Marriott/Vistana overlay

[CPNY]

I really considered buying a plat lagunamar as a speculation on the conversion. We would probably use it at least some of the time, so the worst case scenario isn't that bad. If the didn't offer a conversion or it was too costly we'd just use it.

However, what held me back was the risk that even if they do offer a conversion they won't be attractive on points. I think the risk is they fill the need for Mexico inventory by using unsold Adventuras inventory somehow, which they probably still have tons given they just did two hotel conversions. And I think they'll feel restricted on Cancun points by the (relatively low, imo) DC points values they gave to their own Caribbean properties.

To your point, the new conversions they did from hotels in Cancun and now puerto Vallarta coming up, the inventory is there. I don’t think they want to use that inventory to give free to their DC as some of the entitled DC owners think they will get because sales people are telling them that. I think they will take that inventory and do what’s best for MVG with it. That’s to SELL IT and make money. Take inventory from owners looking to “exchange” etc. I think rather than buying into one program as many believe will happen, they will want a robust offering and offer different programs to appeal to more buyers. You can have different programs that are integrated if you want to pay the fee to have cross booking. This will appeal to more People new to the timeshare game. Start small with a flex plan, then upsell them on being able to convert or integrate to all resorts either at the initial sale or down the road.

There is a reason why McDonald’s has a dollar menu..... ever go in to buy a burger for a buck and leave? NO, because hey, it’s only a buck so give me two of those one of these and a large drink, oh a large fry too. Bam your dollar menu just ended up in a 12 dollar transaction.

That’s why having multiple programs is smart. There is a reason why people bought into Westin and not Marriott. Just like some will only want the Westin product. That’s my two cents, but idk I’m not in corporate office making decisions. But if I was, my focus would be to offer something robust that will appeal to more customers while maximizing profits and keeping existing customers happy so they tell other guests at the property how much they love their ownership. How may conversations at the pool have you had with non owners, selling them through conversation how much you enjoy it so you bought more. Then they respond yea we talked about owning but didn’t know about timeshares or heard only bad things. Bam three days later you see them at the bar and they tell you they went on the presentation and bought. It’s happened to me quite a few times. Hell I was offered a job selling when I went to st Martin lol.

 

[ocdb8r]

To your point, the new conversions they did from hotels in Cancun and now puerto Vallarta coming up, the inventory is there. I don’t think they want to use that inventory to give free to their DC as some of the entitled DC owners think they will get because sales people are telling them that. I think they will take that inventory and do what’s best for MVG with it. That’s to SELL IT and make money. Take inventory from owners looking to “exchange” etc. I think rather than buying into one program as many believe will happen, they will want a robust offering and offer different programs to appeal to more buyers. You can have different programs that are integrated if you want to pay the fee to have cross booking. This will appeal to more People new to the timeshare game. Start small with a flex plan, then upsell them on being able to convert or integrate to all resorts either at the initial sale or down the road.

There is a reason why McDonald’s has a dollar menu..... ever go in to buy a burger for a buck and leave? NO, because hey, it’s only a buck so give me two of those one of these and a large drink, oh a large fry too. Bam your dollar menu just ended up in a 12 dollar transaction.

That’s why having multiple programs is smart. There is a reason why people bought into Westin and not Marriott. Just like some will only want the Westin product. That’s my two cents, but idk I’m not in corporate office making decisions. But if I was, my focus would be to offer something robust that will appeal to more customers while maximizing profits and keeping existing customers happy so they tell other guests at the property how much they love their ownership. How may conversations at the pool have you had with non owners, selling them through conversation how much you enjoy it so you bought more. Then they respond yea we talked about owning but didn’t know about timeshares or heard only bad things. Bam three days later you see them at the bar and they tell you they went on the presentation and bought. It’s happened to me quite a few times. Hell I was offered a job selling when I went to st Martin lol.

I don't have any crystal ball and I don't dispute some of the logic in what you've said, but it also isn't consistent with how MVC has operated in the past. When they were one company with Marriott International, they had access to a number of brands and could have created multiple differentiated products, yet they rarely strayed from the Marriott name. The attempt to create a more luxury product with the Ritz name was largely a failure. They've also not made any attempt to charge a fee for access to new resorts as they've come online over the years. As new developments were completed they were all dumped into the single DC program. To me, their tactic has quite clearly been to capitalize on the variety of resorts and locations they can offer as a selling point.

I think you forget there is a cost to maintaining different programs - license fees, brand standards, different reservation systems, different sets of sales staff...etc. It all adds up and while some of these costs are passed on to the HOAs, it still affects overall margins on the management fees and sales. I agree it's a monumental task and some of the legal impediments (existing systems, deed provisions...etc) are likely monumental, but I would bet they're trying to move to as simple and unified a system as possible.

 

[bizaro86]

To your point, the new conversions they did from hotels in Cancun and now puerto Vallarta coming up, the inventory is there. I don’t think they want to use that inventory to give free to their DC as some of the entitled DC owners think they will get because sales people are telling them that. I think they will take that inventory and do what’s best for MVG with it. That’s to SELL IT and make money. Take inventory from owners looking to “exchange” etc. I think rather than buying into one program as many believe will happen, they will want a robust offering and offer different programs to appeal to more buyers. You can have different programs that are integrated if you want to pay the fee to have cross booking. This will appeal to more People new to the timeshare game. Start small with a flex plan, then upsell them on being able to convert or integrate to all resorts either at the initial sale or down the road.

There is a reason why McDonald’s has a dollar menu..... ever go in to buy a burger for a buck and leave? NO, because hey, it’s only a buck so give me two of those one of these and a large drink, oh a large fry too. Bam your dollar menu just ended up in a 12 dollar transaction.

That’s why having multiple programs is smart. There is a reason why people bought into Westin and not Marriott. Just like some will only want the Westin product. That’s my two cents, but idk I’m not in corporate office making decisions. But if I was, my focus would be to offer something robust that will appeal to more customers while maximizing profits and keeping existing customers happy so they tell other guests at the property how much they love their ownership. How may conversations at the pool have you had with non owners, selling them through conversation how much you enjoy it so you bought more. Then they respond yea we talked about owning but didn’t know about timeshares or heard only bad things. Bam three days later you see them at the bar and they tell you they went on the presentation and bought. It’s happened to me quite a few times. Hell I was offered a job selling when I went to st Martin lol.

For sure. It will depend on what the most profitable way to sell the Mexico properties is. I don't think they can put the Mexico properties in the DC Trust (which is why Aventuras is separate and why aruba/St Kitts still sell MVC weeks).

I think some sort of cross booking or conversion is likely with an additional fee.

 

[DannyTS]

since i own several Lagunamar weeks I should embrace your theory @CPNY . Yet, is there any evidence that this happened in the past? Are the more unique MVC locations given a premium beyond the quality of the resort itself? Lagunamar has enough great feature to deserve a good valuation: great infinity pools, great location across a mall, short driving distance to the airport, tons of things to do in the area, virtually all condos have ocean views , all 2 bdrs are lockout, no mosquitoes etc. Of course the perceived country risk is a (-) even if not experienced by those travelling to WLR.

@bizaro86 . Yes, they have plenty of unsold Aventuras, but how much of that is actually Lagunamar platinum season? If I were to speculate, given that Westin Cancun and Westin Los Cabos are new resorts, I would say that they make up 80-90% of that trust. If they do not have much Lagunamar in that trust, they will still need the owners to deposit them for DC points.

 

[DannyTS]

For sure. It will depend on what the most profitable way to sell the Mexico properties is. I don't think they can put the Mexico properties in the DC Trust (which is why Aventuras is separate and why aruba/St Kitts still sell MVC weeks).

I think some sort of cross booking or conversion is likely with an additional fee.

Legal question to those that know the answer. Even if MVC cannot put the Mexico properties in the DC trust, can they instead put the Aventuras trust in the DC trust?

 

[SteelerGal]

I don't have any crystal ball and I don't dispute some of the logic in what you've said, but it also isn't consistent with how MVC has operated in the past. When they were one company with Marriott International, they had access to a number of brands and could have created multiple differentiated products, yet they rarely strayed from the Marriott name. The attempt to create a more luxury product with the Ritz name was largely a failure. They've also not made any attempt to charge a fee for access to new resorts as they've come online over the years. As new developments were completed they were all dumped into the single DC program. To me, their tactic has quite clearly been to capitalize on the variety of resorts and locations they can offer as a selling point.

I think you forget there is a cost to maintaining different programs - license fees, brand standards, different reservation systems, different sets of sales staff...etc. It all adds up and while some of these costs are passed on to the HOAs, it still affects overall margins on the management fees and sales. I agree it's a monumental task and some of the legal impediments (existing systems, deed provisions...etc) are likely monumental, but I would bet they're trying to move to as simple and unified a system as possible.

This fairly recent Brand Strategy presentation gives some insight into MI’s plans for the brands
https://marriott.gcs-web.com/static-files/580e2d20-68e2-4150-b78c-cbde8bd62f87

This was from a Marriott thread. MVC is keeping the hotel segmentation so I don’t doubt they keep it on the TS. Just have to see how they overlay.

 

[controller1]

This was from a Marriott thread. MVC is keeping the hotel segmentation so I don’t doubt they keep it on the TS. Just have to see how they overlay.

MVC is not keeping the hotel segmentation. MAR (Marriott International) is keeping the hotel segmentation. MVC (Marriott Vacation Club) is part of VAC (Marriott Vacations Worldwide Corporation). MVC is the acronym for the vacation club is and is the equivalent of Westin Vacation Club and Sheraton Vacation Club within Vistana.

 

[ocdb8r]

Yes - MAR and MVC are two very different beasts.

MAR is a pure service company (no real sales and little to no hotel ownership anymore)...and despite keeping the distinct brands they merged the reservation system and the loyalty program into one.

MVC is resort development, sales and service which means keeping multiple brands is more difficult and more costly. In addition, the distinction here is not just the brands but the full systems themselves.

Again, no saying it couldn't happen, but there are very different company mechanics going on between the hotel management company (MAR) and the timeshare company (MVC).

 

[SueDonJ]

Yes - MAR and MVC are two very different beasts.

MAR is a pure service company (no real sales and little to no hotel ownership anymore)...and despite keeping the distinct brands they merged the reservation system and the loyalty program into one.

MVC is resort development, sales and service which means keeping multiple brands is more difficult and more costly. In addition, the distinction here is not just the brands but the full systems themselves.

Again, no saying it couldn't happen, but there are very different company mechanics going on between the hotel management company (MAR) and the timeshare company (MVC).

To be even more precise, Marriott Vacation Club (MVC) is the designation for the Marriott-branded timeshares that came under the Marriott, Int'l. (MAR) umbrella, along with the Ritz-Carlton branded timeshares. When the entire timeshare segment was spun off in 2011 it was named Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC.) MVC is still used to designate the Marriott-branded timeshares from the Ritz-Carlton-branded, but the company name isn't MVC.

 

[SteelerGal]

Thank you for the explanation. However segmentation would not be unusual especially since many of the TS are still share hotel facilities. The overlay, DC, may act as the joiner of all major brands.
Worldmark/Wyndham are still segmented. Yes, there is eventual incorporation into one program however it can take years.

 

[SueDonJ]

Thank you for the explanation. However segmentation would not be unusual especially since many of the TS are still share hotel facilities. The overlay, DC, may act as the joiner of all major brands.
Worldmark/Wyndham are still segmented. Yes, there is eventual incorporation into one program however it can take years.

I honestly would be more surprised to see a company name change that doesn't use the word "Marriott" in it, than I'd be to see them remain as Marriott Vacations Worldwide with all of the same brands that exist now coming under the MVW umbrella. The company culture and reputation was built on that name and the family is still involved. (I also wouldn't be surprised to see them at some point in the future unload segments, but that's not what the recent TUG threads are really about.)

Like you say, the MVW Destination Club Exchange Company could be the vehicle for integrating all of the timeshare companies that currently come under the Marriott Vacations Worldwide umbrella. If it's offered to Vistana/Hyatt owners the same as it has been to Marriott owners it'll be completely voluntary participation in an exchange company, which doesn't require forfeiture of existing ownerships or have any impact on contractual affiliations related to hotel loyalty programs, or, between timeshare properties and co-located hotels.

(If anyone has questions about the Marriott DC program, the Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation] thread in the Marriott forum has some detail.)

 

[CPNY]

Legal question to those that know the answer. Even if MVC cannot put the Mexico properties in the DC trust, can they instead put the Aventuras trust in the DC trust?

I wonder where Westin St John and Harborside fit into this equation. Are there legal implications there as well? Neither are in any flex program.

 

[bizaro86]

since i own several Lagunamar weeks I should embrace your theory @CPNY . Yet, is there any evidence that this happened in the past? Are the more unique MVC locations given a premium beyond the quality of the resort itself? Lagunamar has enough great feature to deserve a good valuation: great infinity pools, great location across a mall, short driving distance to the airport, tons of things to do in the area, virtually all condos have ocean views , all 2 bdrs are lockout, no mosquitoes etc. Of course the perceived country risk is a (-) even if not experienced by those travelling to WLR.

@bizaro86 . Yes, they have plenty of unsold Aventuras, but how much of that is actually Lagunamar platinum season? If I were to speculate, given that Westin Cancun and Westin Los Cabos are new resorts, I would say that they make up 80-90% of that trust. If they do not have much Lagunamar in that trust, they will still need the owners to deposit them for DC points.

I agree. I doubt Lagunamar is even 10% of that trust, and plat Lagunamar is probably not very represented. However, from MVC perspective offering the Westin Cancun to DC members/sales prospects probably feels like a pretty equivalent offering, which is what will be important to them.

I think Lagunamar is superior in a number of ways.

 

[SteelerGal]

I honestly would be more surprised to see a company name change that doesn't use the word "Marriott" in it, than I'd be to see them remain as Marriott Vacations Worldwide with all of the same brands that exist now coming under the MVW umbrella. The company culture and reputation was built on that name and the family is still involved. (I also wouldn't be surprised to see them at some point in the future unload segments, but that's not what the recent TUG threads are really about.)

Like you say, the MVW Destination Club Exchange Company could be the vehicle for integrating all of the timeshare companies that currently come under the Marriott Vacations Worldwide umbrella. If it's offered to Vistana/Hyatt owners the same as it has been to Marriott owners it'll be completely voluntary participation in an exchange company, which doesn't require forfeiture of existing ownerships or have any impact on contractual affiliations related to hotel loyalty programs, or, between timeshare properties and co-located hotels.

(If anyone has questions about the Marriott DC program, the Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation] thread in the Marriott forum has some detail.)

Yes, MVC can indicate “ A MVC Company”. Hilton has it w/ BHC.

 

[CPNY]

I agree. I doubt Lagunamar is even 10% of that trust, and plat Lagunamar is probably not very represented. However, from MVC perspective offering the Westin Cancun to DC members/sales prospects probably feels like a pretty equivalent offering, which is what will be important to them.

I think Lagunamar is superior in a number of ways.

I really need to check out Cancun I guess. Mexico never appealed to me. I don’t want to have to worry the nonsense that goes on in the area.

 

[SueDonJ]

Yes, MVC can indicate “ A MVC Company”. Hilton has it w/ BHC.

Assuming you're saying that Vistana/Hyatt property signage/correspondence/etc could note the parent company, yes. But "An MVW Company," to be precise.

 

[DannyTS]

I agree. I doubt Lagunamar is even 10% of that trust, and plat Lagunamar is probably not very represented. However, from MVC perspective offering the Westin Cancun to DC members/sales prospects probably feels like a pretty equivalent offering, which is what will be important to them.

I think Lagunamar is superior in a number of ways.

Marriott knows the value of each location/resort/season/view better than anyone else. It is more a question whether they want to try to fool the MVC owners or not. From what I know, the Marriott owners are some of the hardest to please and I do not think they will swallow easily the explanation that Lagunamar and Westin Cancun are the same thing.

 

[bizaro86]

Marriott knows the value of each location/resort/season/view better than anyone else. It is more a question whether they want to try to fool the MVC owners or not. From what I know, the Marriott owners are some of the hardest to please and I do not think they will swallow easily the explanation that Lagunamar and Westin Cancun are the same thing.

They have the same staroptions...

Also, I think it's really unlikely the average new sales prospect will be able to differentiate between the two Westin's in Cancun. Even the small minority who care could be told that it was available, which would be true as Adventuras has some of it.

 

[SteelerGal]

Assuming you're saying that Vistana/Hyatt property signage/correspondence/etc could note the parent company, yes. But "An MVW Company," to be precise.

Oops. Yes, it would notate the parent company. The only issue is still Hyatt because of Hyatt licensing.

 

[dioxide45]

Legal question for you or those that know the answer. Even if they cannot put the Mexico properties in the DC trust, can they instead put the Aventuras trust in the DC trust?

I don't think so. I think that the DC trust can only hold US based real estate. Westin Aventuras and Lagunamar are set up more like corporations and you buy shares. I don't think they can add corporate shares to a land based trust. Oddly, any transfers of the Mexico properties have to go through a US based title company.

 

[CPNY]

I don't think so. I think that the DC trust can only hold US based real estate. Westin Aventuras and Lagunamar are set up more like corporations and you buy shares. I don't think they can add corporate shares to a land based trust. Oddly, any transfers of the Mexico properties have to go through a US based title company.

Is that unique for the Mexico properties? How does it affect Harborside. Westin St John is in a US Territory I would assume that can go in the trust? Then again, it’s not part of any Westin Flex plan.

 

[dioxide45]

I wonder where Westin St John and Harborside fit into this equation. Are there legal implications there as well? Neither are in any flex program.

There really is no reason they can't add WSJ to the Westin Flex trust. Marriott's Frenchman's Cove is in the DC trust. Though it took them longer to add it. Likely because of certain legalities and approvals needed. Of course, some of the newer phases at WSJ are HomeOption and not weeks so that could complicate things for those phases.

 

[CPNY]

Who knows what about Hyatt. Is a free studio worth taking? Free closing? Can I use it anywhere?

 

[ocdb8r]

Marriott knows the value of each location/resort/season/view better than anyone else. It is more a question whether they want to try to fool the MVC owners or not. From what I know, the Marriott owners are some of the hardest to please and I do not think they will swallow easily the explanation that Lagunamar and Westin Cancun are the same thing.

They have the same staroptions...

Also, I think it's really unlikely the average new sales prospect will be able to differentiate between the two Westin's in Cancun. Even the small minority who care could be told that it was available, which would be true as Adventuras has some of it.

I agree with Danny here - have a close look at the Marriott DC Point Charts. MVC has absolutely no problem putting measurable differences in point value on resorts in the same geographic area that don't offer the same level of amenities. The Westin Cancun rooms are substantially smaller and I think the facilities and location are not as nice as Laguanamar. The fact that SVN allocated them the same amount of points is inconsequential. The real question to me is how MVC will see Cancun overall. Most felt they slighted the rest of the Caribbean resorts DC Point values compared to (perceived) actual demand.

 

[bizaro86]

I agree with Danny here - have a close look at the Marriott DC Point Charts. MVC has absolutely no problem putting measurable differences in point value on resorts in the same geographic area that don't offer the same level of amenities. The Westin Cancun rooms are substantially smaller and I think the facilities and location are not as nice as Laguanamar. The fact that SVN allocated them the same amount of points is inconsequential. The real question to me is how MVC will see Cancun overall. Most felt they slighted the rest of the Caribbean resorts DC Point values compared to (perceived) actual demand.

Sorry, I wasn't talking primarily about point values, more about availability. I agree MVC would likely assign more points to Lagunamar, unless that do a fixed staroption ratio (more an exchange program).

However, we were previously discussing the lack of developer Lagunamar inventory and whether they will need to "pay up" for Lagunamar in the form of a higher-than-otherwise point value to get owners to move over. I don't think they will, because they will view the Westin Cancun as a reasonable substitute.

I do agree that they will differentiate between properties (WKV more than SDO, Lagunamar more than Westin Cancun, SVV more than SVR)