Disrupting Resale Timeshare Industry

[vice]

Good luck!

IMO this is a solution in search of a (nonexistent) problem.

I agree you are wasting your time on something that would be redundant to the actual deed recorded in the county that would have to be checked and recorded with new owners info anyway. For newer points based systems that you are just buying points that have a beneficial interest in a trust of bundled deeds owned by the trust and controlled by the developers, the Marriotts, Wyndhams, and Bluegreens are the ones that actually handle the ownership change so they won't care about or acknowledge your blockchain ledger. The typical timeshare owner is only going to buy and sell a few times in their lifetime, so even if you developed a great blockchain solution that was accepted, it would not be highly utilized or even heard of by the general public.

@kaio

The exchange idea to create an alternative RCI and II may have legs but needs a lot more definition on the value propositions.

Good luck!

The exchange and rental market it where I see opportunity. I could see blockchain replacing the aging confirmation number system in the next 10 years, and thus making exchanges and rentals much more secure and eliminate the possibility of showing up for your vacation with a bogus reservation that you thought you had rented or exchanged. Plus, renting or exchanging is something most travelers are going to do every few years or so rather than just a few times in their lifetime.

 

[brianfox]

Welcome to "Shark Tank: TUG Edition"...

This sounds like research gathering for a future crowdfunding. What's in it for you, because you never answered DK3's Q?

Don't be under any allusions that blockchain would eliminate fraud and scams. This would simply be a new avenue for scammers to exploit. The scam is collecting money for a resource/service they have no intention of delivering. "Blockchain" being simply a word used in the text of the scam to provide legitimacy.

 

[kaio]

Aside from the fact that each jurisdiction is unique with regards to how deeds are registered, documentation required and by whom there is not really a profitability model in brokerage beyond what already exists today. The success of AirBnB, Uber, Lyft, Thumbtack are that the barriers to entry for both users and providers are exceedingly low. Plus continued investor funds are a lifeline. Billions have been invested in most of these platforms with deep losses for many quarters/years. In the case of timeshares this is obviously not the case. Regardless of blockchain.

Replacing a jurisdiction legal recording of deeds with a third party blockchain appears a bit unrealistic. Each jurisdiction would require legislation on the applicable legal code. That does not seem likely to me.

Not to mention that the developers are multibillion dollar corporations with tremendous vested interests. Once they figure out that people are exploiting a loophole they typically direct their attorneys to find ways to shut down these loopholes very aggressively. Or alternatively: in the case of the resale market: by setting up their own deed back programs such as Wyndham Ovation.

Plus digital recording of deeds is already in existence apparently: https://simplifile.com. I still fail to see how speeding up / simplifying the recording of deeds does anything to increase supply and/or demand of resales. Plus recording a title is separate from developer speed of processing/adjudication of ROFR on a resale transaction.

Thanks for the words. Uber and Lyft aren't profitable; they're still both running negative. Funny you mention Thumbtack though. There does not need to be a "profitability" model and likely will not be of any kind unless outside investment took over.

The jurisiction requirement is already being solved in courts by other industries paving the way (real estate)... e-recording availability is a stepping stone to the technology; and could be incorporated and/or replaced (in decades if completely changed to ledgered on the blockchain to replace county court records)...

When attorneys for these corps try to find ways to shut down industry loopholes; they consult the experts that find the loopholes, and i'm tech expert who finds them for them, and consults the attorney through prosecution, and even sits in mediation if needed as i'm the one that finds the loopholes, or creates the loopholes and resolves the loopholes... per se.. they cannot stop first to market with a valid utility of evolved technology... Deedbacks are great for owners looking to get out and would only help the use case. I will say that if a developer could; they wouldn't hesitate to pay a large income to try and obtain working infrastructure themselves to bury the potential adaptation or delay it... but it's not wanted at the developer level imo any time in the initial phases..

 

[AndySamuels]

Good luck and let us know how this all plays out.

 

[kaio]

Welcome to "Shark Tank: TUG Edition"...

This sounds like research gathering for a future crowdfunding. What's in it for you, because you never answered DK3's Q?

Don't be under any allusions that blockchain would eliminate fraud and scams. This would simply be a new avenue for scammers to exploit. The scam is collecting money for a resource/service they have no intention of delivering. "Blockchain" being simply a word used in the text of the scam to provide legitimacy.

I'll have to circle back to DK3's questions; must have missed them. Allusions? i'm creating how technology works, not trying to understand how it works.. i already understand how timeshare fraud and scams work. No crowd funding is needed. I can make more in a day than people make in a year+ on other things I am an expert in. Please don't assume scams will take over and become a new resource and associate this with some new avenue for upfront fee companies.. owners need to be progressive thinkers to change for the better... aint noone talking about computer antivirus's anymore, despite malware becoming more and more advanced everyday... and the common fraud owners face wouldn't be possible with my infrastructure hence one need to better the industry and remove that type of concern for owners looking to get out. I understand you may not understand how this could be, but just trust my word for the moment. I am gathering the response of owners but not sure where crowd funding has to do with anything; this would be solely a utility, not a security of the asset.

Most importantly I want to ask; does anyone actually have an estoppel for their ownership on hand? or a copy of your recorded deed on hand? or contract? or do you just wait and try to obtain these documents when the need comes along? Just curious but again, this change could scale in with new owners and leave historic owners out if they deemed it unworthy... but not sure why current owners wouldnt use it if helpful in time either.

 

[bnoble]

Supply and demand to developer market is greatly affected by the resale market

This is empirically false. If it were true, Wyndham would not have sold a single contract in the last ten years.

 

[b2bailey]

Thought I would comment only to say that half-way through the initial post I said... "wtf" ... Then kept reading responses to see if I could glean a bit of understanding. Now, I would suggest a warning at the top that says "Must be a member of Mensa to enter this thread."

I am nearly 70, widowed professional, above average intelligence, spent my career in banking, investments, always around numbers. Yet this made my head spin. I feel target audience is more like me than OP.
I do admire the brain power of those who were able to respond.

Oh, my point being -- I am unable to respond to survey based on my lack of understanding.

 

[kaio]

@kaio I am still trying to get my head around this idea so forgive me if I am slow as I am still absorbing. (I am in tech and work with new business ideas all of the time.)
Some Tuggers have suggested that we need a CarMax for resales to bolster the resale market. It sounds like you are ideating something along those lines?

You are also describing an enabling technology, blockchain, which could support but blockchain/digitizing is not a solution. I am not making the connection as to how the business model will change other than putting the transfer companies out of business - but that is a minor cost $250 - $1000 in the title process and make estoppels easier to access.

Can you provide some kind of comparison e.g. is this like an AirBnB or UBER for timesale sales? timeshare rentals? How would that work? Please elaborate.

Yes; Carmax for Timeshares would be an accurate description of the basic feature of the initial phase.. But would need governance and standards set at the same time of technology deployment and along the way. There is no comparison I can align to; as you'd disrupting several levels of the industry with the mere introduction, even if there is no working prototype; but the programming logic is sound.

 

[geist1223]

As far as I am concerned a bunch of gobbley gook that will not go anywhere or help anyone. Reminds me of the mutual grop psychic sessions of the 70's. Reverend Jones and Kool-aide?

 

[kaio]

This is empirically false. If it were true, Wyndham would not have sold a single contract in the last ten years.

Just because the industry is the way it is; does not mean that they do not affect each other. Historically they have always affected each other. If someone buys straight from Dev, then comes on TUG and rescinds, then buys resale instead saving a fortune... then that has affected the supply and demand between the two.

Wyndham is selling contracts because a lack of education; and where have all of these contracts come from? If their not offering owners a way to exit and recycle ownership straight thru via dev... the ownership is ending up somewhere else on the resale market.... if a management company takes their ROFR to require an ownership; they are affecting the resale market by removing that supply due to the known demand. What else are they going to do; magically create further undivided interest in that supply to sell more? buy more resorts [units] to tie into a point club program and issue more undivided interest of time? that won't put more supply on the resale market years later when those owners want out? etc.. vs resale not adding in more to the already owned supply? sorry I know i'm a bit all over the place but I do understand and appreciate you're point of concern as I have stumbled around these conditions on how they push/pull.

 

[kaio]

As far as I am concerned a bunch of gobbley gook that will not go anywhere or help anyone. Reminds me of the mutual grop psychic sessions of the 70's. Reverend Jones and Kool-aide?

It's purpose is to help me understand my use case of technology. I'm not hear to provide koolaide or gobbley gook; or sell you on anything; it's totally cool if you don't want to or can't contribute in any fashion; appreciate it anyway... i'm just absorbing feedback for work i'm considering spending my time around. Have you ever developed any business plans? Ever developed technology that disrupts an industry? Think of it like that. People don't expect the unexpected; especially if starting with the worse case of nothing working. Appreciate all help nonetheless.

"Will not go anywhere or help no one"... not sure where people get this type of mentality.

 

[Panina]

For us low IQ people, what the heck are you talking about?

I have a hi IQ and am technical and I had to read it a few times to somewhat follow. Too wordy, abstract to most.

 

[WVBaker]

"I'm well rehearsed and an expert in the timeshare resale market; I know the values better than most, or the lack there of on the majority."

".... just like you likely don't how a PRA system works, or any technology you use for that matter."

"I can make more in a day than people make in a year+ on other things I am an expert in."

Why does the term "ostentatiousness" keep coming to mind?

 

[kaio]

Thought I would comment only to say that half-way through the initial post I said... "wtf" ... Then kept reading responses to see if I could glean a bit of understanding. Now, I would suggest a warning at the top that says "Must be a member of Mensa to enter this thread."

I am nearly 70, widowed professional, above average intelligence, spent my career in banking, investments, always around numbers. Yet this made my head spin. I feel target audience is more like me than OP.
I do admire the brain power of those who were able to respond.

Oh, my point being -- I am unable to respond to survey based on my lack of understanding.

Thank you for your response. It is extremely helpful. The technology would feel no different than opening up a mobile application your phone like facebook, or a website like tugbbs.com ... you do not need to know or understand the tech for it to be beneficial to you; the front end can have a very easy user interface as with any application; etc. Thank you for your time; I'm evaluating more than just the words being said... it's important to understand you don't need to know the details of how technology scales and becomes intertwined into new areas and adapts with or without your knowledge, so its no concern if you don't think you'll be educated enough to use; that's okay! and expected! If you ever decide to pass on the ownership; the new owner may have an entirely different perspective on how to organize their assets, etc.

 

[kaio]

I have a hi IQ and am technical and I had to read it a few times to somewhat follow. Too wordy, abstract to most.

Agree; it could have been articulated much better with more time (I've been up for 48 hours and I think I wrote the post 12 hours ago while compiling other work). This was a rant post, not a thought out research draft. If I proceed; I'll compile a professional whitepaper and analysis/case studies to support my thesis and development. Appreciate your response.

 

[kaio]

"I'm well rehearsed and an expert in the timeshare resale market; I know the values better than most, or the lack there of on the majority."

".... just like you likely don't how a PRA system works, or any technology you use for that matter."

"I can make more in a day than people make in a year+ on other things I am an expert in."

Why does the term "ostentatiousness" keep coming to mind?

To remove doubt that keeps roadblocking people from asking further questions that have no relevant answers. If everyone believes there is just no way, or that im in it for money, it wont help because xyz, im stubborn, or that I dont understand any aspect of the industry; they won't think logically on providing the most valuable feedback. If everyone asks "how will it make you money", I have no intention to. I day trade the stock market to fund businesses I create... or I find funding from institutions or partners interested in the advancement of said technology. Although they are valid concerns and questions; It is not relevant nor priority of scenario fortunately.

You can label me as you wish; but it adds no value to this thread for my purpose. I work 99% of the time; i'm very involved with my work and that would certainly seem ostentatious to most if they got a hint I am successful in many ways regardless of how much hard work, risk and stress is involved.

Few have said yes or no outside the poll on the basic question; nor extended on reasons for coming to basic initial response. And that provides me decent knowledge of how the resale market owners are still super skiddish about change or anything good to come and still focused on the negatives without answers on how to overcome them.

That's okay; I know this is will be a big hurdle for legacy owners to comprehend; but not so much for them to engage with when available.

 

[WinniWoman]

This is all way over my head.

 

[Panina]

My suggestion would be to create a needed business model and then work your magic with technology.

The sites/technology out there for trading have their issues and are owned by companies that have an interest in selling as developers. The sites for owners selling is scattered all over the place with no one place for listing your timeshare on your own. Creating a state of the art trading/selling/rental model that timeshare owners can use and trust using documentation submitted with proof of ownership is lacking for owners. The biggest problem with any new timeshare technology is acquisition of customers, getting the word out and becoming a trustworthy place one will use.

Tug is a great user place for loads of information around for years yet almost all people I meet at timeshares never heard of TUG which shows how hard it will be to get any timeshare model created with success.

 

[kaio]

Worry much less about the technology and worry more about the business model. I see this a lot in tech - too much obsession with technology while not thinking about the market.

There are market possibilities here but you have to get the business model right first. As an analogy, Stubhub provides what you are discussing about guaranteeing exchanges and reducing risk without blockchain technology.

Don't worry about the naysayers citing the developers power. People said the same thing about taxi industry and Uber, and hotel industry and AirBnB. However you need to find a strategic entry point; exchanges are less direct threat than sales.

Appreciate this Feedback. I have great answers for you but i'll have to wait until I publish a whitepaper due to confidentiality at the moment.

 

[kaio]

It can't change the legal covenants nor the sales model the developers follow.

Timeshares aren't pure real estate sales, (even though they are touted as such) there are always major strings attached by the developers. Such as right to prevent commercial use of timeshares, Right Of First Refusal clauses, ect.

Timeshares are in the mess they have always been, because they are vastly overbuilt. They are overbuilt because the development model is virtually totally sales driven; all of the profit is made by selling them the first time. Bit chain is not going to affect this model, it could only affect the aftermarket, and even then, there is much fragmentation in the aftermarket.

Consider, I buy an aftermarket timeshare. It may take months to close. (So does a house, as well.) I am going to hold this asset for decade or more (perhaps many decades); am I concerned about the closing time required.

Second, I am a "brave person" from a common perspective, because "everybody knows" they are scams. (Due to the developer sales model.) (personally, I was inrtroduced to timeshares by an Aunt and Uncle who owned Marriotts, I got to "try before you buy" for free. Few people have that kind of introduction.)

I don't see how your model could improve the situation, except in manners that are superficial to the core problem. (By the by, I am an old techie myself. I've seen my share of "crash and burns".)

This is a great response. And it supports the need for the technology advancement in the industry, because all of these things concerns can be addressed imo. The crash and burn is a common trend; yes... but that does not mean that you cannot succeed.

Here's the thing.. if you are complacent on the industry to stay the same or go in ways the devs control it; that's cool... that's how it's always been essentially. If you want it to change; who is going to change it? who is going to support it? and progress it in all aspects? most of the time; it falls on the back of few work horses who are dedicated to making their vision a reality... and there are always the 'impossible' conditions to overcome along the way.

 

[bizaro86]

I think you'll have a better chance with exchange/rental than with sales. The sales market is dominated by folks who have aged out of their ownerships. This is going to seem too complicated to be justified to the vast majority of people. (And I'm a 30s engineer who does understand your post) for sales I think you're 20 years to early.

For rental and exchange having a verified reservation from a trustworthy entity is something that would add real value. Redweek is trying (incompetently, imo) to address that with escrow and verification options, but a ledger would be better.

Obvious business model is the sale of tokens for recording rental/exchange transactions.

 

[kaio]

I agree you are wasting your time on something that would be redundant to the actual deed recorded in the county that would have to be checked and recorded with new owners info anyway. For newer points based systems that you are just buying points that have a beneficial interest in a trust of bundled deeds owned by the trust and controlled by the developers, the Marriotts, Wyndhams, and Bluegreens are the ones that actually handle the ownership change so they won't care about or acknowledge your blockchain ledger. The typical timeshare owner is only going to buy and sell a few times in their lifetime, so even if you developed a great blockchain solution that was accepted, it would not be highly utilized or even heard of by the general public.

Innovation does not mean irrelevant because there is already a standard in place being adhered to. Redundant is only until old technology becomes outdated. Is mailing in deeds to the court house redundant when you can e-record? Sure... but it doesn't mean they didn't adapt it... times change, so do processes, procedures, etc. along with laws around recording, etc. But thats also under consideration from the getgo and appreciate your insight on the manner. A typical owner buying and selling few times in their lifetime and expecting the transfers to take months or even upwards of a year creates a large demand for this type of technology... why should closings take longer than instantly if not same day? it's a bit ridiculous with technology adaptation available now a days... but im getting a bit ahead of myself and the use case.

The exchange and rental market it where I see opportunity. I could see blockchain replacing the aging confirmation number system in the next 10 years, and thus making exchanges and rentals much more secure and eliminate the possibility of showing up for your vacation with a bogus reservation that you thought you had rented or exchanged. Plus, renting or exchanging is something most travelers are going to do every few years or so rather than just a few times in their lifetime.

The exchange or resale market is not beneficial with out the prior (digitizing the asset) and wholisitic overview of the industry adapting; as someone else put it, a carmex wouldn't really be a standard before someone buys, leases or rents a car, etc.... until it became ingrained in the process... but thats not ' sole or main purpose either. The purpose is to restore balance to the resale market and options to owners; ease and access to official records/data that are unmanipulated through time and without user error; and remove unnecessary and sometimes illegal hurdles placed by developers to lopside education and industry practices. Really good feedback. Thank you for your insight.

 

[kaio]

I think you'll have a better chance with exchange/rental than with sales. The sales market is dominated by folks who have aged out of their ownerships. This is going to seem too complicated to be justified to the vast majority of people. (And I'm a 30s engineer who does understand your post) for sales I think you're 20 years to early.

For rental and exchange having a verified reservation from a trustworthy entity is something that would add real value. Redweek is trying (incompetently, imo) to address that with escrow and verification options, but a ledger would be better.

Obvious business model is the sale of tokens for recording rental/exchange transactions.

Whether owners were interested in the tool for ease of sale or ease of exchange or due to it's cost efficiency or demand reach or whatever may be an advantage of the tech; would be totally up to them to use or not use. It would not be a security tho; no token sales as no funding needed (not a sentiment driven model) - there would be no sale of tokens. Tokens would be non frugal and a utility token representing the asset. I could go on about how the technology would work when involved with a transfer of ownership or rental of reservation; but then i'm disclosing too much of how the technology logic would work and a technology professional like me would be able to start piecing together the standards in smart contracts i'd be programming.

Think of it as a technology tool for the industry and not a business... the transfer tool application and exchange application are further expansions that can be incorporated with ease due to the nature of the tech and logic created.

Now; if you opened the exchange up to the public that could not deposit ownerships, etc... then sale of tokens or credit or whatever payment gateway is plausible; but that could be voted on automatically by all ledgered timeshare owners within the association and so on to progress the standard on the technology and industry advancements.

Amazon started out as a bookstore; they revolutionized ecommerce with one click order button... things always adapt if you drive the way... nothing is impossible.

 

[brianfox]

I can make more in a day than people make in a year+ on other things I am an expert in.

Nope, not ostentatious AT ALL. You poop out better ideas than we dream up in a year.


Reading this thread reminds me of the hitchhiker in Something About Mary ranting about his "Seven Minute Abs" concept.

 

[bizaro86]

Part of the reason I think you might be early has to do with the industry as opposed to the technology. How do you propose to convince people that you aren't operating a scam? The vast majority of pitches in the TS industry are in fact scams of one sort or another, which makes people wary of things that are new. Given the vast majority of people have never used anything on a block chain (and the majority of those who have are currency speculators...) this doesn't feel like a natural market to look for early adopters.

I do agree that a ledger would be useful for TS transactions. I would be especially enthused if it could eliminate the requirement for notarization of documents, as that is an expensive hassle every time I buy or sell. The other big problem in resale/rental/exchange is trust. That's a tougher one, because right now nobody will trust a decentralized ledger more than they would trust a stranger on the internet.

I wish you luck!