Points reservations at properties closed due to hurricane damage

[Superchief]

They didn't have a problem creating precedents in HHI by moving people to different resorts.

Nor did they have a problem finding space for an Encore package at Ocean Pointe with only 30% of villas available.

 

[JIMinNC]

Nor did they have a problem finding space for an Encore package at Ocean Pointe with only 30% of villas available.

I think what we're seeing, sadly, is a by-product of the influence Wall Street has today on many publicly-held corporations like Marriott Vacations Worldwide. Sales of vacation ownership products represent the largest single revenue source for the company. Anything that disrupts that sales stream has a direct impact on revenue, earnings, and the expectations set by Wall Street analysts. MVW management knows that their stock price will get pummeled by a major revenue/earnings miss, so that knowledge probably causes them to want to do everything possible to preserve the sales flow, even if that means owners get displaced in favor of prime sales prospects. Since four institutional investors - Blackrock, Dimensional Fund Advisors, BAMCO, and Vanguard - collectively control 33.2% of the company, and the Marriott family controls another almost 17%, management can't afford to lose the support of these five stockholders/stockholder groups that own over half the company. While some companies choose to be more independent and not let Wall Street call all of the shots, it doesn't look like Marriott Vacations Worldwide is one of those companies.

 

[Superchief]

I think what we're seeing, sadly, is a by-product of the influence Wall Street has today on many publicly-held corporations like Marriott Vacations Worldwide. Sales of vacation ownership products represent the largest single revenue source for the company. Anything that disrupts that sales stream has a direct impact on revenue, earnings, and the expectations set by Wall Street analysts. MVW management knows that their stock price will get pummeled by a major revenue/earnings miss, so that knowledge probably causes them to want to do everything possible to preserve the sales flow, even if that means owners get displaced in favor of prime sales prospects. Since four institutional investors - Blackrock, Dimensional Fund Advisors, BAMCO, and Vanguard - collectively control 33.2% of the company, and the Marriott family controls another almost 17%, management can't afford to lose the support of these five stockholders/stockholder groups that own over half the company. While some companies choose to be more independent and not let Wall Street call all of the shots, it doesn't look like Marriott Vacations Worldwide is one of those companies.

While this is true, I expect that a large proportion of potential new owners come from owner referrals. If MVC continues to anger its owners, there will be long term profit implications. I've provided MVC with several referrals over the years but will never do it again. The greatest problem with Wall Street is that management focuses only on short term profits at the expense of maintaining customer and employee loyalty. That is why several large companies have lost their leadership positions in the industry.

 

[MALC9990]

Whilst I am not directly affected by this issue. I am at present planning a DC (Enrolled) points reservation at a Caribbean resort for late 2018. I am now reconsidering that plan. It seems to me that the obvious reaction to this unacceptable action by MVC is for owners to avoid using DC points at Caribbean, Floridian and east cost MVC resorts at any time in the later half of the year. Indeed we might all want to consider not booking at these resorts at all. If I book a resort in the Caribbean for late 2018 now, the points are effectively gone. If the resort cancels due to a hurricane less than 60 days before my check in date, then I am totally stuffed.

I think I will bank all these points - giving me 2019 and 2020 to use them and look at an early spring reservation in the Caribbean instead.

 

[MALC9990]

While this is true, I expect that a large proportion of potential new owners come from owner referrals. If MVC continues to anger its owners, there will be long term profit implications. I've provided MVC with several referrals over the years but will never do it again. The greatest problem with Wall Street is that management focuses only on short term profits at the expense of maintaining customer and employee loyalty. That is why several large companies have lost their leadership positions in the industry.

I stopped doing referrals as soon as I found TUG and resales. Now I refer friends to resale not MVC

 

[klpca]

Whilst I am not directly affected by this issue. I am at present planning a DC (Enrolled) points reservation at a Caribbean resort for late 2018. I am now reconsidering that plan. It seems to me that the obvious reaction to this unacceptable action by MVC is for owners to avoid using DC points at Caribbean, Floridian and east cost MVC resorts at any time in the later half of the year. Indeed we might all want to consider not booking at these resorts at all. If I book a resort in the Caribbean for late 2018 now, the points are effectively gone. If the resort cancels due to a hurricane less than 60 days before my check in date, then I am totally stuffed.

I think I will bank all these points - giving me 2019 and 2020 to use them and look at an early spring reservation in the Caribbean instead.

I cannot fault your logic here. The way Marriott has handled this has been poor compared to Vistana. Even the people who had their Interval exchanges cancelled received a replacement week.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

It makes me wonder how Marriott Vacation Club is going to handle the next recession, when timeshares aren't selling. It is <very> cyclical business, after all.

 

[GregT]

I received a very pleasant response reaffirming the policy, so the issue is confirmed and closed. It really is a shoddy way to treat owners, but then again, so is skimming and junk fees on Trust Point resales. So much for $2,000 in MFs....

Best,

Greg

 

[windje2000]

I received a very pleasant response reaffirming the policy, so the issue is confirmed and closed. It really is a shoddy way to treat owners, but then again, so is skimming and junk fees on Trust Point resales. So much for $2,000 in MFs....

Best,

Greg

Greg, welcome to my world. You are being treated no differently than weeks owners with lost reservations at storm damaged resorts. Arguably you are being treated better; you got back some restricted points, which in your case may well have little or no utility. I have nothing at all to show for 3 weeks of HHI maintenance fees.

Live and learn - people (like me) with hurricane season reservations in hurricane prone locations should buy insurance, although the 60 day rule in your case may have allowed the insuror to avoid paying your claim.

Wonder if the management at Vistana sees storm risk as equivalent to business interruption, something the organization insures against, at what would likely be hugely lower premiums than the individual TravlX policies. Something MVC might want to think about.

 

[dioxide45]

This may be a good reason to try to used borrowed points for any reservations that fall after the banking deadline. Then bank any points from the current use year. At least if you use borrowed points, a cancellation would result in the points going back to their use year, albeit restricted. The way it is for Greg now is that he has the points back, restricted to a holding account, but they being 2017 points, they are only good till the 12/31/2017. If one were to use 2018 borrowed points, at least they would be good till 12/31/2018. Live and learn I suppose.

 

[KarenP]

When Marriott and II canceled our Oct. 1-8 reservation at Ocean Pointe for two 2-bedroom units, I was initially given one replacement week that could only look out approximately 60 days. Fortunately, I was able to eplus trade our 2 weeks to Orlando Harbor Lake, but only to two studios. So I bought two Getaway studios so we'd still have four bedrooms. Two days before our trip, two 2-bedroom units at Harbor Lake appeared in my account, so I had four studios and two 2-bedrooms for our trip. I have filed an insurance claim for the airfare increase and the cost of the Getaways and should hear back soon. Also, when I returned from our trip, the replacement week no longer had the 60 day restriction and I booked a Marriott Grand Chateau week in April! I have no idea how all this happened, but thought I'd let others know what happened in my case.

 

[Fasttr]

I received a very pleasant response reaffirming the policy, so the issue is confirmed and closed. It really is a shoddy way to treat owners, but then again, so is skimming and junk fees on Trust Point resales. So much for $2,000 in MFs....

Best,

Greg

Well....if nothing else, this provides a really nice response to use as to why we are not interested in more points as we collect our MR points and head out the door during our next sales presentation.

"Sorry, Mr. MVC Salesperson, I cannot possibly use any more points because we like to use them in HHI, FL and the Caribbean and the way MVC handled MVC Mandated point ressie cancellations in the wake of the hurricane makes using points for my travels during that time of the year much too risky of a proposition, so I certainly don't need any more...thank you."

"Use the MVC Travel Insurance you say....sorry, that wouldn't work either for ressie's MVC cancels outside of 30 days of the weather event per the rules governing the policy that MVC endorses "

 

[windje2000]

Well....if nothing else, this provides a really nice response to use as to why we are not interested in more points as we collect our MR points and head out the door during our next sales presentation.

"Sorry, Mr. MVC Salesperson, I cannot possibly use any more points because we like to use them in HHI, FL and the Caribbean and the way MVC handled MVC Mandated point ressie cancellations in the wake of the hurricane makes using points for my travels during that time of the year much too risky of a proposition, so I certainly don't need any more...thank you."

"Use the MVC Travel Insurance you say....sorry, that wouldn't work either for ressie's MVC cancels outside of 30 days of the weather event per the rules governing the policy that MVC endorses "

I agree. I haven't been to a sales presentation since 2007. Wasn't interested in buying; wasn't interested in wasting the time of a salesperson.

That . . . has now changed.

 

[kds4]

I received a very pleasant response reaffirming the policy, so the issue is confirmed and closed. It really is a shoddy way to treat owners, but then again, so is skimming and junk fees on Trust Point resales. So much for $2,000 in MFs....

Best,

Greg

Well, if there is nothing you can personally use before 12/31, I would try for the best reservations available (perhaps a holiday period), and put them up for rent to try and recover as much of your MFs as possible.

 

[Marathoner]

In his other post, @JIMinNC stated that his II exchange into HHI being cancelled meant that he is less likely to use II going forward. After reading that thread and this one, I have decided that I will exchange into II more with my weeks and not elect to use points for my enrolled weeks. There is zero chance that I will buy trust points (even resale) now that I have seen Marriott's customer policy in action. When unusual circumstances occur, some people and companies rise to the occasion and engender more respect. Sadly, others like MVC go the other way and lose people's respect.

 

[GregT]

Well....if nothing else, this provides a really nice response to use as to why we are not interested in more points as we collect our MR points and head out the door during our next sales presentation.

"Sorry, Mr. MVC Salesperson, I cannot possibly use any more points because we like to use them in HHI, FL and the Caribbean and the way MVC handled MVC Mandated point ressie cancellations in the wake of the hurricane makes using points for my travels during that time of the year much too risky of a proposition, so I certainly don't need any more...thank you."

"Use the MVC Travel Insurance you say....sorry, that wouldn't work either for ressie's MVC cancels outside of 30 days of the weather event per the rules governing the policy that MVC endorses "

I love this response. I suggest we add it to the Sticky. “Possible responses to exit sales presentation”

Best.

Greg

 

[Jeffrey]

While I do have empathy for the affected resorts, owners and reservations, I do think it is correct that the points for the cancelled reservations are restricted in their usage.

What I definitely find incorrect is that any Introductory or Encore package reservations were upheld, transferred, honored or prioritized over owner reservations. These should have been the first reservations to have been cancelled on short notice !
Unfortunately this reflects the corporate greed these days. If the „hit“ could have been mitigated in any way, it should have been a corporate hit and not that of a loyal customer. The corporate impact on profits is diluted and marginal in comparison to the monetary implications on the individual families when considering vacation budgets in relation to annual income. Today we are more focused on profits, reporting successes and keeping the shareholders happy.

Objectively, if I make a reservation in an area prone to hurricanes and then also during the hurricane season, I would personally have to take the responsibility and risk for this decision. Either I accept to carry this risk myself or take out an insurance to cover this risk.

As stated above, I do think it is correct that the points are limited in their usage....at least they still have their points.
Imagine that all of these cancelled points are unrestricted and flooded into the years 2018 / 2019 / 2020.... Yes, there would definitely be a major ripple with banked points and ALL OWNERS would then be impacted for the next couple of years and have to take the hit with even more limitations with regards to availability and utilization of their points. I do not think this is fair for those not directly impacted.
If the risks were covered, no owners would have to take the hit. Why should others be impacted if I decide to not cover the risks of my decisions?

One might argue that those that have bought directly into the diluted points system are carrying a heavier collective or community burden that the deeded weeks owner... still unfair.

In any case, I hope all impacted individuals find a solution going forward and I would wish that Corporate would step up and take the high road !

 

[bizaro86]

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it seems like the entity that would be least affected by absorbing the lost points inventory would be MVC via the skim.

 

[JIMinNC]

In his other post, @JIMinNC stated that his II exchange into HHI being cancelled meant that he is less likely to use II going forward. After reading that thread and this one, I have decided that I will exchange into II more with my weeks and not elect to use points for my enrolled weeks. There is zero chance that I will buy trust points (even resale) now that I have seen Marriott's customer policy in action. When unusual circumstances occur, some people and companies rise to the occasion and engender more respect. Sadly, others like MVC go the other way and lose people's respect.

After reading GregT's experience, I might have to modify my perspective that I expressed after our HHI situation. I'm still not a big fan of trading for many other reasons, but we certainly got more accommodation from II than GregT got from MVC.

And by the way, we just received a confirmation overnight that our replacement week we received from II after the HHI cancellation had matched for a 2BR at Marriott's Desert Springs Villas I for next November. Thanks to Mark DelCampo and II, we came out reasonably OK.

 

[GregT]

Marriott's argument that they don't have the inventory is suspect. Because of the skim, there will always be more inventory available than points needed to book the same inventory. Marriott even skims themselves when they contribute points to the Trust.

So, a week that requires 4,000 points to book, there are only ~3,700 Elected Points issued to book it. If that owner bought 2,000 Trust Points, well, there were 2,200 points allocated to the week in the Trust that supports those underlying Trust Points. So there are "partial weeks" available everytime someone decides to book a reservation with points.

Which means there is more inventory then there are points, a lot more inventory. How many enrolled weeks are there? 400,000? If every week were redeemed for points (which they aren't), that would mean there would be ~28,000 excess weeks every year available from skimming alone (we estimated an average skim of 7% -- personally, my Maui Ocean 3BR prime June weeks are skimmed 13%).

Marriott took the easy road and is enforcing their interpretation of the Exchange Procedures, that they can cancel my reservation and have no obligation.

I suspect they decided because a Week owner lost their week, and there is no way to compensate that week owner (because there isn't an excess of weeks), then point owners should not get special treatment, or the week owners would object. As others have pointed out, at least I have restricted points.

It sure would be nice to be talking about owner-friendly actions by Marriott. But today, I love my HGVC and Starwood point systems!!!

Best,

Greg

 

[Bunk]

This issue is not unique to Marriott and is not limited to points. The question is what are the rights and obligations of the Unit Owner and the HOA that manages the timeshare when the units are not available. This could arise from a problem affecting a small number of units (e.g., a fire in one building) or an act of God, such as a hurricane, that affects a lot of units.

In order to decide what is appropriate and/or equitable, it might be helpful to look at the following issues.

What authority does the HOA have to extend the time to use the expiring weeks/points? In other words, let’s say your right to use the week/points expires on December 31, 2017. Do the by-laws or governing documents give the HOA the right to extend them for cause? (Otherwise, they might have to amend them to permit this to happen).

Assuming that the HOA has the right to extend the time of usage, is it equitable to do so? That issue depends on a number of facts, including:

(i) How many owners have had their reservations cancelled;

(ii) Do we extend the expiration date of usage for owners that haven’t yet made a reservation, but are now also impacted because the supply of available units has been curtailed;

(iii) Do we consider the failure of the owners to obtain travel insurance, especially for travel during hurricane season (recognizing that in MVC’s case, it induced owners to buy travel insurance that might not cover this loss);

(iv) How much money will the sponsor lose because its opportunity to sell the product to “outside” visitors (such as those who are exchanging into the system through Interval or Encore package visitors) has been curtailed? (In other words, is the sponsor more likely to sell to people other than those who have already bought into the particular timeshare

(v) Is there a reason to treat point owners differently than weeks owners; and

(vi) How much inventory is affected, and if the right to book is extended to another usage period, how will that affect the rights of those who have the right to book for that future usage period when they now have to compete with more people for space? I don’t consider this to be a trivial issue. In MVC’s case, I would like to know how many weeks/points Marriott would have to extend, and over what period of time would they be extended. I recognize that it might not be fair to extend the Irma and Maria victims terms into 2019 if that means that the owners of the right to book in 2019 will find their choices significantly curtailed. I would like to think the MVC system is big enough to absorb these excess points/weeks, but I am not sure that is the case. We also own in Tradewinds, which is a points system where owners buy points for catamaran usage that expire within a specific number of years. (I think it’s 12 years). Tradewinds has suffered a lot of damage as a result of the hurricanes. Some boats sustained serious damages, some cruises were cancelled and two bases were destroyed and have to be moved/rebuilt. In addition, some members are having major problems booking flights to the affected areas at reasonable prices. In our case, we have a lot of points that expire on December 31, 2018. It would be great if Tradewinds extended us for an extra year or to. But that might not be fair to the owners whose points expire on December 31, 2019, when they now have to compete with more people to book trips within a short period. And it might not be fair to Tradewinds, whose business model includes booking new-timers through RCI, thus acquiring the opportunity to induce them to join the system. I know that Marriott has a lot more inventory than Tradewinds, and is able to better absorb the rolled over points, but suggest that this issue still has to be addressed.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Why is this an issue now? DC has been around since 2010. Why wasn't the terms and conditions of a Act Of God thought out and put in the governing docs?

And yes, there is slack in the system. There has to be, or else MVC couldn't be selling points. AFAIK, over selling is not permitted in the governing docs.

Follow the money. . .

 

[Superchief]

After reading GregT's experience, I might have to modify my perspective that I expressed after our HHI situation. I'm still not a big fan of trading for many other reasons, but we certainly got more accommodation from II than GregT got from MVC.

And by the way, we just received a confirmation overnight that our replacement week we received from II after the HHI cancellation had matched for a 2BR at Marriott's Desert Springs Villas I for next November. Thanks to Mark DelCampo and II, we came out reasonably OK.

Also thanks to Mark, I was just confirmed into Mountainside next Labor Day week for my extended deposit. MVC did nothing and the only way I was able to get useful information about the status of Ocean Pointe was by calling the GM, since I am an owner at the resort. From what I've read on the OP owners site, even their employees are very frustrated with actions by MVC corporate. I am saving my emails from my exchanges with MVC customer care to be used as an example for future case studies regarding how not to treat your most loyal customers (who are actually owners of the assets that fund your salaries).

 

[kds4]

Marriott's argument that they don't have the inventory is suspect. Because of the skim, there will always be more inventory available than points needed to book the same inventory. Marriott even skims themselves when they contribute points to the Trust.

So, a week that requires 4,000 points to book, there are only ~3,700 Elected Points issued to book it. If that owner bought 2,000 Trust Points, well, there were 2,200 points allocated to the week in the Trust that supports those underlying Trust Points. So there are "partial weeks" available everytime someone decides to book a reservation with points.

Which means there is more inventory then there are points, a lot more inventory. How many enrolled weeks are there? 400,000? If every week were redeemed for points (which they aren't), that would mean there would be ~28,000 excess weeks every year available from skimming alone (we estimated an average skim of 7% -- personally, my Maui Ocean 3BR prime June weeks are skimmed 13%).

Marriott took the easy road and is enforcing their interpretation of the Exchange Procedures, that they can cancel my reservation and have no obligation.

I suspect they decided because a Week owner lost their week, and there is no way to compensate that week owner (because there isn't an excess of weeks), then point owners should not get special treatment, or the week owners would object. As others have pointed out, at least I have restricted points.

It sure would be nice to be talking about owner-friendly actions by Marriott. But today, I love my HGVC and Starwood point systems!!!

Best,

Greg

I agree. Over the 27 years that I have been a Marriott Hotels/Timeshare customer and owner, I've spent most of my travel related discussions talking to others about all of the things Marriott does right from a business model perspective, consistently high product quality, as well as their commitment to customer care and respect for customer loyalty. Unfortunately, on that last topic I haven't had much to speak of lately. I sure hope that changes.

 

[BocaBoy]

I have owned Marriott timeshares since 1987. In those 30 years, I thought the worst period ever for customer service was the 3-4 years immediately preceding the introduction of the Destinations Club. Then it improved greatly (sales presentations of the now fungible points product aside), but it now looks like it is regressing again.