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Faulty brakes

spirits

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Happy New Year fellow Tuggers. I am writing this post because I know you, as a group, are a wonderful source of knowledge.

My son has followed my husband in his love of well built cars and bought himself a beautiful 2008 Lexus gs 460 last year. Although pre owned, it was lovingly looked after. He has 150000km on the engine and has looked after it over the last year of ownership.

He has spoken to us about his car's brakes failing twice. Once last year and now just last month. Both times he was almost coming to a stop, braked the car and the car did not come to a complete stop. He at first thought the car had skidded on some ice and discounted it. Then a year later as he was braking at his brother's house, the car continued to move, uphill, until it hit the fence. He has it documented on a dash cam. He has taken it to the Lexus dealership and they put it through a 1500 dollar checklist (he did not pay for it) and it shows nothing wrong.

The dealership will be following up with head office and he is going to wait and see what they have to say.

Safety has always been number one for us. We would never sell the car to anyone knowing this piece of history. I have been on some Lexus forums and there is no mention of this as a problem. Tuggers, have you ever heard of anything like this?
 

1st Class

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I just did a quick google search for that make/model and it brought up a bunch of interesting threads. It seems that this is a well-known problem dating back as far as just months after its release. The threads mention problems with an actuator??? and rotors causing brake failure. Do the search and see for yourself.

Suggestion: You son should take his car ASAP to an independent mechanic that he trusts for a 2nd opinion. If Lexus has known about this for 10+ years, it's unlikely they're going to fix it now.

FWIW, I'm not a Lexus owner, just concerned for your son's safety.
 

Talent312

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Does he know the routine for stopping a car with failing brakes?
Down shift to slow down... Put in neutral... Apply emergency brake, slowly.
.
 

spirits

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Thanks guys...just talking to this with my husband (but sent my son your responses) I also looked up the brake problem but it does not seem to be what my son has. According to the Lexus dealer, his rotors and brake pads check out as good and not warped.

Also this occurs when he is almost at a complete stop....the car's brakes fail when they should be still engaged. The car just continues to move another few feet. A problem if he is coming to a stop for a pedestrian. And this does not happen all the time....only twice in this last year. So very intermittent.

He said the dealership had the car driven for 20 minutes and could not reproduce the problem but the dash cam showed there was one. Husband says it is very difficult to diagnose an intermittent problem.

Thanks for your concern Tuggers. Yes, I hope he knows how to come to a complete stop...we paid for both sons to have professional driving lessons when they were first learning to drive and defensive strategies were covered. But he will read the second post (;

He has a good independent mechanic and I am sure that will be the next step. He was just going to the dealer as his first initiative.
 

pedro47

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Talent312 Excellent advice as always down shifting gears from drive to second will causes the transmission/ vehicle to reduce its speed.
 

Passepartout

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Assuming the obvious has been checked- (the floor mats/carpets are properly anchored- that was Toyota's excuse). Get in practice with using the emergency brake.
 
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spirits

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Ahh...all the good caring here on this forum. Just heard from my son...he has an appointment with an independent mechanic for a second opinion later this week.

His car has been an excellent vehicle except for this one issue. Here is to a good second opinion!!!
 

PigsDad

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I'd get in the habit of throwing the car into Park at low speed if headed for pedestrians or something more solid.
That should be the absolute last resort, as it could easily result is major transmission damage (unfortunately, I have personal experience with this). Plus, many vehicles now have a lock-out that would prevent one from engaging Park while the vehicle is moving, so it could be ineffective in stopping the vehicle.

Using the parking brake procedure as Talent outlined above is a much better and safer.

Kurt
 

easyrider

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I would trade it in and get something reliable. When chasing a "ghost problem" in a vehicle it often requires replacing one part after another and even then you really can't be certain.

Bill
 

Passepartout

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That should be the absolute last resort, as it could easily result is major transmission damage (unfortunately, I have personal experience with this). Plus, many vehicles now have a lock-out that would prevent one from engaging Park while the vehicle is moving, so it could be ineffective in stopping the vehicle.

Using the parking brake procedure as Talent outlined above is a much better and safer.

Kurt
Yes, of course it would wreck the transmission. That was horrible advice and I have deleted it. Far better to just run into the pedestrian or wall. Or use the emergency brake.
 

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I think the point trying to be made here is that the owner/driver is aware of the problem, and as such, probably isn't in the practice of pulling up to intersections or stops with pedestrians around at anything other than a slow speed. That being the case, I completely agree - park is the very last resort; the parking brake should suffice.
 
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DrQ

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If it were me, I would have the brake fluid changed along with the master cylinder.

A TOTAL brake failure would suggest the master cylinder because at that point the brake system is split in two to prevent a total failure as you described. If any other component fails after the M/C half of the car's brakes should work.

ETA: There also may be a power brake booster, but usually you can apply hard pressure to get the car to stop. If the pedal just goes to the floor it is most likely the M/C.

As the car is used, it could be caused by a DIY brake service allowing gunk to get into the reservoir when bleeding the brakes.

This will not be cheap.
 
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DrQ

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Engine braking with a manual transmission is very effective, but they are becoming rarer in favor of dual clutch transmission DCT which allows for paddle shifting. The safety logic makes it difficult to quickly downshift (at least in my car).

Emergency Braking procedure for me would be:
  1. Downshift.
  2. Pump the brake pedal to try to build pressure.
  3. Parking Brake.

Last ditch would be a ground loop. [JK, pilot joke]
 
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PigsDad

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Yes, of course it would wreck the transmission. That was horrible advice and I have deleted it. Far better to just run into the pedestrian or wall. Or use the emergency brake.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky. Just wanted to point out that throwing it it Park may actually do nothing due to the safety lockouts. I know in my wife's car, it has a dial instead of a shift lever, and it specifically states in the owner's manual that if you turn the dial to Park while the vehicle is moving, it will have no effect until the vehicle first comes to a stop.

Kurt
 

Passepartout

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Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky. Just wanted to point out that throwing it it Park may actually do nothing due to the safety lockouts.
That's kind of my point too. Cars have become so complex with computer logic controlling, or over-riding human controls in every system. Used to be that brakes were simple things with a pedal, a master cylinder, some tubing, and hydraulic actuators at each corner. Then we got the dual system that was designed to be redundant and keep at least half the brakes working is the other side fails. Then we get anti-lock so there are no skid marks leading to the accident site. Now many (most?) Cars have self braking that will slow or stop the car before it hits something. Just set the cruise control and the following distance and the car adjusts it's speed accordingly. Now, when all these systems to haywire, intermittently, how does a mechanic test it? and what component do you test? Or do you just start changing parts, hoping you change the detective one(s).

Jim
 

geist1223

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Like the Brake Mechanic in the TV Commercial. If the brakes don't stop it something else will.
 

Chrispee

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It sounds like master cylinder internal seal failure to me given that it’s an intermittent issue. If I’m right then this issue will start popping up more frequently as the seal gets worse. Unfortunately the remedy for this would be a new very expensive master cylinder.
 
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Sea Six

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You may have a throttle problem, not a brake problem. You apply the brakes, but the throttle is up just enough to keep the car moving. Is your Check Engine light on? You may want to go to Auto Zone and have your diagnostic trouble codes pulled. Could be as simple as the throttle position sensor.
 

easyrider

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If the Lexus dealer can't find the problem with their expensive equipment it might be a problem with the driver ?

Bill
 
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