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Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation]

JIMinNC

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wow that’s amazing, I would enroll if and only if I can keep my star options booking separate from the DC program. If I get the best of both worlds then I’d pay up

I will enroll too only if I can keep my starpoints reservation. If I have to give SOs ability up, I won’t do it.

The best of both worlds is definitely what the pre-6/20/2010 MVC owners got.
 

CPNY

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Got something against the mouse? :)


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Ever hear of timesharenation.com? They are giving away a Sheraton desert oasis. Is it worth it to use for trade
I will sell all of my weeks and move to Hilton and Disney. I’m sure someone will want your vacation money.
DVC is too expensive, and I’m not a fan of HGVC destinations. Maybe Hyatt? Or I’ll just take my aunts deeded week in harborside since I am selling mine.
 

CPNY

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The best of both worlds is definitely what the pre-6/20/2010 MVC owners got.
And still have it to this day? Hey, we could have best of both. Who knows how it shakes out. I just don’t want to be tripping over everyone for availability in my favorite resorts.
 

SueDonJ

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For the folks that have been around on the Marriott site for at least nine years; I wonder what Perry would have to say about these mergers (and all his speculations) ?

If history is any indication he'd right now be ranting and raving against the Evil Marriott Machine for everything under the sun plus more, but the minute they roll out whatever they roll out for Vistana/Hyatt owners he'll proclaim it The Best Timeshare Product Ever Developed In The History Of Forever and start selling an information packet (that rips off Marriott copyrights and quotes Marriott documentation) on eBay.

;)
 

billymach4

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If history is any indication he'd right now be ranting and raving against the Evil Marriott Machine for everything under the sun plus more, but the minute they roll out whatever they roll out for Vistana/Hyatt owners he'll proclaim it The Best Timeshare Product Ever Developed In The History Of Forever and start selling an information packet (that rips off Marriott copyrights and quotes Marriott documentation) on eBay.

;)

So that's who peddled that propaganda on EBay! Dang! The Orangefan user on Ebay. Claimed to be from CT!
He was selling info packets for $10 on EBay.
 

JIMinNC

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As we've been talking here, I can foresee a few potential minefields for Marriott owners in some of the popular MVC locations where VSE has no presence - places like Aruba, Hilton Head, Newport Coast, etc.

For example, Aruba is already difficult to book in prime winter season in the DC because those locations are ineligible for the DC Trust, so the only inventory that shows up in the DC Exchange is inventory that Aruba owners have elected for points. There is no Trust inventory. Since VSE has no presence in Aruba, that will likely be one place a lot of VSN owners want to visit, increasing demand/competition for the already limited Aruba inventory. I don't think somewhere like Maui Ocean Club will be impacted much, since VSN has three resorts of their own there, so VSN owners wanting to go to Maui have less reason to choose to elect for DC points, whereas those wanting to go somewhere VSE is not will want to elect for DC points, putting more strain on those locations. I think the majority of the DC demand from VSN owners will gravitate to the popular locations where VSN is not.

The same thing could happen in reverse at the locations VSE has where Marriott is not - namely Mexico, St John, and Harborside - but if that inventory which is open to DC users is dependent upon VSN owners electing for DC points, it may take longer for the inventory crunch to happen at those locations.
 
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dioxide45

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So that's who peddled that propaganda on EBay! Dang! The Orangefan user on Ebay. Claimed to be from CT!
He was selling info packets for $10 on EBay.
I think Sue was referring to The Timeshare Wizard, he had his own forum and sold his ebook.
 

SueDonJ

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So that's who peddled that propaganda on EBay! Dang! The Orangefan user on Ebay. Claimed to be from CT!
He was selling info packets for $10 on EBay.

I think Sue was referring to The Timeshare Wizard, he had his own forum and sold his ebook.

I don't know which was Perry's but there were a few who used eBay and their own websites to cash in. I don't know if we ever learned whether Marriott did anything about their copyrighted logos and docs being co-opted?
 

CPNY

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Here is an excerpt from VSN Rules etc.. special exchange programs.... however, doesn’t mean anything since right above that they have the right to make an amendment of the network rules whenever they want.

8.3 Amendment of the Network Rules. Except as provided in the Resort Documents, Network Operator expressly reserves the right to amend the Network Rules, with respect to Network Resorts in all respects, in its sole discretion, from time to time, without the consent of Network Members, for any purpose, including permitting banking of Vacation Periods and creating Network tiers. Network Operator shall deliver notice of any amendment to each Primary Contact at the Primary Contact’s last known address. Notice of amendments may be made by newsletter, annual mailings, facsimile, or e-mail.

8.4 Special Exchange Programs. Network Operator reserves the right, from time to time, to enter into special exchange relationships with any entity other than an External Exchange Company pursuant to which Network Members will have access to selected non-Network resorts and non-Network owners will have access to Network accommodations after the Home Resort Reservation Period. Any special exchange programs will be governed by reservation rules and regulations similar to those governing an External Exchange Program.

Could a joint program be considered an exchange program and inventory is based solely on who exchanges? So after the home resort reservation period, could mean MVC owners could book at 8 months. But again, similar rules to those governing an external exchange.
 

vacationtime1

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I don't really see them killing the club altogether either. Many unhappy owners that used to be able to trade even steven from Scottsdale to Hawaii would now have to pony up perhaps 50-100% more points to get the same trade. I don't see them doing that.

Exactly. Still, it’s possible. And since this thread is all about speculation, and very little facts, it’s time to revisit the unlikely possibility of eliminating VSN internal trades
altogether. Doing so would increase the number of weeks enrolled in whatever trading network they promote.

My concern is that MVC kills StarOption exchanges by killing the supply side. Assume almost any of the methods of enrollment posted above. If Westin Maui, Westin Princeville, Harborside, etc. owners are sufficiently incentivized, they will elect DC points and relinquish their units to the DC trust rather than exchanging within the StarOptions pool. That would reduce the high-end, target inventory that SVV, Kierland, etc. owners like me attempt to pick off at the eight month mark. The result would be to push StarOption trading into a corner. I hope not.

If MVC wants this to work, it will need to price* the target Westin resorts expensively -- to increase supply and to reduce demand. The opposite for most of the Sheraton resorts; they will command relatively few DC points.

* assign lots of DC points
 

JIMinNC

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My concern is that MVC kills StarOption exchanges by killing the supply side. Assume almost any of the methods of enrollment posted above. If Westin Maui, Westin Princeville, Harborside, etc. owners are sufficiently incentivized, they will elect DC points and relinquish their units to the DC trust rather than exchanging within the StarOptions pool. That would reduce the high-end, target inventory that SVV, Kierland, etc. owners like me attempt to pick off at the eight month mark. The result would be to push StarOption trading into a corner. I hope not.

If MVC wants this to work, it will need to price* the target Westin resorts expensively -- to increase supply and to reduce demand. The opposite for most of the Sheraton resorts; they will command relatively few DC points.

* assign lots of DC points

If the current MVC DC is any indication of what a new program might look like from a points standpoint, they will price the Westin resorts expensively. Here is how MVC priced 2BR units at Marriott Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Towers, which is the closest thing to the Westins on Maui as far as accommodations, etc. Compared to that are a few MVC resorts in Orlando & Phoenix that might be comparable to the Sheraton properties:

Marriott's Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina and Napili Villas
2 Bedroom Island View - 4700 points or 5450 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Mtn/Gdn View - 5500 points or 6425 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Ocean View - 6650 points or 7625 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Ocean Front - 7450 points or 8650 points depending on season

Marriott's Cypress Harbour, Orlando
2 Bedroom - 1725 to 3225 points, depending on season

Marriott's Grande Vista, Orlando
2 Bedroom - 1900 to 3500 points, depending on season

Marriott's Harbour Lake, Orlando
2 Bedroom - 1725 to 3225 points, depending on season

Marriott's Canyon Villas, Phoenix
2 Bedroom - 1725 to 4175 points, depending on season

As you can see, Maui is very much "demand priced". I would certainly expect WKORV, WKORVN, and Nanea to be priced similarly to the Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas in any notional VSE points charts for the DC.
 

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As you can see, Maui is very much "demand priced". I would certainly expect WKORV, WKORVN, and Nanea to be priced similarly to the Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas in any notional VSE points charts for the DC.

Looks like DC will devalue Westin Maui Island View which currently has the same value as Oceanview at 148100 pts. Also Westin Kierland will be devalued from the current 148100 pts (good for 2 br Maui with possible OV) to not even enough for Maui worst view. These 2 groups (Maui IV and WKV) will continue to trade internally with VSN, so does SVV.
 

CalGalTraveler

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So if you own a plat 2 bdrm EOY on Maui are the points half the value annually? Can you combine from multiple EOY years?

Or are the point values the same but EOY? Can you bank partial points to a future year but use partial points in current year?
 
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vacationtime1

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So if you own a plat 2 bdrm EOY on Maui are the points half the value annually? Can you combine from multiple EOY years?

Or are the point values the same but EOY? Can you bank partial points to a future year but use partial points in current year?

The point values are the same but EOY. Points are points, so once elected, they can be used or banked for 1-2 years (depending on status level) in whole or in part. And yes, points from different weeks and years can be combined.
 

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As they say in the investment biz, past performance is no guarantee of future returns, but I do know that the folks who owned multiple resale weeks prior to June 20, 2010 got what is probably the best deal in the history of timesharing. Marriott allowed these resale weeks to be enrolled for $1495 for one week or $1995 for multiple weeks. I know some TUGgers who had 5 or 6 weeks and came out of that with 15,000 to 20,000+ points. No guarantee they'll do the same for Vistana/Hyatt since the program is more mature now and they don't need to kick-start it like they did back then, but if they do it could be a really good deal for VSE owners who take advantage. Folks like me who became MVC owners after that point are jealous of all these folks' cheap points.

I think this is a bit of a generous comment. People who had bought their weeks directly from Marriott didn't get THAT stellar of a deal. Those that had purchased resale got a decent deal, but given Marriott completely changed the game overnight, I think it was a fair tradeoff (keep in mind prior to the DC, resale weeks were getting quite generous trades in II).

For the folks that have been around on the Marriott site for at least nine years; I wonder what Perry would have to say about these mergers (and all his speculations) ?

PERRY! I would LOVE to have Perry back to add some fun color to these threads.

I don't really see them killing the club altogether either. Many unhappy owners that used to be able to trade even steven from Scottsdale to Hawaii would now have to pony up perhaps 50-100% more points to get the same trade. I don't see them doing that.

I agree that I think it's unlikely (at least in the short term) that they get rid of SVN because it alienates many of the new owners they are hoping to court. I however disagree that they care that Kierland owners might be marginalized because of their inability to trade even steven into Maui - the DC points charts make clear Marriott don't think this should be the case.
 

bazzap

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Ou
As they say in the investment biz, past performance is no guarantee of future returns, but I do know that the folks who owned multiple resale weeks prior to June 20, 2010 got what is probably the best deal in the history of timesharing. Marriott allowed these resale weeks to be enrolled for $1495 for one week or $1995 for multiple weeks. I know some TUGgers who had 5 or 6 weeks and came out of that with 15,000 to 20,000+ points. No guarantee they'll do the same for Vistana/Hyatt since the program is more mature now and they don't need to kick-start it like they did back then, but if they do it could be a really good deal for VSE owners who take advantage. Folks like me who became MVC owners after that point are jealous of all these folks' cheap points.
Our pre TUG developer week purchases were enrolled for $695.
Once in, future pre cut off date resale week purchases (2012 for Europe and 2016 for Phuket) could be enrolled without further payment, so we did not incur the $1995 resale enrolment fee, although of course we did have the cost of buying from Marriott initially.
This did give us 20000+ points though.
 

bazzap

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FWIW, this Marriott resort always seems to be available for getaway or easy trades for many months of the year. If it’s so good, why is that?


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There are 2 MVC resorts in Phuket, Phuket Beach Club (PBC) and Mai Khao Beach Resort (MKB)
PBC was sold as weeks, MKB was only ever available as AP points.
You may often find MKB available for getaways or easy trades, far less so PBC.
If you do find PBC available though, it may well be due to 2 factors
1) very long haul flights, especially from many parts of the US
2) they have a 6 month rainy season, roughly mid May to end October.
I suspect you may find availability at PBC during the dry season far more of a challenge.
 

ocdb8r

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As we've been talking here, I can foresee a few potential minefields for Marriott owners in some of the popular MVC locations where VSE has no presence - places like Aruba, Hilton Head, Newport Coast, etc.

For example, Aruba is already difficult to book in prime winter season in the DC because those locations are ineligible for the DC Trust, so the only inventory that shows up in the DC Exchange is inventory that Aruba owners have elected for points. There is no Trust inventory. Since VSE has no presence in Aruba, that will likely be one place a lot of VSN owners want to visit, increasing demand/competition for the already limited Aruba inventory. I don't think somewhere like Maui Ocean Club will be impacted much, since VSN has three resorts of their own there, so VSN owners wanting to go to Maui have less reason to choose to elect for DC points, whereas those wanting to go somewhere VSE is not will want to elect for DC points, putting more strain on those locations. I think the majority of the DC demand from VSN owners will gravitate to the popular locations where VSN is not.

The same thing could happen in reverse at the locations VSE has where Marriott is not - namely Mexico, St John, and Harborside - but if that inventory which is open to DC users is dependent upon VSN owners electing for DC points, it may take longer for the inventory crunch to happen at those locations.

Theoretically your two scenarios should balance each other out a bit; an increase in alternatives should increase people exchanging for DC points in order to visit new locations (i.e. more Aruba people drop their weeks into the DC in order to gain access to Mexico, St. John and Harborside while more Mexico, St. John and Harborside owners drop their weeks into the DC to gain access to DC resorts). However, what you point out is an inherent problem with the system: a) the DC trust owns no Aruba weeks (which you pointed out) and b) (more importantly) Aruba weeks were undervalued in DC points compared to their demand - Aruba owners are not incentivized sufficiently to turn their weeks in as in many cases they can't get enough points to travel to a comparable destination.
 

Dean

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They have not a asked existing members to pay extra to access this new inventory. Why should they do so now just because a resort has Weston or Vistana or Hyatt in its name?
But they have asked members to ante up to participate in the DC and the non Marriott owners have not yet done so. Anything they'd paid they paid to a different company and one way or another, Marriott will want their dollars where they can get them. Obviously it's a balance and who knows what they'll do. They may decide the inventory and participation is worth a low or no fee. More likely there will be a fairly short period to time where a cheap enrollment is available.

This is crazy. I can get almost 2 Westin Kierland deeds with that price that can get me 2 weeks at Maui with $1600 MF per week. or 4 weeks if I lock off.

Exactly right. I will never give them my week and VSN star options booking. I will only elect to enroll for a small fee even then, I’d think twice about it. They will devalue staroptions so our two bedrooms = 2000 DC leaving us to buy more. Who knows
As noted, that assumes the programs stay the same. I think it's close to 100% certainty that will not be the case long term, how much it'll be different is the question.

I don't really see them killing the club altogether either.
Neither do I see them leaving those programs completely intact, best case scenario is likely that they stay intact other than volume as some are syphoned off for the DC.

Wow, kill VSN completely. That’s a good smart strategy and declare war to these Starwood customers they just spent billions to acquire.

That would be the exit to my timeshare game. I’ll just rent
There will be some that will be better off and some worse off with whatever happens, this is the nature off the beast. And some of those will decide to exit as it always the case. Likely most will stay and most will pay dues with whatever system ends up.

Here is an excerpt from VSN Rules etc.. special exchange programs.... however, doesn’t mean anything since right above that they have the right to make an amendment of the network rules whenever they want.

8.3 Amendment of the Network Rules. Except as provided in the Resort Documents, Network Operator expressly reserves the right to amend the Network Rules, with respect to Network Resorts in all respects, in its sole discretion, from time to time, without the consent of Network Members, for any purpose, including permitting banking of Vacation Periods and creating Network tiers. Network Operator shall deliver notice of any amendment to each Primary Contact at the Primary Contact’s last known address. Notice of amendments may be made by newsletter, annual mailings, facsimile, or e-mail.

8.4 Special Exchange Programs. Network Operator reserves the right, from time to time, to enter into special exchange relationships with any entity other than an External Exchange Company pursuant to which Network Members will have access to selected non-Network resorts and non-Network owners will have access to Network accommodations after the Home Resort Reservation Period. Any special exchange programs will be governed by reservation rules and regulations similar to those governing an External Exchange Program.

Could a joint program be considered an exchange program and inventory is based solely on who exchanges? So after the home resort reservation period, could mean MVC owners could book at 8 months. But again, similar rules to those governing an external exchange.
As I suspect and as noted in 8.3, it appears they have 100% control over the reservation procedures which normally includes points costs, reallocations, other resorts (which have less protection normally). From a legal and contractual standpoint I suspect there are a LOT less protections than some think.
 

bazzap

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Theoretically your two scenarios should balance each other out a bit; an increase in alternatives should increase people exchanging for DC points in order to visit new locations (i.e. more Aruba people drop their weeks into the DC in order to gain access to Mexico, St. John and Harborside while more Mexico, St. John and Harborside owners drop their weeks into the DC to gain access to DC resorts). However, what you point out is an inherent problem with the system: a) the DC trust owns no Aruba weeks (which you pointed out) and b) (more importantly) Aruba weeks were undervalued in DC points compared to their demand - Aruba owners are not incentivized sufficiently to turn their weeks in as in many cases they can't get enough points to travel to a comparable destination.
And to an extent the impact of that undervaluation applies to all MVC Caribbean weeks.
So although our St Kitts weeks are enrolled, we will never elect them for DC points.
We either use them as home resort stays or they are great Interval exchangers, always our first to be confirmed.
 

CPNY

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And to an extent the impact of that undervaluation applies to all MVC Caribbean weeks.
So although our St Kitts weeks are enrolled, we will never elect them for DC points.
We either use them as home resort stays or they are great Interval exchangers, always our first to be confirmed.

Hmm it seems that they don’t value their Caribbean resorts? VSN Caribbean resorts are def much better. Harborside just for the fact you have access to the Atlantis. Im sure they will value that a decent resort. Although when I was there last, there were two gentlemen from MVG scouting the place.
 
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