Flagged for no more points purchases

[Richelle]

Now you know three. Well before the 2016 suspensions, I was told the same thing

Did they explain why? Did you have too many points?


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[ilya]

Did they explain why? Did you have too many points?


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I think Ron had 30 million points and credit pooled . I was flagged as well after the "Great Audit".. I was at many resorts and was not asked for an update.. It wasn't until I made a same day reservation , was asked for an update, probably by mistake .. Once I got to the meeting and they tried to sell me points , which I was considering, they ran it through and I was denied.. Gold VIP status. .Never gave anything in to Ovations..

 

[bendadin]

I think Ron had 30 million points and credit pooled . I was flagged as well after the "Great Audit".. I was at many resorts and was not asked for an update.. It wasn't until I made a same day reservation , was asked for an update, probably by mistake .. Once I got to the meeting and they tried to sell me points , which I was considering, they ran it through and I was denied.. Gold VIP status. .Never gave anything in to Ovations..

Are you still banned?

 

[HitchHiker71]

We are heading to Kingsgate this coming weekend, so if it has anything to do with the telesales rep that we all used collectively that was known on TUG...I will know heading into this weekend when we check in late Friday night. I will post back to this thread with an update either Friday night or sometime over the weekend if this thread doesn't uncover the root cause prior to that time.

 

[ronparise]

Did they explain why? Did you have too many points?


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no explanation...except that the note was from the legal department. At least thats what the salesman said

I dont remember how many points I had at the time, but i never had more than 30 million From 2010 to 2014 I built my accounts to 30 million. After that I was selling and buying about 20 million a year, until august of 2016 when Wyndham finally took me out. at that point I had 10 million points in the accounts and another 10 million in transfer

I had made a deal somewhere along the way to convert several weeks at the Pahio resorts to VIP eligible points, It cost me $12000 cash and $12000 was financed. Those were my first two Platinum accounts and they gave me 50% discounts and upgrades on all my reservations. Thats when my rental 'business' really took off/ I think it was that deal that woke someone up at Wyndham and caused them to ban me from future purchases

I learned of the ban when I was trying to build another VIP account based on the PIC program. I had purchased a couple of 3 bedroom (RCI) red weeks to PIC, and needed another 500k developer purchased points for another Platinum account. I was working with a corporate sales person who was showing me foreclosed accounts they were selling for the remaining loan balance. I hadnt heard from her in a while so I called...she had left the company and a new guy told me I was banned. It didnt matter, because shortly thereafter I figured out how to become VIP with all resale contracts.

 

[Richelle]

no explanation...except that the note was from the legal department. At least thats what the salesman said

I dont remember how many points I had at the time, but i never had more than 30 million From 2010 to 2014 I built my accounts to 30 million. After that I was selling and buying about 20 million a year, until august of 2016 when Wyndham finally took me out. at that point I had 10 million points in the accounts and another 10 million in transfer

I had made a deal somewhere along the way to convert several weeks at the Pahio resorts to VIP eligible points, It cost me $12000 cash and $12000 was financed. Those were my first two Platinum accounts and they gave me 50% discounts and upgrades on all my reservations. Thats when my rental 'business' really took off/ I think it was that deal that woke someone up at Wyndham and caused them to ban me from future purchases

I learned of the ban when I was trying to build another VIP account based on the PIC program. I had purchased a couple of 3 bedroom (RCI) red weeks to PIC, and needed another 500k developer purchased points for another Platinum account. I was working with a corporate sales person who was showing me foreclosed accounts they were selling for the remaining loan balance. I hadnt heard from her in a while so I called...she had left the company and a new guy told me I was banned. It didnt matter, because shortly thereafter I figured out how to become VIP with all resale contracts.

I think I learned how you may have done that. “Think” being the key word. Do you know if they closed that loop hole? If so, it’s not what I’m thinking.


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[am1]

I think I learned how you may have done that. “Think” being the key word. Do you know if they closed that loop hole? If so, it’s not what I’m thinking.


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I fell into the el cid route. I purchased them at first because they were cheap with low fees. No care that they were rtu. For whatever reason they showed as retail. Not until the guest fees and later the 10 nightly unit that I had a need for more but at that point I chose not to buy.

 

[ecwinch]

I guess there are two aspects to this.

Does Wyndham have the right to not sell to someone? There I think the answer is - it depends on the reason. If I really wanted to buy points, I would probably be making some noise alleging discrimination under the Fair Housing Act. Maybe even filing a complaint. At worst it probably results in them disclosing the reason.

The second part is a little more nuanced. Since you have a price lock - which you effectively cannot exercise - you could allege breach of contract.

 

[Braindead]

We are heading to Kingsgate this coming weekend, so if it has anything to do with the telesales rep that we all used collectively that was known on TUG...I will know heading into this weekend when we check in late Friday night. I will post back to this thread with an update either Friday night or sometime over the weekend if this thread doesn't uncover the root cause prior to that time.

Even if you can purchase additional points it really doesn’t give us an answer. The 2016 audit freeze out made no sense as I recall some owners had multiple accounts. Some of those owners accounts were frozen while some of the accounts weren’t.

 

[55plus]

Can Wyndham, a publicly traded company refuse service, in this case sell points, to someone who financially qualifies?

 

[Richelle]

Can Wyndham, a publicly traded company refuse service, in this case sell points, to someone who financially qualifies?

I think they have the right to refuse service to anyone.


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[ronparise]

I think I learned how you may have done that. “Think” being the key word. Do you know if they closed that loop hole? If so, it’s not what I’m thinking.


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Im pretty sure that they did close the loophole,
Another owner and I both had VIP accounts and we didnt understand why. We opened up our accounts to eachother and looked for anything that we had in common that might explain it. our best guess was that contract numbers that began with 00080 would retain their VIP eligibility even when purchased on the secondary market... To test our theory we both started buying these 00080 contracts, and we were both able to make VIP contracts from ebay sales

00080 is the prefix for affiliate contracts, Angel Fire, certain El Cid and others, listed in the directory. Also a lot of the Pahio resorts carry the 00080 prefix and they would count toward VIP too. I believe that Wyndham was a sales agent for Pahio, before they bought the company and the contracts they sold were affiliate contracts

In any case I was able to build 3 Platinum contracts with these 00080 contracts purchased on the secondary market

When Wyndham suspended my accounts all they knew is that I had "too many" points in reservations in my accounts... In our discussions they wanted to know how I could have 90 million points in reservations but only own contracts that generated 10 million points a year....so I told them what I was doing. There were three things that really upset them, 1) my use if the credit pool, 2) I sold them contracts stripped of points through one of their approved brokers, 3) That I was VIP and enjoyed 50% discounts on all my reservations without ever buying from the developer. (actually my first two VIP accounts required small developer purchases, (63000 points each) My last three Platinum accounts were all done with nothing but resale)

To my knowledge all three loopholes have been closed. No more credit pool, no more sales of stripped contracts to anyone and no more "free" VIP

Sorry

 

[ronparise]

I think they have the right to refuse service to anyone.


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It dosent make any difference, whether they have the right or not. I didnt think they had a right to suspend my accounts and force me out of the club... Basically they dared me to sue them. I didnt have the money or inclination to do that...It was like negotiating with Tony Soprano..so I settled, on their terms

my point is even if you have the right, It you probably dont have the cash to fight for it

 

[Richelle]

00080 is the prefix for affiliate contracts, Angel Fire, certain El Cid and others, listed in the directory. Also a lot of the Pahio resorts carry the 00080 prefix and they would count toward VIP too. I believe that Wyndham was a sales agent for Pahio, before they bought the company and the contracts they sold were affiliate contracts

In any case I was able to build 3 Platinum contracts with these 00080 contracts purchased on the secondary market

Sorry

I know of a contract for sale on eBay that has that prefix. Half tempted to try it because it has lower MF as well.


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[am1]

It dosent make any difference, whether they have the right or not. I didnt think they had a right to suspend my accounts and force me out of the club... Basically they dared me to sue them. I didnt have the money or inclination to do that...It was like negotiating with Tony Soprano..so I settled, on their terms

my point is even if you have the right, It you probably dont have the cash to fight for it

I'm sure they have the right in these cases. They would not based on disrimination of protected classes or whatever the official term is in that regard.

 

[ronparise]

I know of a contract for sale on eBay that has that prefix. Half tempted to try it because it has lower MF as well.


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are you already silver or gold vip?

 

[Richelle]

are you already silver or gold vip?

Gold. Within spitting distance of platinum.


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[ronparise]

Gold. Within spitting distance of platinum.


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so that one contract may push you over the edge... If you do it Id be interested to know what happens

 

[Richelle]

I am waiting to hear back from a certain Tugger. I knew he was looking at buying more points, so I showed him this auction. This was before you told me about the 0008 prefix. If he wants to buy it, I'll let him have it. If not, I'll grab it.

 

[DRIless]

Nothing to be sorry about, it's great fun to find the loopholes and exploit them, but they are loopholes and when found they get closed.

You keep saying "I was VIP and enjoyed 50% discounts on all my reservations." Do you mean ALL reservations or those in the <60day window?

Im pretty sure that they did close the loophole,
Another owner and I both had VIP accounts and we didnt understand why. We opened up our accounts to eachother and looked for anything that we had in common that might explain it. our best guess was that contract numbers that began with 00080 would retain their VIP eligibility even when purchased on the secondary market... To test our theory we both started buying these 00080 contracts, and we were both able to make VIP contracts from ebay sales

00080 is the prefix for affiliate contracts, Angel Fire, certain El Cid and others, listed in the directory. Also a lot of the Pahio resorts carry the 00080 prefix and they would count toward VIP too. I believe that Wyndham was a sales agent for Pahio, before they bought the company and the contracts they sold were affiliate contracts

In any case I was able to build 3 Platinum contracts with these 00080 contracts purchased on the secondary market

When Wyndham suspended my accounts all they knew is that I had "too many" points in reservations in my accounts... In our discussions they wanted to know how I could have 90 million points in reservations but only own contracts that generated 10 million points a year....so I told them what I was doing. There were three things that really upset them, 1) my use if the credit pool, 2) I sold them contracts stripped of points through one of their approved brokers, 3) That I was VIP and enjoyed 50% discounts on all my reservations without ever buying from the developer. (actually my first two VIP accounts required small developer purchases, (63000 points each) My last three Platinum accounts were all done with nothing but resale)

To my knowledge all three loopholes have been closed. No more credit pool, no more sales of stripped contracts to anyone and no more "free" VIP

Sorry

 

[ecwinch]

Nothing to be sorry about, it's great fun to find the loopholes and exploit them, but they are loopholes and when found they get closed.

You keep saying "I was VIP and enjoyed 50% discounts on all my reservations." Do you mean ALL reservations or those in the <60day window?

With cancel/rebook it was pretty easy to get the 50% discount on everything, and usually easy to rebook the smallest unit and upgrade it to the largest unit. It just required enough pts to hold the desired largest unit and smallest unit. The sales people even had a name for it - “creating your own inventory”.

It also why credit pooling was so popular. It needed lots of points to work, so pulling forward future points was key.

I personally think Wyndham was willing to turn a blind eye to it, until they started getting stripped contracts back via Ovations - and realized all the machinations placed them at risk of having the regulators step in and ask if the program was not “out of trust” - ie that Wyndham owed the Trust the points for all these loopholes in the developer programs.

 

[ronparise]

Nothing to be sorry about, it's great fun to find the loopholes and exploit them, but they are loopholes and when found they get closed.

You keep saying "I was VIP and enjoyed 50% discounts on all my reservations." Do you mean ALL reservations or those in the <60day window?

yes, all reservations, yes in the 60 day window

We would make high value reservations at the 10 month or 13 month mark. hold them until within the 60 day window, cancel and immediately rebook...

My favorite technique was to makeone studio reservation and as many 1 bedrooms as possible at 13 months for Mardi Gras (La Belle Maison had only a few 2 bedrooms...so I didnt even try for them

Then at 60 days cancel the studio and rebook at 50% discount, Then cancel a one bedroom and upgrade the studio into it; then rebook the studio
and again and again and again

the end result was multiple one bedrooms at the half the studio rate and one studio at half price


At other resorts it was possible to get 3 bedroom units at half the studio or one bedroom rate

 

[breezez]

I guess there are two aspects to this.

Does Wyndham have the right to not sell to someone? There I think the answer is - it depends on the reason. If I really wanted to buy points, I would probably be making some noise alleging discrimination under the Fair Housing Act. Maybe even filing a complaint. At worst it probably results in them disclosing the reason.

The second part is a little more nuanced. Since you have a price lock - which you effectively cannot exercise - you could allege breach of contract.

Not sure the discrimination under the fair housing act would work unless you are buying deeded property. If you are just buying non deed points then you are buying a right to use I would surmise and while I am by no means a lawyer I doubt this would be covered under that act.

 

[ecwinch]

Not sure the discrimination under the fair housing act would work unless you are buying deeded property. If you are just buying non deed points then you are buying a right to use I would surmise and while I am by no means a lawyer I doubt this would be covered under that act.

Actually the FHA has taken a fairly broad view of "housing" and when/where their authority extends. It was at the center point of CA resorts not being able to designate "adult-only" pool hours a few years back.

 

[ronparise]

With cancel/rebook it was pretty easy to get the 50% discount on everything, and usually easy to rebook the smallest unit and upgrade it to the largest unit. It just required enough pts to hold the desired largest unit and smallest unit. The sales people even had a name for it - “creating your own inventory”.

It also why credit pooling was so popular. It needed lots of points to work, so pulling forward future points was key.

I personally think Wyndham was willing to turn a blind eye to it, until they started getting stripped contracts back via Ovations - and realized all the machinations placed them at risk of having the regulators step in and ask if the program was not “out of trust” - ie that Wyndham owed the Trust the points for all these loopholes in the developer programs.

I don’t think Ovation ever allowed for stripped contracts

They didn’t know they were buying stripped contracts back until I told them. This was a classic case of silo management

Accounts got suspended because they had too many points. And there were a lot of different explanations for the discrepancy Very few of the accounts that were suspended were suspended due to credit pooling and the sale of stripped contracts. there just weren't many selling back to wyndham and only a small number of us were selling stripped contracts

The biggest thing I believe was that you could often cancel a reservation get the points back and the next day the reservation was back too. You could cancel a reservations multiple times createing a ton of points

And there were guys that were using the multiple use year loophole and rolling points forward each year

And at least one guy I met had purchased millions and millions of points from other owners when that was ok to do