Are owners really owners?

[Fredflintstone]

The biggest advantage the timeshare industry says is ownership. But are you really an owner? Here are some reasons why I’m not sure.

1. From my research the timeshare resort can be sold to another party. You, as owner, are transferred as an “asset” because you help pay the bills. I don’t think you have a say. If I am an owner, I purely decide whether to sell the property to others.

2. I looked at the structure of deeds of a timeshare at Hilton Head Island. There is a Master Deed owned by the HOA in this case. The timeshare owners have a slave deed. They adhere to the Master Deed in this case. That doesn’t sound like owner to me. In the old days it was clear who the owner was and who the slave was.

3. As an owner, you can upgrade your property. Not in the case of a timeshare.

4. As an owner, you can do things to control some costs (I know, property taxes are out of your control). You can choose to spend more on things that makes the place you....not true with timeshare.


The one aspect I kind of see that dictates ownership is you have the right to sell your “ownership” to someone else. However, you can also sell a lifetime membership too and you don’t need to register anything with the County Clerk.

When I asked a sales person at Wyndham his thoughts on ownership, he said you don’t really own anything EXCEPT you OWN your vacation. I told him that’s misleading because all the industry uses is OWNERSHIP. So I asked him if I own nothing except a vacation, why the deed? He said that dictates the terms of owning the vacation. Huh? So, I pay 20 k plus to have rules on being an owner?! His answer was, “Yup, isn’t that exciting?”

There is one aspect of ownership I see. You get a deed that locks you into their rules and gives them teeth to extract MF from you.

So, I suppose what you get is a prepaid (hopefully nice) condo at a reduced rate and you can trade for different locations for an extra fee.

Perhaps not ownership, but getting a nice resort at a reduced rate.

Your thoughts?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Iggyearl]

Quite a thought pattern Fred. I agree. I don't think you can go into your "deeded property" and change the curtains. Or paint the walls. Or buy new appliances. If your "deed" is for points, you only have the RIGHT to a vacation, subject to the rules and regulations of the corporation. Plus, you are governed by the onerous "subject to availability" clause. That's why timeshares are "sold" not purchased. (except by savvy TUG investors)

 

[Panina]

You always make me smile. Your outlook on timeshares is the opposite of mine. You think of many scenarios to question them.

I really am a owner. I own high demand weeks, in highly desirable areas that have mfs that cost way less then renting plus because I am an “owner” it is my right to use it.

A non owner that wants to go where and when I own, has to be lucky to find the rental and gets the luxury of paying much more then I pay as an “owner”.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I haven't seen the master slave deeds at our resorts.

Owners can rent out their unit.

There have been TS HOAs where owners voted out the developer and they self govern like a condo.

TS ownership is akin to owning shares in the stock market. You vote but it's the blocks of institutional investors and executives who really have a voice on decisions.

 

[LannyPC]

The biggest advantage the timeshare industry says is ownership. But are you really an owner?

It's kind of funny. The first TS sales presentation we attended, the sales person emphasized one difference between hotels and TSs is that you own instead of rent. It's kind of like houses. Why rent when you can own? Or other tag lines that companies use to entice home renters to buy real estate is "Stop paying your landlord's mortgage."

But I guess all my above drivel didn't really answer you question, did it?

 

[pianodinosaur]

We returned to The Royal Islander in June, 2019. The tri-Royals were no more! The lease on the property that had been The Royal Mayan had expired and a new company took it over. The owners at The Royal Mayan were evicted. Fortunately, the Royals gave the evicted owners membership in The Royal Sands. The Royal Caribbean was still there.

Holiday Inn Vacations purchased Silverleaf. The owners at Silverleaf seem very upset with some of the changes that have been made. HIVC is trying to pressure the Silverleaf owners into purchasing upgrades if they want to continue to have the same benefits they had prior to the HIVC buyout.

There is a great deal of discussion about Diamond trying to purchase Hilton Grand Vacations. Diamond purchased Club-Intrawest but I really don’t know how that has affected the owners who now find themselves owners at Embarc. However, as an HGVC owner, this is very worrisome.

I enjoy timesharing. Unfortunately, it is no longer clear to me what ownership really means in this era of corporate raiders.

 

[WVBaker]

Fred,

I don't know if I would consider them "Slave Deeds". At least least not in the truest definition of the term. In real estate law, the Deed we all possess is known as a "Shared Deed", while that piece of paper you hold may be identified as a "Warranty Deed." Even though you own a "Deed" and hold that piece of paper, it's not like "normal" real estate.

What our shared Deed means is that the ownership is divided among all the owners of the resort. Every owner is deeded a specified week or weeks, that they can use the property or unit. Each unit, as you know, could in fact have 52 different owners.

I think the best explanation I've heard is, if you were to own a home and you willed that home to all of your children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. They all have a Deed , but in order to change anything in that home they must all agree before they do so.

 

[WinniWoman]

Heck- you never really own your own home either. Pay the annual taxes or else you are out! Want to put on an addition or do whatever else in your home- you have to get permission from the town government!

 

[Ironwood]

We who have had deeded ownership for many many years, have come to know "timeshare owners have a slave deed" as you so succinctly put it!

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Each timeshare is different. My deed at Bay Club gives me a fractional interest on the land, as well as the week. (I left out the unit number for personal privacy)

If I may quote from the Deed itself.

"An undivided 2/102 interest in the following:

Apartment #--- (Hereafter called "the Apartment") compromising a portion of the "BAY CLUB AT WAIKOLOA BEACH RESORT", a condominium project, (hereinafter called The Project as described in and established by Declaration of Condominium Property Regime dated November 28, 1990, recorded in the Bureau Of Conveyances of the State Of Hawaii as document number (omitted) . . .

TOGETHER WITH the following appurtenant easements:

(Provides easements for modifications and repairs.)

An undivided 0.6530% interest in all common elements of The Project, including the land upon which said Project is located as established for said Apartment by the Declaration, as Amended. . . . .

and

The exclusive right to reserve and then use for one week Use Period (Annual). . (various other periods defined) . . said Apartment or any other apartment in the Bay Club Ownership Program of the same Unit Type. . .

(All clauses have amendment riders, and various easement exceptions, and acknowledge the the State of Hawaii owns all mineral rights (which is correct for all property in Hawaii))

 

[CalGalTraveler]

We just leased a car for the first time vs. owning. Technically we don't own the pink slip and we cannot modify the car. But we pay for insurance, cleaning, maintenance, DMV registration, and could sell the lease to others. Plus all the other trappings of ownership. We must return the car after the lease expires but also have the option to buy at that time. Fuzzy.

Millennials have placed a question mark on what ownership really means. The questionable value of owning (plus the nosebleed cost in many locations) has caused many to opt for renting instead of owning a home. This mindset has also given to the rise of the shared economy with AirBnB, Uber etc.

 

[tony_i]

I agree with Panina, and that is a great example. The problem is mostly with how the rules and policies are written on some timeshares that makes you wonder if you are really an owner. However, this is why is import to review and understand what is it that you are acquiring.

On some of your points, there should be a managing board for the resort, and you as an owner can make yourself eligible to be on the board and make these decisions. You as an owner can also vote on issues or trust someone on the board to make them for you. Then you have developers on the board too, so they owe their investment in the property. This is what is usually sold to another developer. You would not have this issue if 100% of the units are not owned by the developer (depending on what is written). Furthermore, a board that no longer has a developer in its board can agree to let a developer like HICV or HGVC manage their property and handle sales of units that the association might still own, this does not change anything in the unit you own, and in exchange they can provide you with access to their club, but again, does not change anything on what you own.

I think you might confusing what a club membership provides with what a deeded unit is. A club membership being from a developer can probably control a lot of the aspects of the resorts and make changes to what is not written on the resort policies... The way I see my units would be owning a property outside your home state. Do you want to do maintenance yourself? Do you want to rent it by the week and clean it yourself? Do you want to collect payments? It would be pretty hard and time consuming. So you find a handyman for repairs and be on call, a cleaning company after every week rents, and a realtor or managing company to deal with payments and reservation, does that sound like something a timeshare does?

Timeshares have a bad rep, and that is why we get good value when we purchase resale. Developers are getting smarter, and they are moving more into the trust points type of system, where you will not own a specific week. I could see the next 5 years, those fixed week at desirable locations, like Panina described, gaining value as developers convert more and more units into trust.

Those are my thoughts.

 

[goaliedave]

We just leased a car for the first time vs. owning. Technically we don't own the pink slip and we cannot modify the car. But we pay for insurance, cleaning, maintenance, DMV registration, and could sell the lease to others. Plus all the other trappings of ownership. We must return the car after the lease expires but also have the option to buy at that time. Fuzzy.

Millennials have placed a question mark on what ownership really means. The questionable value of owning (plus the nosebleed cost in many locations) has caused many to opt for renting instead of owning a home. This mindset has also given to the rise of the shared economy with AirBnB, Uber etc.

agree 100%. Diamond is leading the change to experience-tied accom... soon gone are the old people who sit around the pool deck hot tub and restaurant. Airbnb is king. Owning real estate and cars is so last century.

Sent from my SM-J327W using Tapatalk

 

[goaliedave]

agree 100%. Diamond is leading the change to experience-tied accom... soon gone are the old people who sit around the pool deck hot tub and restaurant. Airbnb is king. Owning real estate and cars is so last century.

Sent from my SM-J327W using Tapatalk

last spring I used turo (Airbnb for cars) and it was half price of rental and more convenient.

Sent from my SM-J327W using Tapatalk

 

[CalGalTraveler]

agree 100%. Diamond is leading the change to experience-tied accom... soon gone are the old people who sit around the pool deck hot tub and restaurant.

Sent from my SM-J327W using Tapatalk

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[JohnPaul]

I think your view of ownership is oversimplified.

Many home ownerships come with CC&R's that greatly limit what you may do with your property despite the fact that you own it.

If you own a full ownership condo there are a lot of things that are regulated by as well as paid for by the HOA but you still own your condo. Other than joining your condo board you don't have much control over those HOA items or their costs.

I don't know where you got the idea that a timeshare can be sold without the owner's input. Management can be changed. Non-HOA parts of the property (restaurants etc) can be sold. The timeshare (entire property) sales that I am aware of required owner votes usually after the resort came into financial problems. (Granted you could vote no and be out voted.)

And lastly, many "points" ownership such as Worldmark and Vacation Internationale hold the property in a trust or other instrument and one typically has a .00xxxxxxx % ownership in that trust. I don't "own nothing" as is so often claimed.

Overall, I don't know how big a deal "ownership" is as long as there are proper safeguards to my ongoing use but considering things from a different perspective never hurts.

 

[chapjim]

<snip> I don't think you can go into your "deeded property" and change the curtains. Or paint the walls. Or buy new appliances. If your "deed" is for points, you only have the RIGHT to a vacation, subject to the rules and regulations of the corporation. Plus, you are governed by the onerous "subject to availability" clause. That's why timeshares are "sold" not purchased. (except by savvy TUG investors)

Maybe if you owned all 52 weeks, you could change the curtains. A review of "undivided interest" may help, too.

 

[goaliedave]

Can you elaborate on this?

The big companies are all moving to a 10 year term product (think life insurance term vs whole life). As boomers become poorer in money or health or have to support their kids, they are trying to dump their perennial ts with little luck. 10 or 20 years from now most will be dead and so will the product.

Here's a video from 18 months ago describing what Diamond is doing. Thete closing rates are double. I've been to a dozen events, they are awesome.

Sent from my SM-J327W using Tapatalk

 

[goaliedave]

The big companies are all moving to a 10 year term product (think life insurance term vs whole life). As boomers become poorer in money or health or have to support their kids, they are trying to dump their perennial ts with little luck. 10 or 20 years from now most will be dead and so will the product.

Here's a video from 18 months ago describing what Diamond is doing. Thete closing rates are double. I've been to a dozen events, they are awesome.

Sent from my SM-J327W using Tapatalk

Diamond also has escorted journeys for members, found this video.

they make most of their money now from experiences rather than real estate. everyone from Airbnb to expedia to airlines, etc is into experiences.

Sent from my SM-J327W using Tapatalk

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Shrug. . . What do experiences buy you as you reach retirement? Capital goods have values that span generations. (Not that I consider a timeshare a capital good. . . )

 

[pedro47]

I am a timeshare resort owner. 30 years plus. But I,am still learning.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I put timeshares under the experiences category. Can't bank on that for retirement savings. However owning real estate since our mid 20s has assured our retirement so we can enjoy more experiences.

 

[WinniWoman]

Thing is, if owning a timeshare got you more exclusive resort privileges than the retail renters, I could see a benefit. But not the case anymore.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Thing is, if owning a timeshare got you more exclusive resort privileges than the retail renters, I could see a benefit. But not the case anymore.

Once again, this depends on the timeshare (or timeshare system), or what you define as a privilege.

HGVC give a preference window for booking for owners of any particular timeshare that is owned. Only once this window is closed, do exchangers get access for booking. I consider this a benefit/privilege, and a valuable one. No "the weeks are already booked, but if you use points (at a net loss) you can book it, thirty minutes after the booking window opens" - a la Marriott.

 

[WinniWoman]

Once again, this depends on the timeshare (or timeshare system), or what you define as a privilege.

HGVC give a preference window for booking for owners of any particular timeshare that is owned. Only once this window is closed, do exchangers get access for booking. I consider this a benefit/privilege, and a valuable one. No "the weeks are already booked, but if you use points (at a net loss) you can book it, thirty minutes after the booking window opens" - a la Marriott.

Ok. So what else?

I own fixed weeks and no jumping through hoops to book what I already "own". But a non owner can just make a phone call and rent something as well, with no future commitments.