Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation]

[Fasttr]

Moderator Note: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ

Clearly more crap from those who don't understand the system. DC Exchange, yes....DC Trust, no. Fake News .

 

[Dean]

As regards SVN, I think you're right on. People here generally seem to overestimate the protections they have. I generally think two things go into MVC's thinking (and honestly, to Vistana and ILG before them):

1) How do we orchestrate an exchange system that DOES comport with the actual deeded protections (which for floating week resorts generally says during a certain period - usually the home resort period - reservations are on a first-come first-served basis and without competition from non-home resort owners). This may sound simple, but in practice the complications of a multi-trust/multi-brand overarching system, it's hard to manage inventory in a fluid way even respecting this basic principle. Thus I suspect they try to create something that might technically violate this at times but generally ensures owners are happy and get reasonable access to their resort. I have long suspected that if MVC or SVN reservation systems were audited, there would certainly be some technical violations of the specific requirements in deeds.

2) How do we orchestrate a system that doesn't marginalize or alienate any single group of owners (at a specific resort or within a specific system). Basically, I do believe they are motivated to institute something that is (or at least can be "sold" as) fair. Even if they have wide latitude to make big changes in existing systems or new systems, any short-term gain they can make by taking advantage of this latitude comes at the price of long-term gains. Thus far I think MVC has kept this in mind and taken a pretty fair and balanced approach (certainly not perfect) to the DC.

They certainly have a lot to balance with these systems. I think it's clear they're not going to run them as separate entities which then raises the questions of how they will integrate them. I'm sure they'd like to keep as many happy as possible and get as many as possible into the DC system over time. Without knowing the intricacies of the legal documents, their ideal situation would be to do away with the respective points systems and just run it all with either the underlying week or the DC. This may not be possible or it may not be possible for all of the resorts which might mean they do a hybrid like Asia Pacific or it might mean they move on some of the resorts. I would be surprised if there were no provisions to exit a given resort from it's system and that's the least common denominator I suspect. But as the salesman said at our presentation when I asked about this, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. There will be a chunk of people who are not happy and a chunk of those that are vocal about it. The next year or 2 should be very interesting and entertaining.

You are exactly right and thanks for pointing out for less protection than we think (we can sell as our last protection). Who knows what will happen in both programs, but in short term at least, our SVN owners will just continue to enjoy our great SVN program. The best scenario is to have the best of both systems, keep staroption reservation chart and the ability to use DC for a small fee. The worst scenario is they crack SVN down completely and face angry customers. Of course anything can happen in between, and with TUG board, I will monitor it closely. I can always exit if things don't look right for Vistana program, so I think we are in perfectly spot with only something to gain. I'm excited about the future change.

I too see more positive than negative, I'll be interested in the responses here in a few months.

 

[JIMinNC]

Moderator Note: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ

Doesn't ring as legit for at least two reasons:

1) Owners can't deposit their units into the DC Trust. Only Marriott can deed weeks into the Trust; owners must deposit their weeks into the DC Exchange.
2) The use of "MVG". What is that? There is no such entity that I'm aware of with those initials. Marriott Vacation Club is MVC. The parent company is Marriott Vacations Worldwide (MVW). I've seen some posters here on TUG use the MVG acronym, but that would never show up in anything official.

I think the quoted post is an attempt at sarcasm back to the original post that stated this all...given the subsequent comments.

 

[Fasttr]

Moderator Note: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ

Since we are using our senses.... I smell something, and it certainly doesn't smell like a PDF. ;-)

 

[JIMinNC]

Moderator Note: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ

This discussion had moved way beyond the original post and some of the contentious comments that followed. It had actually evolved into a reasonable and informed discussion about what might happen in the months ahead - with honest evaluation of pros and cons. I see no value in re-litigating the OP. It risks causing this thread to degenerate again and receiving the wrath of the Moderators. Why dredge that up again?

 

[TXTortoise]

With a few exceptions I always felt that the Facebook Marriott groups were somewhat like high school, with a few folks having a clue while most are just typing to see their words and express their narrow understanding as gospel, even if well intentioned....while TUG was college level, with thoughtful, polite comments from folks that take time to listen for awhile and integrate with the group before they share their thoughts, and hopefully add value.

This thread almost got back to being valuable, but seems like the freshmen class keeps dragging everyone back down. Did this happen back in 2010?

 

[Ken555]

TUG needs a dislike button.


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[SMB1]

Let me start with I think it’s difficult to compare a timeshare point system to one of a loyalty program where their points are gifts. They throw points at people to retain their business you’re at the mercy of the master in that case. Contracts weren’t signed and there’s is little to zero repercussions in program changes and devaluations.

Moving onto Vistana weeks and flex program. It wasn’t set up like DC. You never have to enroll your week or pay any fee. Mandatory means the resort you bought into HAS to be enrolled in the VSN with access to book any resort with the assigned star options your deed is worth. Think of it a hybrid week/DC kind of ownership. The mandatory means that if I sell my developer purchase to you for 100 bucks you get that same benefit because contractually, that week has to be a member in the network. It’s a coveted deed.

Voluntary means ONLY the developer purchase is enrolled. So once it’s a resale you are no longer a member in the VSN and your star option allotment is only able to be booked back into your home resort where you own. Now you have priority 12-8 months at check in or exchange in II. You can pick those up for free on the marketplace.

Flex ownership is fairly new. Extremely new for westin. The Sheraton flex a few years while Westin and Aventura flex is the newest. Think of those as mini DC programs but only using your points in each resort in each brand. Those are also “voluntary” interests. If you bought from developer you get priority booking in the resorts in the flex you bought into then at 8 months you can book any resort in the network. Essentially you’re deeded into every week in the season you buy at every resort in the flex, with booking all resorts at 8 months. But the buyer on resale loses the right to book other resorts.

Now, people didn’t have to enroll their weeks into these flex programs. They gave back their deeds and Vistana was giving them “Monopoly money” toward the purchase of a new flex program, which = a new developer purchase. A savvy owner who owned a mandatory week would never do that. But An owner who doesn’t know much would, especially when high pressure sales guys are telling you they will give you money toward a new purchase the customer might think that’s a good buy. Keep in mind, many owners go on their “update” thinking that’s what it is, an actual update to the resort and are hoping to hear they are putting in a new racket ball court or new water slides. That’s never the case. It’s a sales pitch and people get suckered into buying more. I digress.

However you could always retro your deeded week. say if you bought a voluntary deed on resale and wanted those staroptions to be a member in the VSN to be booked anywhere else, then you would have to make a minimum developer purchase and they would re enroll that voluntary deed you picked up on resale and brought it into the network.

As an owner of mandatory properties I got on resale cheap with the ability to book in VSN I’m pretty content and can’t see myself giving up what i have and then giving them possibly thousands more to book a Marriott. I’ll just rent my week to cover maint fees then rent a MVC property on the marketplace. Then I will always have the availability I want as well

Like I tell people, if you’re not gonna buy resale, just rent on the marketplace, join timeshare rental groups on social media, check eBay! Sometimes you pay less than MF.

Thanks for the lesson. I have a better understanding, and sounds like mandatory properties are definitely the way to go in VSN. I think I like the idea that I can keep my Marriott weeks and elect points if/when I want rather than having to give back the week and purchase DC like a voluntary VSN week. But if you could enroll a mandatory week in DC for a low initial fee, gain the corporate II acount, and ability to keep your week, or elect DC points with it, IMO you would be wise to do so. Best of both worlds.

This is crazy. I can get almost 2 Westin Kierland deeds with that price that can get me 2 weeks at Maui with $1600 MF per week. or 4 weeks if I lock off.

Yeah 7,895 transfer fee. Maybe the buy in was 5K. Wow that’s insanity. I’ll be more than happy with a westing kierland villas deeded week

You can do the same with a resale Marriott legacy week. Doesn't have to be enrolled. No $8,000 qualifying fee. Just buy the week to use, trade, or rent like a VSN voluntary week.

And still have it to this day? Hey, we could have best of both. Who knows how it shakes out. I just don’t want to be tripping over everyone for availability in my favorite resorts.

Yes we still have the best of both worlds. I wouldn't be too concerned about availability. I was very skeptical in the beginning of the DC as well. I thought all these people buying DC points, which effectively were for mud weeks at ski resorts or summer in the desert, would create tremendous competition for prime weeks. However I learned, that much like Wyndham, this flexibility allowed people to take one bedrooms or studios instead of two bedrooms if they didn't need them. It allowed them to book multiple weeks in the off-season instead of their one week in prime season. This allows the owner to stretch his or her points. And it allows others who may have had an island view unit or an off-season unit to book during prime season or ocean front or whatever. Although I was skeptical in 2010 after our first DC booking we have elected points every year. We haven't used II since 2010. We have been 100% happy with availability. And I'm a teacher, so we have to travel prime time all the time.We have even purchased trust points.

I originally felt like many Marriott and VSN in owners have expressed in this thread, that I didn't want competition from VSN owners regarding access to the Marriott properties and that I didn't care much about the VSN properties. I guess I'm skeptical at first. I'll never go to Mexico and Marriott has great properties most of the other places VSN does. But I read somewhere here that VSN has superior ski resorts. If so, I'd definitely take advantage of that. Sounds like the Hawaii resorts are great. I'd take advantage of that. I'm sure there would be other benefits as well.

There are some Marriott owners who are not as happy with the DC as me and will never enroll, or have but will never elect. Each to his own. But I am 100% sure that, if VSN owners have the opportunity to join the DC (or comparable program) some/many, who are skeptical now, years down the road will wonder how they ever survived without the flexibility afforded by this option.

Deposit, request, wait and see? Cross my fingers? Pay an exchange fee? Pay a lockoff fee? An upgrade fee? Guest certificate fee? Never again. Transaction fee? Cancellation fee? Housekeeping credits? I don't know about VSN, but I do know II and Wyndham nickel and dime with this fee and that fee. None of this with Marriott... though you might pay more up front.

 

[StevenTing]

I was 200 posts behind. Just got caught up. My brain hurts now.

But really, why worry about it until it happens? I have what I have and I'm likely not going to change or purchase more. Enjoy what you own.

 

[CPNY]

Thanks for the lesson. I have a better understanding, and sounds like mandatory properties are definitely the way to go in VSN. I think I like the idea that I can keep my Marriott weeks and elect points if/when I want rather than having to give back the week and purchase DC like a voluntary VSN week. But if you could enroll a mandatory week in DC for a low initial fee, gain the corporate II acount, and ability to keep your week, or elect DC points with it, IMO you would be wise to do so. Best of both worlds.




You can do the same with a resale Marriott legacy week. Doesn't have to be enrolled. No $8,000 qualifying fee. Just buy the week to use, trade, or rent like a VSN voluntary week.



Yes we still have the best of both worlds. I wouldn't be too concerned about availability. I was very skeptical in the beginning of the DC as well. I thought all these people buying DC points, which effectively were for mud weeks at ski resorts or summer in the desert, would create tremendous competition for prime weeks. However I learned, that much like Wyndham, this flexibility allowed people to take one bedrooms or studios instead of two bedrooms if they didn't need them. It allowed them to book multiple weeks in the off-season instead of their one week in prime season. This allows the owner to stretch his or her points. And it allows others who may have had an island view unit or an off-season unit to book during prime season or ocean front or whatever. Although I was skeptical in 2010 after our first DC booking we have elected points every year. We haven't used II since 2010. We have been 100% happy with availability. And I'm a teacher, so we have to travel prime time all the time.We have even purchased trust points.

I originally felt like many Marriott and VSN in owners have expressed in this thread, that I didn't want competition from VSN owners regarding access to the Marriott properties and that I didn't care much about the VSN properties. I guess I'm skeptical at first. I'll never go to Mexico and Marriott has great properties most of the other places VSN does. But I read somewhere here that VSN has superior ski resorts. If so, I'd definitely take advantage of that. Sounds like the Hawaii resorts are great. I'd take advantage of that. I'm sure there would be other benefits as well.

There are some Marriott owners who are not as happy with the DC as me and will never enroll, or have but will never elect. Each to his own. But I am 100% sure that, if VSN owners have the opportunity to join the DC (or comparable program) some/many, who are skeptical now, years down the road will wonder how they ever survived without the flexibility afforded by this option.

Deposit, request, wait and see? Cross my fingers? Pay an exchange fee? Pay a lockoff fee? An upgrade fee? Guest certificate fee? Never again. Transaction fee? Cancellation fee? Housekeeping credits? I don't know about VSN, but I do know II and Wyndham nickel and dime with this fee and that fee. None of this with Marriott... though you might pay more up front.

Yeah I would enroll if I could keep best of both worlds, the kicker is which deeds do i keep? Also, if I enroll my mandatory if that’s what they require, would I lose the ability to be in the SVN if they keep it? I’d hope it wouldn’t add any restrictions to the ownership, since it would be harder to “exit”. But I would def have to see how the whole thing shakes out.

 

[dioxide45]

Theoretically your two scenarios should balance each other out a bit; an increase in alternatives should increase people exchanging for DC points in order to visit new locations (i.e. more Aruba people drop their weeks into the DC in order to gain access to Mexico, St. John and Harborside while more Mexico, St. John and Harborside owners drop their weeks into the DC to gain access to DC resorts). However, what you point out is an inherent problem with the system: a) the DC trust owns no Aruba weeks (which you pointed out) and b) (more importantly) Aruba weeks were undervalued in DC points compared to their demand - Aruba owners are not incentivized sufficiently to turn their weeks in as in many cases they can't get enough points to travel to a comparable destination.

The problem with Aruba is the way that Marriott valued weeks when they rolled out DC back in 2010. Apparently they didn't really do it based on demand. They just looked at the last known sales price of the week and divided it by ten to get the DC point values. I am sure there were a few other factors involved, but many of the values, when you look at them, are pretty closely tied to the sales price of those weeks. They then setup the points chart to make a reservation based on demand. So Aruba didnt get very allocated very high point values.

This is where they have a problem with Vistana. Places like Westin Kierland Villas had a very high sales price as compared to Marriott resorts in the area. I think WKV Plat+ sold for close to $60K. The same is true for Lagunamar. That is much higher than Marriott sold Canyon Villas for. Vistana could command those higher prices because of how they setup their StarOption chart. A WKV Plat+ week could easily book in to a Hawaii week. So they were selling Hawaii in Scottsdale. Can they really give WKV week owners 5,000-6,000 DC points for their weeks when they would perhaps only charge 4,000 for the highest season week there? Not really because it would create a huge imbalance. People would convert to DC points and use those to book back in to WKV and have plenty of points leftover. Or they would book longer stays at WKV and people would effectively be locked out of booking back in because demand would be much higher than supply.

It will be intersting to see how they allocate these points and the vallues they assign to them along with how much they charge to book weeks at some of these properties.

 

[dioxide45]

As regards SVN, I think you're right on. People here generally seem to overestimate the protections they have. I generally think two things go into MVC's thinking (and honestly, to Vistana and ILG before them):

THere certainly are not a lot of protections. Vistana can change VSN or eliminate it at will. I think the challenge is the mandatory properties. If they simply say DC is the new VSN, you now have five resorts where resale weeks have an in to the DC program. We know Marriott has a huge hatred of resales. They lock out all post 6/20/2010 resale weeks from enrolling unless they pay uber cash to bring it in to the system with a new points purchase. They also charge huge initiation fees to resale DC points. So I can't see them just making DC the new VSN.

THey could eliminate VSN and start up DC and require Vistana owners to buy in or enroll to have access to the new system. This of course equals a third of your owner base that is POed. Or they could add an additional layer like many are speculating here. Only time will tell which path they follow.

 

[JIMinNC]

Yeah I would enroll if I could keep best of both worlds, the kicker is which deeds do i keep? Also, if I enroll my mandatory if that’s what they require, would I lose the ability to be in the SVN if they keep it? I’d hope it wouldn’t add any restrictions to the ownership, since it would be harder to “exit”. But I would def have to see how the whole thing shakes out.

Just remember, with the DC, enrollment DOES NOT mean you give up your deed. You still keep your deed and all the rights you have with that. The DC is an ADDED benefit on top of that. So, if they follow that same model going forward, then you will never have to give up your deed, and whatever system they devise will be on top of your basic deed rights.

 

[CPNY]

Just remember, with the DC, enrollment DOES NOT mean you give up your deed. You still keep your deed and all the rights you have with that. The DC is an ADDED benefit on top of that. So, if they follow that same model going forward, then you will never have to give up your deed, and whatever system they devise will be on top of your basic deed rights.

Well then, I’m all in if it’s a decent buy in! Just hope my resales I signed the contract with yesterday close in time

 

[JIMinNC]

Well then, I’m all in if it’s a decent buy in! Just hope my resales I signed the contract with yesterday close in time

Based on the earnings call comments from Steve Weisz, the implication was it will be 2020 before any integrated product form is unveiled. So you should be good.

 

[CPNY]

Based on the earnings call comments from Steve Weisz, the implication was it will be 2020 before any integrated product form is unveiled. So you should be good.

Tell Steve to push it toward the end of 2020. Let the program go smoothly. We don’t want a disaster in system issues before booking for summer vacations lol. Think bonvoy haha. Plus I’ll have more time to pick up more units.

 

[Ken555]

If renting points is really at or just over MF, then why would any of us buy more than a single week unless we were certain we wanted to use these resorts every year onward?


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[Fasttr]

If renting points is really at or just over MF, then why would any of us buy more than a single week unless we were certain we wanted to use these resorts every year onward?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You are certainly not the first to point this out. It does make you scratch your head. Only potential issue with renting the points as your sole strategy is if MVC, at some point, puts restrictions on point transfers like some other systems have. But that bridge can be crossed when/if it presents itself. I am surprised the point renters don’t band together and drive the rental price up a bit, but so far, it has yet to happen.

 

[dioxide45]

If renting points is really at or just over MF, then why would any of us buy more than a single week unless we were certain we wanted to use these resorts every year onward?


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Rented points do have other restrictions though. You can't bank them or move them out of the year they are for. So if you have to cancel your stay you could be SOL. Renting can be a pain sometimes, you have to go out and find a renter, trust enough to hand over the dough and hope they transfer the points. While the risk is low, there is the possibility of scams. VPE has some protections against that, but nothing is foolproof.

Also consider that some people have weeks where their blended MF is in the $0.30-$0.40 pp range. Yours could be too. So renting at $0.70 is a pretty big price to pay if you need a lot of points.

 

[Ken555]

You are certainly not the first to point this out. It does make you scratch your head. Only potential issue with renting the points as your sole strategy is if MVC, at some point, puts restrictions on point transfers like some other systems have. But that bridge can be crossed when/if it presents itself. I am surprised the point renters don’t band together and drive the rental price up a bit, but so far, it has yet to happen.

Is there an official place to rent points? Can a rental be completed between two owners independently? Is there oversight performed by Marriott on the renting of points?

I would suspect it was created primarily as a means to reimburse MFs during those years you cannot travel, so renting near MF cost makes sense from that perspective. Still, if it's as easy a transaction as this thread makes it seem to be it certainly should be another method for travel...and only require one week.

 

[vacationtime1]

Is there an official place to rent points? Can a rental be completed between two owners independently? Is there oversight performed by Marriott on the renting of points?

I would suspect it was created primarily as a means to reimburse MFs during those years you cannot travel, so renting near MF cost makes sense from that perspective. Still, if it's as easy a transaction as this thread makes it seem to be it certainly should be another method for travel...and only require one week.

See www.vacationpointexchange.com -- moderated by our own Steven Ting

 

[JIMinNC]

If renting points is really at or just over MF, then why would any of us buy more than a single week unless we were certain we wanted to use these resorts every year onward?


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Point rental costs are only slightly more than the MF cost of TRUST points. Trust Points MF is $0.58 and point rentals are listed in the $0.60 - $0.70 range.

The maintenance fees for enrolled weeks can be very different. The per point cost for an enrolled week depends on the MF of the week and how many points it yields. Here are some examples from toward the extremes, but there are many data points between these edge examples:

Grande Ocean, HHI, 2BR OF Platinum - MF of $1491 for 5075 points = $0.29
Maui Ocean Club 2BR OF Platinum - MF of $2296 for 6450 points = $0.37
Desert Springs Villas 2BR Blue - MF of $1627 for 1875 points = $0.87
Grande Ocean, HHI, 2BR OS Bronze - MF of $1491 for 775 points = $1.92

Obviously with GO Platinum and Maui, the high point allocation helps lower the cost per point, whereas with the Bronze Hilton Head Grande Ocean and Desert Springs examplea, its a Bronze (winter) week or Blue week worth few points, but it has the same maintenance fee as a peak season week, thus a high cost per point.

 

[Fasttr]

Is there an official place to rent points? Can a rental be completed between two owners independently? Is there oversight performed by Marriott on the renting of points?

I would suspect it was created primarily as a means to reimburse MFs during those years you cannot travel, so renting near MF cost makes sense from that perspective. Still, if it's as easy a transaction as this thread makes it seem to be it certainly should be another method for travel...and only require one week.

www.vacationpointexchange.com and www.ownertrades.com both run by TUGgers. Deal is totally between two individual parties. Only need MVC to transfer the points between accounts. They don’t care, or even ask, why you are transferring them.

 

[JIMinNC]

Is there an official place to rent points? Can a rental be completed between two owners independently? Is there oversight performed by Marriott on the renting of points?

I would suspect it was created primarily as a means to reimburse MFs during those years you cannot travel, so renting near MF cost makes sense from that perspective. Still, if it's as easy a transaction as this thread makes it seem to be it certainly should be another method for travel...and only require one week.

All of the point rentals on VPE are between owners independently. No oversight by Marriott. Totally a person-to-person marketplace.

Renting only requires one enrolled week or a base interest (1500 points) in Trust points.

 

[TheTimeTraveler]

.

You are certainly not the first to point this out. It does make you scratch your head. Only potential issue with renting the points as your sole strategy is if MVC, at some point, puts restrictions on point transfers like some other systems have. But that bridge can be crossed when/if it presents itself. I am surprised the point renters don’t band together and drive the rental price up a bit, but so far, it has yet to happen.

I think the rental price of points has not been driven too far up because I believe "a flood" of points are on the market (in my opinion).




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