Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation]

[CalGalTraveler]

If the current MVC DC is any indication of what a new program might look like from a points standpoint, they will price the Westin resorts expensively. Here is how MVC priced 2BR units at Marriott Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina/Napili Towers, which is the closest thing to the Westins on Maui as far as accommodations, etc. Compared to that are a few MVC resorts in Orlando & Phoenix that might be comparable to the Sheraton properties:

Marriott's Maui Ocean Club - Lahaina and Napili Villas
2 Bedroom Island View - 4700 points or 5450 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Mtn/Gdn View - 5500 points or 6425 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Ocean View - 6650 points or 7625 points depending on season
2 Bedroom Ocean Front - 7450 points or 8650 points depending on season


As you can see, Maui is very much "demand priced". I would certainly expect WKORV, WKORVN, and Nanea to be priced similarly to the Maui Ocean Club Lahaina/Napili Villas in any notional VSE points charts for the DC.

What is the difference in season? I thought all of Maui was platinum 1 - 50 and event week (51 - 52) similar to Westin Kaanapali? Is that the difference in point spread in your example?

 

[ocdb8r]

As I suspect and as noted in 8.3, it appears they have 100% control over the reservation procedures which normally includes points costs, reallocations, other resorts (which have less protection normally). From a legal and contractual standpoint I suspect there are a LOT less protections than some think.

As regards SVN, I think you're right on. People here generally seem to overestimate the protections they have. I generally think two things go into MVC's thinking (and honestly, to Vistana and ILG before them):

1) How do we orchestrate an exchange system that DOES comport with the actual deeded protections (which for floating week resorts generally says during a certain period - usually the home resort period - reservations are on a first-come first-served basis and without competition from non-home resort owners). This may sound simple, but in practice the complications of a multi-trust/multi-brand overarching system, it's hard to manage inventory in a fluid way even respecting this basic principle. Thus I suspect they try to create something that might technically violate this at times but generally ensures owners are happy and get reasonable access to their resort. I have long suspected that if MVC or SVN reservation systems were audited, there would certainly be some technical violations of the specific requirements in deeds.

2) How do we orchestrate a system that doesn't marginalize or alienate any single group of owners (at a specific resort or within a specific system). Basically, I do believe they are motivated to institute something that is (or at least can be "sold" as) fair. Even if they have wide latitude to make big changes in existing systems or new systems, any short-term gain they can make by taking advantage of this latitude comes at the price of long-term gains. Thus far I think MVC has kept this in mind and taken a pretty fair and balanced approach (certainly not perfect) to the DC.

 

[TravelTime]

How do you get to chairman’s level in MVC

At the moment, it is 15.000 DPs per year. I have the equivalent of 11, 700 per year.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

The point values are the same but EOY. Points are points, so once elected, they can be used or banked for 1-2 years (depending on status level) in whole or in part. And yes, points from different weeks and years can be combined.

Thanks for clarifying. So if I enroll my EOY:

1) Will I have to pay the annual enrollment fee whether I elect to use it for points or not?
2) Can I rent points from others annually if I am EOY?
3) Can I rent out my points annually? i.e. in a banked year 1 - 2 years out as an EOY.
4) How much is a rental per point typically?

We only have a toe in the VSN/MVC market with one property that we will use on Maui more often than trade, so renting points with enrollment might be worth it, but it still must pencil out to be less than occasionally renting MVC on the open market/getaway, or the occasional trade, otherwise, why obligate yourself to paying several hundred every year plus the up-front cost of enrollment?

 

[kds4]

Thanks for clarifying. So if I enroll my EOY:

1) Will I have to pay the annual enrollment fee whether I elect to use it for points or not?
2) Can I rent points from others annually if I am EOY?
3) Can I rent out my points annually? i.e. in a banked year 1 - 2 years out as an EOY.
4) How much is a rental per point typically?

We only have a toe in the VSN/MVC market with one property that we will use on Maui more often than trade, so renting points with enrollment might be worth it, but it still must pencil out to be less than occasionally renting MVC on the open market/getaway, or the occasional trade, otherwise, why obligate yourself to paying several hundred every year plus the up-front cost of enrollment?

From my experience in the program:

1. Yes (with the amount of annual 'dues' being based on your ownership level. The higher the level, the higher the dues. A breakdown was given in a previous post).
2. Yes (an enrolled owner is an enrolled owner. All have the ability to rent points).
3. Unsure, but probably. I don't have experience with EOY units.
4. Varies (but often around the maintenance fee cost of DC points. This year .58/pp, although sometimes owners will talk of renting out their points for more than this).

 

[Fasttr]

What is the difference in season? I thought all of Maui was platinum 1 - 50 and event week (51 - 52) similar to Westin Kaanapali? Is that the difference in point spread in your example?

See pages 54-55 here... http://vacationpointexchange.com/pointschart/points_charts_2019.pdf

 

[JIMinNC]

What is the difference in season? I thought all of Maui was platinum 1 - 50 and event week (51 - 52) similar to Westin Kaanapali? Is that the difference in point spread in your example?

Hawaii is one season for the MVC legacy weeks system, but when they created the points system in 2010 they created two seasons in all of the Hawaii resorts.

 

[JIMinNC]

Thanks for clarifying. So if I enroll my EOY:

1) Will I have to pay the annual enrollment fee whether I elect to use it for points or not?
2) Can I rent points from others annually if I am EOY?
3) Can I rent out my points annually? i.e. in a banked year 1 - 2 years out as an EOY.
4) How much is a rental per point typically?

We only have a toe in the VSN/MVC market with one property that we will use on Maui more often than trade, so renting points with enrollment might be worth it, but it still must pencil out to be less than occasionally renting MVC on the open market/getaway, or the occasional trade, otherwise, why obligate yourself to paying several hundred every year plus the up-front cost of enrollment?

1) Yes. Once enrolled the annual membership fee is paid annually.
2) Yes. You can rent points at any time.
3) You cannot rent points that have been banked or borrowed. You can only rent your owned points in their original use year. So if you have even year points, you can only rent your even year allocations- 2020, 2022, etc.
4) On VPE point rental ads range from $0.60 to $0.70.

 

[pchung6]

As noted, that assumes the programs stay the same. I think it's close to 100% certainty that will not be the case long term, how much it'll be different is the question.

Neither do I see them leaving those programs completely intact, best case scenario is likely that they stay intact other than volume as some are syphoned off for the DC.

There will be some that will be better off and some worse off with whatever happens, this is the nature off the beast. And some of those will decide to exit as it always the case. Likely most will stay and most will pay dues with whatever system ends up.

As I suspect and as noted in 8.3, it appears they have 100% control over the reservation procedures which normally includes points costs, reallocations, other resorts (which have less protection normally). From a legal and contractual standpoint I suspect there are a LOT less protections than some think.

You are exactly right and thanks for pointing out for less protection than we think (we can sell as our last protection). Who knows what will happen in both programs, but in short term at least, our SVN owners will just continue to enjoy our great SVN program. The best scenario is to have the best of both systems, keep staroption reservation chart and the ability to use DC for a small fee. The worst scenario is they crack SVN down completely and face angry customers. Of course anything can happen in between, and with TUG board, I will monitor it closely. I can always exit if things don't look right for Vistana program, so I think we are in perfectly spot with only something to gain. I'm excited about the future change.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Thanks all for the very helpful information.

So if I understand the discussion so far, a basic formula to evaluate whether to enroll is this:


A) If you plan to Convert Points to Use for Trades (edited/updated from feedback)

MF + $205 annual dues/# points to convert = your annual cost per converted point

plus

Enrollment Fee/pt: (Enrollment Fee ($?) divided by 10 or 20 year ownership horizon / your points

= Your total cost per point.

1) Multiply your cost per point by Points Required for desired trade (from MVC chart) = Cost per trade

2) Compare the trade cost to the Open Rental market Cost. If savings > 0 then keep

3) If savings < $0 then discard (you will rent on open market)

4) Add up the savings over 10 years of trades for each desired trade. If > 0 then enrolling may make sense but also look at alternatives SO/HGVC/RCI/II cost/hassle.

or

B) If you plan to use your unit renting MVC Points Only

Cost of renting on open market desired MVC properties over 10 years. (# of properties * weekly rental from Redweek/Tug/getaways)
Minus
Cost of renting enrolled points (.65 avg * # of points for desired weeks over 10 years)
minus
Enrollment Fees: (Enrollment Fee ($?) + 10 years annual enrollment ($2050 ($205*10) + growth in fee)

= Savings If Savings > $0 then Enrolling may make sense but compare with alternatives e.g. using Staroptions/HGVC/II/RCI


Of course, many people would use a combination of A&B but one can build a spreadsheet to evaluate and customize to their personal situation.

Bottom Line: The decision to enroll will be bounded by your savings margin compared to the open rental market and cost of alternatives (using SOs/HGVC points/RCI/II). The savings are driven by the:

• cost of your underlying points based on MF at your property
• desired trading resorts
• how often you plan to rent or trade.

 

[kds4]

So, just returned from an enjoyable trip (prefer to not say where) and what I would consider to be the most beneficial 'owner update' I have been to. Very interesting discussion about the ILG acquisition and what changes are coming (or not coming) as a result. We talked about some important dates to remember, such as 2015 and October, 2019 (as examples). Told to expect a couple of significant emails this fall about DC changes coming that many owners have been wanting (as a result of the ILG acquisition). I realize that some folks may take the position that "if their lips were moving, don't believe it". That has often been my perspective as well during past presentations. However, I didn't just hear it, as it would take more than that to get me to buy more points (which I did). Stay tuned. This is about to get really interesting for MVCI owners.

Came across this post on Marriott Insiders last night from March 30, 2019 regarding the existence of a Marriott Destination Points buyback program. This post matches what I was told and the documents I reviewed regarding how the program operates for enrolled/trust points owners (whenever it is formally announced). I don't know how/where this person got their information, but it is another potential reference point. https://insiders.marriott.com/message/279664?commentID=279664#comment-279664. Scroll to the bottom of the thread to read the post.

"Marriott does have a buy-back/resale program. Owners with resort weeks and Destination Points can convert their resort weeks to Destination Points. Then, sell back the combined Destination Points."

 

[pchung6]

Came across this post on Marriott Insiders last night from March 30, 2019 regarding the existence of a Marriott Destination Points buyback program. This post matches what I was told and the documents I reviewed regarding how the program operates for enrolled/trust points owners (whenever it is formally announced). I don't know how/where this person got their information, but it is another potential reference point. https://insiders.marriott.com/message/279664?commentID=279664#comment-279664. Scroll to the bottom of the thread to read the post.

"Marriott does have a buy-back/resale program. Owners with resort weeks and Destination Points can convert their resort weeks to Destination Points. Then, sell back the combined Destination Points."

You are searching for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms one's preexisting beliefs or hypotheses. This is called Confirmation Bias. I hope you can listen and please RESCIND NOW. You can always buy your points back after the announcement and price won't go up.

 

[Fasttr]

Came across this post on Marriott Insiders last night from March 30, 2019 regarding the existence of a Marriott Destination Points buyback program. This post matches what I was told and the documents I reviewed regarding how the program operates for enrolled/trust points owners (whenever it is formally announced). I don't know how/where this person got their information, but it is another potential reference point. https://insiders.marriott.com/message/279664?commentID=279664#comment-279664. Scroll to the bottom of the thread to read the post.

"Marriott does have a buy-back/resale program. Owners with resort weeks and Destination Points can convert their resort weeks to Destination Points. Then, sell back the combined Destination Points."

His comment about resale MF's in point 2 bullet 3 makes me believe he does not really know what is going on.

 

[Fasttr]

Came across this post on Marriott Insiders last night from March 30, 2019 regarding the existence of a Marriott Destination Points buyback program. This post matches what I was told and the documents I reviewed regarding how the program operates for enrolled/trust points owners (whenever it is formally announced).[/U][/I]

Curious if during your conversation, they hinted at what price the point buy backs would take place... or even a potential range.

 

[JIMinNC]

Thanks all for the very helpful information.

So if I understand the discussion so far, a basic formula to evaluate whether to enroll is this:


A) If you plan to Convert Points to Use for Trades

MF/# points to convert = your cost per point converted

plus

Enrollment Fee/pt: (Enrollment Fee ($?) + 10 years annual enrollment ($2050 ($205*10) + growth in fee)/ your points value = Cost per point of enrollment fee

= Your total cost per point.

1) Multiply your cost per point by Points Required for desired trade (from MVC chart) = Cost per trade

2) Compare the trade cost to the Open Rental market Cost. If savings > 0 then keep

3) If savings < $0 then discard (you will rent on open market)

4) Add up the savings over 10 years of trades for each desired trade. If > 0 then enrolling may make sense but also look at alternatives SO/HGVC/RCI/II cost/hassle.

I'm not sure I understand why you are multiplying the $205 annual fee by 10 years? The annual fee is the annual membership dues, so it's paid annually in perpetuity just like a maintenance fee. If you want to understand your total cost/point then I think the proper formula would be would be (MF+annual dues)/# points. So, if you had a $1600 MF for 4500 points, your total cost would be (1600+205)/4500. That equals $0.40 per point.

Then if you see a reservation online that takes 3500 points (I think of them as reservations rather than trades, because you book it just like a hotel reservation rather than searching like you have to do for a trade), its $0.40 X 3500 = $1400 cost for that reservation booking. That is the cost you would compare to rental. So if rental costs $1800, your savings would be $400 on that booking.

You would also probably want to figure out how to handle the upfront cost of enrollment - the enrollment fee. In 2010 that ranged from $595 to $1995. So you would probably want to amortize that over 10-20 years. So if your enrollment cost was $1000, and if you decide to amortize over 15 years, then subtract $67 from your savings each year.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I'm not sure I understand why you are multiplying the $205 annual fee by 10 years? The annual fee is the annual membership dues, so it's paid annually in perpetuity just like a maintenance fee. If you want to understand your total cost/point then I think the proper formula would be would be (MF+annual dues)/# points. So, if you had a $1600 MF for 4500 points, your total cost would be (1600+205)/4500. That equals $0.40 per point.

Then if you see a reservation online that takes 3500 points (I think of them as reservations rather than trades, because you book it just like a hotel reservation rather than searching like you have to do for a trade), its $0.40 X 3500 = $1400 cost for that reservation booking. That is the cost you would compare to rental. So if rental costs $1800, your savings would be $400 on that booking.

You would also probably want to figure out how to handle the upfront cost of enrollment - the enrollment fee. In 2010 that ranged from $595 to $1995. So you would probably want to amortize that over 10-20 years. So if your enrollment cost was $1000, and if you decide to amortize over 15 years, then subtract $67 from your savings each year.

Good points. I picked 10 years as arbitrary horizon and recognize that it could be 20 years or more. I will also edit the prior post to update for the annual dues which should be equivalent to MF in perpetuity per your guidance.

 

[JIMinNC]

Good points. I picked 10 years as arbitrary horizon and recognize that it could be 20 years or more. I will also edit the prior post to update for the annual dues which should be equivalent to MF in perpetuity per your guidance.

Saw your edits...one suggestion...I would label the $205 as annual dues, not annual enrollment fee, so as not to confuse with the upfront enrollment fee that you list right below that. The annual fee is dues; the upfront fee is for enrollment.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

So hypothetically for our situation with WKORVN OF:

$3110 ($2700 MF EOY +205 annual dues + 205 annual dues (off year)) divided by 7450 points (Low end Napili/Lahaina Towers point value) = .417 cents per point cost

Now need to factor in the enrollment fee and amortize the cost of my unit over a time horizon.

 

[kds4]

His comment about resale MF's in point 2 bullet 3 makes me believe he does not really know what is going on.

I noticed that too, but chalked it up to someone who may understand some aspects of something but not others. There are plenty of examples of that out there, not just in the timeshare world.

 

[Ken555]

So hypothetically for our situation with WKORVN OF:

$3110 ($2700 MF EOY +205 annual dues + 205 annual dues (off year)) divided by 7450 points (Low end Napili/Lahaina Towers point value) = .417 cents per point cost

Now need to factor in the enrollment fee and amortize the cost of my unit over a time horizon.

Is it really $2700?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CalGalTraveler]

@Ken555 Sadly yes. II membership is included in that figure so it may decline a bit with the addition of annual dues.

However we bought this resale to stay there. Still a great deal if we use because if we lock it off we get 2 weeks Maui OF at $1350 a week. Compared to renting 2bdrm OF prime time is about $5000 / week plus we get top priority for view placement. During our last stay during peak season the front desk told us that were #1 in room priority because we were owners and booked exactly at midnight. We got one of the best rooms.

We've considered adding another week or a VSN trading unit but we also own 2 HGVC and use cash getaways and promo stays to stay elsewhere. Currently we have more options than we need. But if we see a sweet VSN mandatory deal may pick one up.

 

[JIMinNC]

His comment about resale MF's in point 2 bullet 3 makes me believe he does not really know what is going on.

Absolutely. Most of his counter arguments make no sense whatsoever. He also says that aftermarket resale weeks can only be used at that resort and can't be traded. Totally false. The comments are so slanted against aftermarket weeks, it makes me wonder if this guy is a sales rep.

Even in his first bullet, he says that owners with both weeks and points can convert their week to points and sell the combined points back to Marriott. That doesn't make sense. Why convert the week to points just to sell it back?

I do recall reading a couple posts in the last several months from posters on TUG saying Marriott offered to buy back their points. As I recall, the offers were somewhere around $2/point or a little more or less. I recall people saying a sure $2/point from Marriott might be a better deal than listing the points for $3.50 or $4 on the aftermarket and not knowing how long they would take to sell.

 

[CPNY]

Moderator Note: content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ

 

[TXTortoise]

Moderator Note: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ

Interesting...back link to source?

 

[pchung6]

Moderator Note: quoted content deleted. OP admits in later posts that it was fake. <--SueDonJ

Marriott is charging everyone just as we predicted earlier.