[2011] HRA and The Cove: Not Letting This Go

[DavidnRobin]

Not sure how to multiquote w/o extensive editing. but... I think I have it right - the HOA is claiming the contact/agreement provides access (and pays for it), and Atlantis is denying that for The Cove saying that it is outside of the agreement.

Seems like Atlantis has all the power here because they are actively denying access (right or wrong) of The Cove to HRA users, and only recourse is apparently for the HRA HOA to sue Atlantis unless they agree to allow access for what the HOA is claiming as their right according to the contractual agreement.

I really do not understand the arguments around what they advertise or not - seems what is written in the contract and how it is interpreted will be the deciding factor, BUT the problem is that the only resolve (unless Atlantis decides to play nice - which I doubt since they have no motivation, and tons of money and lawyers) is for the HOA to sue them - which as you know is problematic. The rest of the stuff (e.g. advertising) is likely tangental to the conflict.

It looks to me as an outsider that this is going to be a hard battle to win without $$$ support for the HOA - and that is hard to get unless forced - it doesn't appear to be a win/win situation. The HOA may have decide if access to The Cove is worth the battle ($$$) which apparently they do not. Good luck. I suspect even if fought successfully it will take quite some time to resolve - even if the HOA can find attorneys willing to take up the matter.

 

[siesta]

It's become clear to me that the HRA BOD will have to be compelled, in some way, to change their position.

A demand letter may be the compelling factor, one that mentions their fiduciary duty, and subsequent breach of that duty if they dont pursue the proper changes, whether its access to the cove amenities or a reduction in the access fee.

 

[DavidnRobin]

In re-reading Post #18 (from 2011) - apparently the HRA BOD doesn't agree with the position that HRA has rightful access to The Cove either - so now the battle has increased on 2 fronts. Given that the HRA BOD is essentially controlled by Starwood (assumed as it is this way for all other boards of SVO resorts) - and therefore pretty much can decide on actions and processed with impunity for the most part from the HOA as long as they stay within their interpretation of the CCRs and associated agreements - you are now in serious windmill tilting area. IMO.

 

[komosatp]

Not sure how to multiquote w/o extensive editing. but... I think I have it right - the HOA is claiming the contact/agreement provides access (and pays for it)

In re-reading Post #18 (from 2011) - apparently the HRA BOD doesn't agree with the position that HRA has rightful access to The Cove either - so now the battle has increased on 2 fronts.

I (for the benefit of all owners) am claiming we should have access. The HRA BOD ‘investigated’ the matter, concluded that my claim 'may have some merit', but that the expense of attempting a change would be too much with too uncertain an outcome.

I really do not understand the arguments around what they advertise or not

Atlantis is denying that for The Cove saying that it is outside of the agreement.

Not precisely. This dispute boils down to the grandfather clause in the access deed: "or any such other Hotel Rooms as may be intended to replace the Royal Towers Rooms as the Atlantis Resorts’ premier luxury Hotel Rooms." Atlantis is maintaining, for this purpose, that the Cove has NOT replaced “the Royal Towers Rooms as the Atlantis Resorts’ premier luxury Hotel Rooms”. But in every bit of advertising out there, promotes the Cove as exclusive and the ultimate in luxury. How can they have it both ways?

Given that the HRA BOD is essentially controlled by Starwood (assumed as it is this way for all other boards of SVO resorts) - and therefore pretty much can decide on actions and processed with impunity for the most part from the HOA as long as they stay within their interpretation of the CCRs and associated agreements

This is why I’ve been trying to find a lawyer on my own. To go around the HRA BOD.

you are now in serious windmill tilting area. IMO.

I know. That’s why these posts/my activities on this issue is infrequent….I look into it when I am in the mood or have downtime at the office.

their right according to the contractual agreement.
….
seems what is written in the contract and how it is interpreted will be the deciding factor, BUT the problem is that the only resolve (unless Atlantis decides to play nice - which I doubt since they have no motivation, and tons of money and lawyers) is for the HOA to sue them - which as you know is problematic. The rest of the stuff (e.g. advertising) is likely tangental to the conflict.

Regarding the contract:

It is clear from the original “Use and Access Deed” (dated January 27, 2000) that the possibility of a higher level tower being developed by Atlantis was considered and integrated into the access deed agreement:

Section 1.1.4 of the “Use and Access Deed” specifically defines what Atlantis Guest means in the context of the agreement and assures Harborside owners that their access will always be a premier level of access were Atlantis to build a more luxurious tower than the Royal Towers:

1.1.4: Atlantis Guests shall mean any guests, invitees or licensees of the Atlantis Owners, occupying Hotel rooms at the Royal Towers at Atlantis (“Royal Tower Rooms”), or any such other Hotel Rooms as may be intended to replace the Royal Towers Rooms as the Atlantis Resorts’ premier luxury Hotel Rooms. [Emphasis added]​

Furthermore, the original “Use and Access Deed” and the “First Amendment to Use and Access Deed” (dated August 29, 2006) define what access Harborside Owners and Guests have to Atlantis’ facilities. These specific agreements insure that Harborside Owners and Guests have all the same access and use rights as Atlantis hotel guests in the ‘premier’ tower of the resort. In the original “Use and Access Deed”, section 2.1 enumerates the rights Harborside guest will have:

2.1: …when a Permitted User is in occupancy of a Unit or any portion thereof, such Permitted User shall have the right, liberty and privilege to access and use the Atlantis Amenities in common with, and upon the same terms and conditions, and subject to the same regulations, as shall from time to time be generally applicable to Atlantis Guests.
​

It is clear from these definitions that Harborside guests were always intended to have access rights equal to the highest group of accommodations at Atlantis. Atlantis did not reserve the right to re-classify Harborside guests to anything other than ‘premier’ status. And ‘premier’ now means guests at The Cove, not the Royal Towers.

Well, here’s expansion one and Atlantis is already trying to cut lowly timeshare owners out of their uber-luxury amenities…

As I said in the first post:

If Atlantis continues to unilaterally classify Harborside owners & guests, then the Harborside associations can no longer consider Harborside’s access ‘premier’, because the level of access would be subject to Atlantis’ prerogative. One would have to view the future of the relationship between Harborside and Atlantis as uncertain, and this significantly lessens the value of our asset at Harborside. In addition, owners who choose to rent their units cannot in good-faith advertise Harborside units as having complete access to Atlantis.

Furthermore, the spirit of the original agreement (and the amended agreement) between Harborside and Atlantis was intended to secure permanent premier access by Harborside to Atlantis’ grounds and amenities. Atlantis should be erring on the side of giving too much access to Harborside owners and guests, not restricting us from certain amenities. If they do not view the relationship this way, then that fact intrinsically indicates how important it is for the various Harborside associations to not allow Atlantis to act unilaterally on these matters.

 

[komosatp]

Here's the original response from the HRA BOD in 2007:

 

[DavidnRobin]

Got it...
HRA owners (and visitors) are getting screwed
HOA BOD have decided not worth persuing
You do not have money/time to fight this - even if you find lawyers to take up cause
Likely no HOA support because SVO controls BOD decision-making and information flow

Time to sharpen up that lance...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_at_windmills

*****
Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, "Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless."

"What giants?" asked Sancho Panza.

"Those you see over there," replied his master, "with their long arms. Some of them have arms well nigh two leagues in length."

"Take care, sir," cried Sancho. "Those over there are not giants but windmills. Those things that seem to be their arms are sails which, when they are whirled around by the wind, turn the millstone."

—Part 1, Chapter VIII. Of the valourous Don Quixote's success in the dreadful and never before imagined Adventure of the Windmills, with other events worthy of happy record.

 

[komosatp]

Got it...
HRA owners (and visitors) are getting screwed
HOA BOD have decided not worth persuing
You do not have money/time to fight this - even if you find lawyers to take up cause
Likely no HOA support because SVO controls BOD decision-making and information flow

Bingo! You should be my editor....

 

[Ken555]

Here's the original response from the HRA BOD in 2007:

Interesting that they think it is further to the Cove pools than the others around Atlantis given the ability to take a shuttle to Cove from Harborside...and I would guess (having only walked it once) that the distance from the shuttle drop off location and the Cove pool is similar to that, or perhaps even less than, the distance to the Atlantis river pool.

But yeah...windmills.


Sent from my iPad

 

[HarborsideHappyGirl]

komosatp:

I completely agree with your concerns. It seems like the HOA Directors are unaware of their fiduciary duties and at least one of the (Atlantis Rep) doesn't understand the concept of Conflict of Interest.

While the Cove specifically isn't that important, the picking and choosing what Harborside owners can and cannot access is absolutely important.

This situation makes this Harborside Happy Girl less happy.

 

[okwiater]

Bumping back to the top.

Out of curiosity, how is Atlantis enforcing the policy and excluding Harborside guests from access? Are they looking that closely at the room keys?

 

[alexadeparis]

I believe that Cove guests are issued different bracelets than harborside guests.

 

[SMHarman]

^ That, different color bands and checkpoint staff on the relevant entrance areas.

 

[Quimby4]

^ That, different color bands and checkpoint staff on the relevant entrance areas.

I have heard of many Harborside owners using the Cove Pools and Cove Beach with out any problems. Can some Tuggers chime in here?

 

[komosatp]

I have heard of many Harborside owners using the Cove Pools and Cove Beach with out any problems. Can some Tuggers chime in here?

The large pool near the Cove, known as The Baths Pool, is available to everybody.
The Baths:

Cain at The Cove and The Cascades (pool between the Reef and Cove) are generally inaccessible, as you have to pass through security checkpoints to access the area, and they check for Cove/Reef wristbands there. But there are occasional reports of Harborsiders being able to use these.

Cove Beach is open to all, though there still is this language on Atlantis' website:

Step barefoot onto the warm sands of The Cove beach. This tranquil stretch of white and turquoise waters is reserved for guest [sic] of The Cove Atlantis.

 

[komosatp]

access granted to Harborside owners is based on a MAP, not on what some particular legal entity owns.
...
Back to The Map: basing Harborside owners' access to Atlantis on a map instead of an enumerated-list-of-attractions-owned-by-a-legal-entity is a very important detail. It means that Atlantis has the freedom to split up the resort without having to renegotiate the access deed with Harborside. But it also assures Harborside owners that a change in ownership won't impact what we owners can access.

No, the Cove is most certainly within the map area.

I've mentioned this map before, but I don't think I've posted it. In light of the goings-on in this thread (Grotto Pool now 'exclusive' for a fee).

 

[komosatp]

Cove Beach is open to all, though there still is this language on Atlantis' website:

The old language about Cove Beach is gone. It now says this:

Step barefoot onto the warm sands of Cove Beach. This tranquil stretch of white sand and turquoise waters is the perfect place to unwind at The Cove Atlantis.

 

[Helios]

This is a pretty sad way to generate revenue...how much are they charging per chair? Can multiple people access the pool if they share a chair to leave their towels?

 

[Lingber]

This is also one of my favorite spots at Atlantis! I would be very interested to know the fees and any info on how to book. Are they able to be reserved the day before?

One of my least favorite things about Atlantis is the difficulty in finding chairs if you go over from Harborside past 10:00am. We would gladly pay to reserve some chairs one or two days of our trip to avoid the hassle.

Hoping someone is able to post details. We go in just over two months and can't wait! :whoopie:

 

[Helios]

This is also one of my favorite spots at Atlantis! I would be very interested to know the fees and any info on how to book. Are they able to be reserved the day before?

One of my least favorite things about Atlantis is the difficulty in finding chairs if you go over from Harborside past 10:00am. We would gladly pay to reserve some chairs one or two days of our trip to avoid the hassle.

Hoping someone is able to post details. We go in just over two months and can't wait! :whoopie:

I guess you are right, paying for the security of having a chair is valuable. The cabanas located thought the Waterpark are nice, but they are pricey. I like the ones that can be accessed from the back of the baths pool and river, they feel pretty private and get good service.

 

[smitty2445]

We were there first week of November. No one was checking wristbands in the water park and had no problem finding chairs to sit in even after 10am at Cove beach or pool area. The Cove to us seemed the best beach out of all. I'm sure it wasn't as busy as earlier in the year.
The only private place they were watching was the bar and cabanas that were for owners only of the Cove. You couldn't sit at the beach area directly in front of the cabanas but could walk thru it.

 

[Lingber]

I guess you are right, paying for the security of having a chair is valuable. The cabanas located thought the Waterpark are nice, but they are pricey. I like the ones that can be accessed from the back of the baths pool and river, they feel pretty private and get good service.

Yes. To me it is worth it. One of my least favorite things on vacation is fighting the crowds and we always travel to Harborside during spring break or summer when the crowds are the largest. If they didn't bring in hundreds from the cruise ships, it wouldn't be so bad but since it is, I would gladly pay to reserve a chair in a good location for a couple of days. Still hoping for details

 

[okwiater]

I guess you are right, paying for the security of having a chair is valuable. The cabanas located thought the Waterpark are nice, but they are pricey. I like the ones that can be accessed from the back of the baths pool and river, they feel pretty private and get good service.

How much do they run?

 

[Helios]

How much do they run?

Pricey depends on your situation, I guess. Everything is expensive at Atlantis...IIRC, the base cost per day is about $150. There are add ons such as the cost of a small fridge, stocking the fridge, wifi, etc. Some cabanas are larger. The cost varies depending on the size. That's my recollection from January 2015. Add VAT to that and tips. Multiply times the number of days and it can add to more a large number...But you get your preferred seating.

 

[CPNY]

So I finally got a response to my letter. They actually sent the response a while ago, but to my prior address.

The gist of the response is that Atlantis/Kerzner is maintaining that the Cove has not replaced the Royal Towers as premiere because the Royal still has the most expensive room on property (Bridge Suite) and the greatest number of premium rooms and suites (Club Level). And the HRA board accepts that position.

The logical question that follows is: since our access is defined by this set of premiere rooms, shouldn't Harborside owners have access to the same amenities guests in these rooms have, since we owners are supposed to have access "upon the same terms and conditions [as] Atlantis Guests"? Which should mean access to the Club lounge, with free food and drink?

I'll figure out how to write this better in my next response. Any suggestions as to how to proceed are appreciated.

Looks like Atlantis concedes as to the cove being the premier luxury hotel lol. Also, why do we have to pay for gym access??

 

[komosatp]

View attachment 13511

Looks like Atlantis concedes as to the cove being the premier luxury hotel lol. Also, why do we have to pay for gym access??

Since somebody else revived this thread, there's a detail I haven't yet brought up in the nearly 12 year old issue.

As I posted before, Cove/Reef, etc. were clearly included on the map of phase III amenities for several years....I know it was on my purchase documents. But at some point in 2010, a different map was integrated into the ownership documents. If you're a HRA owner, you can pull up you governing documents on the website.

The new map does not include Cove and Reef land as part of the included amenities. You can see it on page 246. You can also see the old map on page 229.

I feel that this move by the HRA BODs was a bit sleazy, since they obviously agreed to this change AFTER this issue was brought to their attention and they apparently did not seek compensation from Atlantis for shrinking the area. Buy a lawyer friend advised me that they'd probably claim this was within their rights to make amendments for technical errors.

One good thing about the new map was that Cove beach is pretty indisputably part of the core land we should be allowed to access.