possibly lose everything else. Under ERISA, in NY, the bankruptcy trustee can't take flier's 401k or SS benefits unless it's over $1.2 million. https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/bankruptcy-chapter-7-vs-chapter-13/

If you default, in NY, Wyndham can sue for at least one years worth of MF and the mortgage, apparently about $48k ($4k times 12 months). However, under ERISA, in NY, Wyndham wouldn't be able to go after flier's 401k or SS benefits.

All my TS are in my name only, not my wife's or child's. Hate to sound morbid, but you want to keep the TS in his name. When he passes, the TS won't burden your family.

Good luck.
 
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Passepartout

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Okay, Thanks. your responses help confirm our worst fears. yikes. He has owned the timeshares with Wyndham since 2009 and from what I can tell has paid off 150K and still owes 150K. I have no idea how they ever thought they would get enough use out of it to make sense for the financial investment. And yes, I believe he was working, way past retirement age, to help cover the costs of the timeshares. The monthly costs on the two for both maintenance and mortgage total around $4000. This is more than they have available from Social Security.

He has a 401k. If he claims bankruptcy will they try to take money from this and try to take his house etc?

the contract is 346 pages long. From an outsiders point of view Wyndham looks criminal to me. If anyone has a legitimate lawyer or financial advisory they trust and can help advise please let me know.

He is embarrassed and I don't want to further shame him about it. But I don't see a way out except for default.

Does anyone know if Wyndham sues if you stop paying? They won't help come up with solutions other than transferring the deed to a family member- NO THANK YOU- or if its already paid off.

ugh. Thanks.

Angela, what state does he reside in? Please don't think of ANYTHING you read here as legal advice. He may be embarrassed, but truly he needs to see a bankruptcy lawyer before proceeding. As to lawsuits, with the amount he owes, it's likely that the TS companies will turn him over to a collection agency. There is a good chance they will report the default to the credit agencies. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It will keep him from acquiring more credit. A BK attorney may also find that he is (and creditors hate THIS) JUDGEMENT PROOF. If his only source of income is SS, and his 401(k), and his only major asset is a home, he might be able to 'cram down' the TS bill. He won't know without a consultation.

Another thing, that may matter to you or other family members. How are the TSs titled? If they are jointly held (usually husband and wife) other family members could be held responsible after his passing. If he just has it/them in his name only, the inheritance can be refused. Again consult an estate planning professional.

Best Wishes.

Jim
 
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rapmarks

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I have felt bad for people who have posted on tug because they got in over their head, but this is the worst thing I have ever heard. Seems to me selling someone his age the amount they did should be a crime.
 

CPNY

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I think I figured it out, he doesn’t own a timeshare. He’s a developer trying to sell them lol
 

Grammarhero

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I have felt bad for people who have posted on tug because they got in over their head, but this is the worst thing I have ever heard. Seems to me selling someone his age the amount they did should be a crime.
The TS lobby is very powerful and wealthy, frequently donating millions to and "treating" these lawmakers to free stays without TS sales presentations. https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2017/06/your-summer-vacation-democratic-or-republican/
With their donations and free gifts, unfortunately, lawmakers will be hesitant to make any selling of TS criminally illegal.
 

HudsHut

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This individual was 65 in 2009 when he made the (first) purchase. It is likely that each time he visited the timeshare, he was persuaded to upgrade. It is likely that the salesmen called with the ruse "there is a problem with your account", when in fact, their intent was to pressure him to upgrade. Seniors are much more likely to answer the phone, and to believe the person on the phone.
If he is not internet savvy, he would know nothing about the resale market or that the timeshare value dropped immediately upon purchasing. He would not be skeptical.

Is there a consumer advocacy radio/tv personality in the area? In the Bay Area, we have Michael Finney of "7 on your side". https://abc7news.com/business/contact-7-on-your-side/47207/
It's a long shot that such a program will take your case, but if they did, the negative publicity may incent the timeshares to come to an agreement.

----
Before seeing the attorney, get the facts down pat. Lay out a timeline. Get the latest statements to show exactly what amount is owed, and to whom.
Date of purchase. Timeshare name, # of points. $ amount.
Next date of purchase, etc.

Find his reservation history in both systems. How many times has he stayed at the timeshares. He may not have used them very much, or at all.
The only case may be that the timeshares took advantage of a senior citizen and (repeatedly?) sold a product that was wholly unsuitable to a person of that age.

----
Angela:
thank you for helping this individual. You are a very kind, caring person.
 
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Grammarhero

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This individual was 65 in 2009 when he made the (first) purchase. It is likely that each time he visited the timeshare, he was persuaded to upgrade. It is likely that the salesmen called with the ruse "there is a problem with your account", when in fact, their intent was to pressure him to upgrade. Seniors are much more likely to answer the phone, and to believe the person on the phone.
If he is not internet savvy, he would know nothing about the resale market or that the timeshare value dropped immediately upon purchasing. He would not be skeptical.

Is there a consumer advocacy radio/tv personality in the area? In the Bay Area, we have Michael Finney of "7 on your side". https://abc7news.com/business/contact-7-on-your-side/47207/
It's a long shot that such a program will take your case, but if they did, the negative publicity may incent the timeshares to come to an agreement.

Before seeing the attorney, get the facts down pat. Lay out a timeline. Get the latest statements to show exactly what amount is owed, and to whom.
Date of purchase. Timeshare name, # of points. $ amount.
Next date of purchase, etc.

Find his his reservation history in both systems. How many times has he stayed at the timeshares. He may not have used them very much, or at all.
The only case may be that the timeshare took advantage of a senior citizen and sold a product that was wholly unsuitable to a person of that age.

I don’t think the OP’s family member has the funds to hire a consumer protection attorney to wage a court battle to invalidate said timeshare contracts. Said consumer protection attorneys will cost $10k-$25k, without any guarantee of success.

I do agree with gathering all facts, so the bankruptcy attorney can make the best decision. The OP’s family member’s best choices given his income is to retain a bankruptcy attorney ($3k-$5k), forget these TSs, and try to live within his means for the rest of his life.


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bogey21

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Before seeing the attorney, get the facts down pat. Lay out a timeline. Get the latest statements to show exactly what amount is owed, and to whom. Date of purchase. Timeshare name, # of points. $ amount, etc.

Absolutely essential. Also have in hand how stuff is titled. Is it him alone or is someone else on Deeds and Notes...

George
 

HudsHut

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The type of consumer advocate programs I was mentioning are free to the consumer. They have a staff that may make a call on the consumer's behalf (e.g. exorbitant car repair that didn't fix the problem). They will also highlight an interesting case on their radio/tv program. That publicity usually results in a better outcome for the consumer, than the consumer trying to fight the battle himself.

Angela should also look for Social Services in the area where the individual lives for consumer protection attorneys. Ask their fees. If that cost is too high, then go with the bankruptcy attorney.
example:
  • North Penn Legal Services -- A nonprofit organization providing civil legal aid to low-income residents of Northeastern Pennsylvania. We provide legal assistance so that people can know their rights and free legal representation in non-criminal matters such as eviction from housing, discrimination, family law, and consumer protection issues.
 

Grammarhero

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The type of consumer advocate programs I was mentioning are free to the consumer. They have a staff that may make a call on the consumer's behalf (e.g. exorbitant car repair that didn't fix the problem). They will also highlight an interesting case on their radio/tv program. That publicity usually results in a better outcome for the consumer, than the consumer trying to fight the battle himself.

Angela should also look for Social Services in the area where the individual lives for consumer protection attorneys. Ask their fees. If that cost is too high, then go with the bankruptcy attorney.
example:
  • North Penn Legal Services -- A nonprofit organization providing civil legal aid to low-income residents of Northeastern Pennsylvania. We provide legal assistance so that people can know their rights and free legal representation in non-criminal matters such as eviction from housing, discrimination, family law, and consumer protection issues.

I stand corrected then.
 

HudsHut

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I stand corrected then.

I agree with you that going to a private consumer protection attorney will be way too expensive.
(I realize now that the way I wrote my paragraph when I said "Before seeing the attorney", it appeared this thought was connected to the prior paragraph. I have broken them apart as two separate thoughts now.)
 

silentg

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There should be a law against this kind of thing. Elderly are easily sold things because they think it’s a good deal. This is why we don’t go to presentations anymore. Even when you say no, they try to talk you into just coming for the gift card or free bees, No thanks, there are strings attached.
We plan to use the weeks we own and not add to our timeshare ownerships.
Being a TUG member has taught me to investigate and learn how to use our timeshares for our enjoyment and not care for bells and whistles.
I hope the woman in the Video got her money back. A family member had a bad experience with Wyndham and with the help of her children got out of a points agreement that she didn’t understand or need. Also, The OP of this thread should be able to get out of this obligation, if they get a lawyer to help.
Be careful out there, the sharks are not just in the water.
Silentg
 

Passepartout

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Everyone here is both appalled, and trying to help however we can. But we are operating with an abundance of unknown information. Like his state of residence. Why he was discharged. His mental acuity for making these purchases starting at age 65.

This is simply the WORST case of overextension, and seemingly a senior being taken advantage of be timeshare salesweasel- EVER on TUG.

The suggestion of employing a TV investigation team might just work. They are always looking for a headline grabbing story, and this one is a hum- dinger! Obviously, the victim would have to be on board.

Anyway, Angela, start by gathering information. See about getting legal advice. This is far more than just stopping paying- though that's part of it.

we wish you well.

Jim
 

bluehende

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A consumer protection agency helping would certainly be best, but do not underestimate the power of invoking what the optics would look like if Wyndham tries to sue or go after the OP. You need to use any leverage available.
 

Grammarhero

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There should be a law against this kind of thing. Elderly are easily sold things because they think it’s a good deal. This is why we don’t go to presentations anymore. Even when you say no, they try to talk you into just coming for the gift card or free bees, No thanks, there are strings attached.
We plan to use the weeks we own and not add to our timeshare ownerships.
Being a TUG member has taught me to investigate and learn how to use our timeshares for our enjoyment and not care for bells and whistles.
I hope the woman in the Video got her money back. A family member had a bad experience with Wyndham and with the help of her children got out of a points agreement that she didn’t understand or need. Also, The OP of this thread should be able to get out of this obligation, if they get a lawyer to help.
Be careful out there, the sharks are not just in the water.
Silentg

I agree there should be laws against this practice, but there won't be as long as the TS lobby donates and gives free stays to politicians and lawmakers.
 

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How do we know there’s a victim?
$4,000 a month payment shows he had a good job

Maybe his job changed before this retirement thing ?
Maybe he walked in like a movie star and loaded up?

We can’t just cry victim when we want out can we?

I think there’s a lot more to this story

He may be a victim or may be a big shot that failed??
 

Passepartout

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How do we know there’s a victim?
$4,000 a month payment shows he had a good job

He may be a victim or may be a big shot that failed??
Yes, we know few details except what Angela wrote. But I'd make a small unspecified wager that he was a senior who some greedy salesman hooked real good and made a healthy commission from, over and over. If you want to think he was a failed tycoon, that's your prerogative.
 

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Yes, we know few details except what Angela wrote. But I'd make a small unspecified wager that he was a senior who some greedy salesman hooked real good and made a healthy commission from, over and over. If you want to think he was a failed tycoon, that's your prerogative.

I had to go back and re read the thread
You must be getting PM’d information as no where did I read a post that stated his income
So how do you know it,

My point. Maybe he made $500,000k per year and bought what he could afford??

Maybe he acted like he made that and still bought?

I don’t have that information. Either I need to go back and read both her post again. Or google around a bit

I’m sick of people always blaming or assuming
I see a lot of pissed off people trying like xxxx to make a company bail them out

We as a species are failing miserably when we screw up time after time and then want a pass
 

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I think I kind of resent the implication that those of us over the age of 65 need to be protected from ourselves. I'm 84½ and willing to bet the ranch (actually yours as I don't own one) that I am fully competent to make rational financial decisions...
 

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I think I kind of resent the implication that those of us over the age of 65 need to be protected from ourselves. I'm 84½ and willing to bet the ranch (actually yours as I don't own one) that I am fully competent to make rational financial decisions...

Exactly!!

I couldn’t burn my neighbors house down and then expect all the other neighbors to pay for a new one

I’d be the one answering for my actions

I know I need to pay more for items because someone else either stole or was given a free pass

This “ I’m not accountable “ mentality needs to go away
 

Grammarhero

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I think I kind of resent the implication that those of us over the age of 65 need to be protected from ourselves. I'm 84½ and willing to bet the ranch (actually yours as I don't own one) that I am fully competent to make rational financial decisions...

I think you’re sort of the exception instead of the norm. Many people have lost their marbles when older.


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Passepartout

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I think I kind of resent the implication that those of us over the age of 65 need to be protected from ourselves. I'm 84½ and willing to bet the ranch (actually yours as I don't own one) that I am fully competent to make rational financial decisions...
George, I think you're a good bit sharper than the average seasoned citizen. But the proof is easily found that older people are frequently preyed upon by unscrupulous sales people and scam artists- and the medical community. Just look at the ads that accompany the evening news.

Jim
 

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Every age group is preyed upon.

In this case. This guy had what seems to be a good job. Not sure
But somehow he did this over a 10 year period and my guess is that since he’s paid 1/2 off that he has owned most if not all of it from the start

My complaint is to blame the seller is ridiculous

I just bought a new $75,000 F150 and I highly doubt I can go back to Ford next year with channel 5 news and get my money back

My decision. Good or bad
 

Passepartout

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I just bought a new $75,000 F150 and I highly doubt I can go back to Ford next year with channel 5 news and get my money back

My decision. Good or bad
But next year, that Ford will still be worth SOMETHING paid for or not. You can take it back to the dealer and get SOMETHING in exchange for the title.Those timeshares are not worth a tinker's dam. The seller will not take them back for anything, because they know they are virtually worthless.
 

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But next year, that Ford will still be worth SOMETHING paid for or not. You can take it back to the dealer and get SOMETHING in exchange for the title.Those timeshares are not worth a tinker's dam. The seller will not take them back for anything, because they know they are virtually worthless.

At some point it will be worth $1 but I will have received some sort of use benefit
My point wasn’t the TS or trucks value
It was the decision I made to buy a $75k vehicle
Was it a good or bad decision?
Only I can answer that but it was my decision and it’s up to me to pay for it

Now if I give it back. Like everyone expect they should be able to do with TS then when you go buy your next vehicle. You will pay more to cover for my poor decisions
 
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