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Buy both resale and Westin Flex?

mikkey12601

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The answer depends completely on what precise weeks the trust owns. We know that the trust will own a mix of ski resort weeks (which won't all be ski weeks), Hawaii weeks, and desert weeks (including both winter and summer weeks).

If too many flex trust owners try to reserve the ski weeks, the March desert weeks, and the summer Hawaii weeks, there may not be enough of these prime weeks to go around and many flex trust owners will be disappointed.
That makes sense, so its a lot of leftover weeks from each of the prime resorts.
 

celica7101

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The answer depends completely on what precise weeks the trust owns. We know that the trust will own a mix of ski resort weeks (which won't all be ski weeks), Hawaii weeks, and desert weeks (including both winter and summer weeks).

If too many flex trust owners try to reserve the ski weeks, the March desert weeks, and the summer Hawaii weeks, there may not be enough of these prime weeks to go around and many flex trust owners will be disappointed.

I'm curious to know what happens if you try to book immediately at 12AM eastern exactly a year out. Presumably you wouldn't run into any trouble? Unless the week was already spoken for by another person a year out also, right?
 

controller1

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I'm curious to know what happens if you try to book immediately at 12AM eastern exactly a year out. Presumably you wouldn't run into any trouble? Unless the week was already spoken for by another person a year out also, right?

One of the benefits of the Westin Flex system can also be a detriment to other Westin Flex owners. For example, say you want a reservation for June 1 for seven nights and you sign on exactly at 12:00 am Eastern time 12 months earlier to reserve but find nothing. The reason there is no availability may be three days earlier someone made a reservation for May 29 for ten nights (or even seven nights) which overlaps your requested dates and therefore the unit is not available for your entire stay.
 

celica7101

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One of the benefits of the Westin Flex system can also be a detriment to other Westin Flex owners. For example, say you want a reservation for June 1 for seven nights and you sign on exactly at 12:00 am Eastern time 12 months earlier to reserve but find nothing. The reason there is no availability may be three days earlier someone made a reservation for May 29 for ten nights (or even seven nights) which overlaps your requested dates and therefore the unit is not available for your entire stay.

Are home resort bookings not obligated to stay for a week and start on a Friday or Saturday in Flex?


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DavidnRobin

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Westin Flex cannot use non-Flex inventory (and visa-versa).
It will be interesting to see how many Flex Owners get shut out of WKORV/N and have to reserve somewhere else due to lack of inventory.


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okwiater

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Are home resort bookings not obligated to stay for a week and start on a Friday or Saturday in Flex?

Not in Flex. Any day, any length of stay is permitted.
 

celica7101

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That’s the piece i was missing.


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controller1

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Westin Flex cannot use non-Flex inventory (and visa-versa).

Just for clarification for those new to Vistana, the above pertains only to Home Resort Reservations (those from 12-8 months prior to arrival). Westin Flex owners are allowed to make StarOption reservations (those less than 8 months prior to arrival) for non-Flex inventory.
 

DannyTS

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DavidnRobin

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Just for clarification for those new to Vistana, the above pertains only to Home Resort Reservations (those from 12-8 months prior to arrival). Westin Flex owners are allowed to make StarOption reservations (those less than 8 months prior to arrival) for non-Flex inventory.

Correct, at 8-months they all turn in to SOs exchanges.

Westin Flex is picking up low season deeds (more so than high season and HI weeks) as those low season (non-HI) Owners bail on their deeds compared to high season or HI Owners. That creates an 8-12 month pool for Flex that will be skewed to have those low season (non-HI) weeks available as compared to HI weeks. This will impact those Flex a Owners with hopes to convert their low season weeks into HI weeks since there are only so many HI weeks available in the Flex pool.

People buying Flex should be aware of this.


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cubigbird

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Westin Flex cannot use non-Flex inventory (and visa-versa).
It will be interesting to see how many Flex Owners get shut out of WKORV/N and have to reserve somewhere else due to lack of inventory.


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I assume it may get harder over time for home resort owners to book specific weeks as more non-flex owners get swindled over time to trade their week into the flex trust. Essentially where one inventory decreases (home resort), the other (Flex) increases?

Are there any stats out there regarding what % of owners (at flex resorts) have traded into flex?
 

okwiater

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Westin Flex is picking up low season deeds (more so than high season and HI weeks) as those low season (non-HI) Owners bail on their deeds compared to high season or HI Owners. That creates an 8-12 month pool for Flex that will be skewed to have those low season (non-HI) weeks

Is this a fact?
 

Markus

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Yes it is a fact. I have been able to see the trust documents showing the deeds conveyed and the majority, excluding Hawaii properties, are low season weeks. This also explains why the MFs are so high.

Markus.
 

DavidnRobin

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Is this a fact?

Based on logic and observation.

Flex solves an issue with the flaw in the original SVO system of having 3 seasons at non-HI resorts. The low season weeks are being defaulted at a much higher rate. Even though less upfront money to purchase - the MFs are the same (which in the long-run is what matters to Owners) for the low season owners. This in turn allows low season Owners to switch to Flex as compared to those Plat/+. Thus, more low season weeks in Flex.
(Logic)

From TUG of those reporting exchanging their weeks to Flex (bringing in additional cash), and during Owner updates and discussions with Owners at the resort considering the Flex program.
(Observation)

But, you are correct - not a fact as I do not work for VSE, and they do not share this info openly.

Using logic and observation in decision making is a common scientific approach in systems where only imperfect information is available.


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CalGalTraveler

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What's is being traded into Flex is only one week of high season - not 1 room for the entire high season.

Therefore if someone in Flex reserves that high season room week in June at 12 months, there will be no availability for that room in July or Aug. at 12 months.

So if my logic is correct, you would have to reserve early in the high season to get availability if there are a limited number high season deeds.
 

vacationtime1

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What's is being traded into Flex is only one week of high season - not 1 room for the entire high season.

Therefore if someone in Flex reserves that high season room week in June at 12 months, there will be no availability for that room in July or Aug. at 12 months.

So if my logic is correct, you would have to reserve early in the high season to get availability if there are a limited number high season deeds.

Interesting idea. By extension, one would have to reserve Hawaii for a week early in the year, lest they run out.

Flex could (should) solve this by apportioning the inventory so it gets "x"% of each week's availability. Whether they will do this, and how we would know, are unknowable.
 

duke

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Yes it is a fact. I have been able to see the trust documents showing the deeds conveyed and the majority, excluding Hawaii properties, are low season weeks. This also explains why the MFs are so high. Markus.

Interesting: SO the result is that if the low season owner defaults, the payment of the annual fee still is made as it is reallocated to the existing pool of owners in Flex. Quite a brilliant solution (for the management company) as there is never a decline in total fees paid. Clearly, this is a HUGE downside to Flex as the remaining owners becomes responsible for paying the fees of the defaulting owners. And the group of remaining owners is not just one timeshare location …. it becomes all the locations who now have to support the one with the defaults. OMG!
 
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DavidnRobin

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Those low season defaults affect both deeded ownership and Flex.

As mentioned, Flex attempts to fix a flaw in the original SVO design where low, medium and high seasons were created. The low season owners pay less upfront and in turn get less SOs, but the same MFs.

As time goes by - the low season Owner forgets that their original purchase cost was less, but is now focused on going forward by paying the same MFs as high season owners with less SOs and/or rentability (e.g. WKV). Thus, a higher default rate, and therefore a burden on the HOA with an increase in MFs to cover the delinquent owners. As the default rate increases, this burden increases causing more too default. I wrote about this years ago (pre-Flex) in regards to WSJ-VGV. The WSJ-VGV HOA came up with auctioning off those defaulted Villas. Great idea.

With Flex (and point systems) - it partially solves this problem. But, if more low season weeks get picked up in Flex - it creates an imbalance that logically would lead to Flex Owners not on top of it getting shut out of Maui, and having to go to other resorts. I believe this will show up as more Flex is purchased from the non-HI low season weeks. IMO (note: ‘Opinion’)

Personally, I am keeping my deeds as I own where I want to go, or they are rentable. Also, reserving exactly 12 or 8 months ahead. As more Flex Owners using SOs at the 8-month mark. I also suspect that Maui VSN SO exchanges will have more competition.

This will probably force a merging of VSE and Marriott Timeshares as the only out is to give more choices. IMO and pure speculation.

We shall see...
 

CalGalTraveler

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@DavidnRobin This makes total sense. MVC trust would have same issue except deeded weeks owners can enroll each year for points in trust which adds to prime inventory avail in trust.

I expect that Flex will add deeded enrollment to fix this flaw. There might be two tiers for a fee:

Enroll in Flex (keep deeded week, low fee to fix flex) $
Enroll in MVC plus Flex $$$
 

okwiater

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Based on logic and observation.

I wasn’t criticizing either your logic or observations, and I hope it didn’t come across that way. I was just curious if you had seen any hard stats to back it up or if you were making an educated guess.
 

TravelBee

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Vistana will retro a resale with a developer purchase, but you need to bring in $20,000 new money. One way to offset that 20K is to purchase resale mandatory resorts and trade them back to Vistana. Vistana will credit you 80% of the original purchase price. We did this several times and found a few SVV units for $1 each. There's another similar thread floating around here with more opinions that you should read.
Hi.

Can you elaborate? Does this mean you have to buy 2 resales? 1 mandatory to sell back and 1 non-mandatory (cheaper) to retro?

Thanks :)
 

jabberwocky

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Hi.

Can you elaborate? Does this mean you have to buy 2 resales? 1 mandatory to sell back and 1 non-mandatory (cheaper) to retro?

Thanks :)

No - you don’t have to buy 2 resales. You could simply retro in a non-mandatory with a minimum $20k flex purchase. If you have another deed that they want then they may take that as trade towards the minimum $20k; but there is a minimum amount of “new” cash they want to see come in addition to the trade-in - generally $10k.

I would not buy a mandatory unit with the sole intent of trading it back to Vistana to retro.
 

KevSki

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Hi.

Can you elaborate? Does this mean you have to buy 2 resales? 1 mandatory to sell back and 1 non-mandatory (cheaper) to retro?

Thanks :)
What we did was buy a non-mandatory where we wanted to stay (Sheraton Mountain Vista in prime winter season) and bought a mandatory Sheraton VV Key West for $1. We turned that into Vistana for $23000 (80% of original sales price), used that money for credit towards a new purchase and retroed SMV to bring it into the network and part of our portfolio.
 

celica7101

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What we did was buy a non-mandatory where we wanted to stay (Sheraton Mountain Vista in prime winter season) and bought a mandatory Sheraton VV Key West for $1. We turned that into Vistana for $23000 (80% of original sales price), used that money for credit towards a new purchase and retroed SMV to bring it into the network and part of our portfolio.

This seems pretty ingenious.

Did you actually have to pay anything in new money in this case?


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