Bought Westin - good incentives do you think i should rescind?

[CalGalTraveler]

That was a good deal then (just under 10% of retail), but hardly what I would call "worthless". The winning bid was more than most of the prized SVV weeks go for.

I'm all for the OP rescinding. It was a bad and overpriced deal. All I'm saying is that there are some good things about Westin Flex that make it attractive for certain purposes (for me Sheraton Flex is a completely different discussion).

Okay perhaps it was hyperbole to say "next to nothing." But instantly losing more than $50k was my point.

Flex may prove itself over time, but better to wait and see.

MVC DC initially had the same concerns about inventory but owners are now stating after 9 years that they can get the inventory they want. However this was with the assistance of deeded owners enrolling their properties into the trust inventory pool. From what I can see, Flex doesn't offer deeded owners enrollment. Perhaps because SOs already exist so no value prop. MVC had no SO points program so different situation.

Perhaps they could offer flex enrollment to voluntary resale owners similar to MVC deeded weeks that can use their week or opt to enroll for the year for points in their trust program. That would increase Flex inventory. But not sure what % of Vistana owners are voluntary resale

Who knows? Perhaps MVC will change Flex completely and make it part of the DC program. That would add significant value. i.e. stay with SO program or move to Flex/DC and gain access to Flex inventory plus access to MVC inventory system. IMO, I still wouldn't give up grandfathered mandatory to do this because we own where we want to go and will rarely trade given high MF. May be good option for voluntary traders.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Does anyone know if you can rent Flex points? An attractive feature of the MVC DC program is you can easily rent out your points (without the headache of being a landlord = instant cash for your points transfer), or you can buy a base package and rent the points you need from other owners to minimize your capital risk and annual MF obligation in the system.

 

[jabberwocky]

Does anyone know if you can rent Flex points? An attractive feature of the MVC DC program is you can easily rent out your points (without the headache of being a landlord = instant cash for your points transfer), or you can buy a base package and rent the points you need from other owners to minimize your capital risk and annual MF obligation in the system.

No rental of Flex points is possible at this time and given the history I don't see Vistana adopting this in the near future. Personally I would love this option.

 

[DannyTS]

No rental of Flex points is possible at this time and given the history I don't see Vistana adopting this in the near future. Personally I would love this option.

I just noticed that you do own Westin Flex. How is the availability for you so far?

 

[jabberwocky]

I just noticed that you do own Westin Flex. How is the availability for you so far?

LOL - my Flex package is extremely new and just popped up in my online account last week so I haven't had a chance to take it for a spin. I'll post about my deal and what I've in a different thread once everything gets finalized with Vistana since there are a few moving pieces to this and I don't want them to pull anything if they figure out who I am . I must say so far I've been happy with the deal I struck since it will meet our needs for the foreseeable future (and no I won't rescind ).

Through the process I got to see a bit of the inventory (although I would have preferred a bit more detail I didn't have the time to invest right now). By resort here are the number of weeks (as a caveat note it doesn't break these down by 1BR, studio, 2BR etc). Also as everyone knows the Hawaii weeks are all single-season and will not be OF or event weeks as those are not put into the trust.

Hawaii Weeks:
WKORV: 1101
WKORV-N: 1304
Nanea: 1872
WPORV: 1944
Total Hawaii: 6221

Desert Weeks:
WDW: 3422
WMH: 1305
WKV: 494
Total Desert: 5221

Colorado:
WRMV: 612

 

[DannyTS]

LOL - my Flex package is extremely new and just popped up in my online account last week so I haven't had a chance to take it for a spin. I'll post about my deal and what I've in a different thread once everything gets finalized with Vistana since there are a few moving pieces to this and I don't want them to pull anything if they figure out who I am . I must say so far I've been happy with the deal I struck since it will meet our needs for the foreseeable future (and no I won't rescind ).

Through the process I got to see a bit of the inventory (although I would have preferred a bit more detail I didn't have the time to invest right now). By resort here are the number of weeks (as a caveat note it doesn't break these down by 1BR, studio, 2BR etc). Also as everyone knows the Hawaii weeks are all single-season and will not be OF or event weeks as those are not put into the trust.

Hawaii Weeks:
WKORV: 1101
WKORV-N: 1304
Nanea: 1872
WPORV: 1944
Total Hawaii: 6221

Desert Weeks:
WDW: 3422
WMH: 1305
WKV: 494
Total Desert: 5221

Colorado:
WRMV: 612

congrats on the purchase!
On the surface, the inventory does not look bad to me so I hope you will be very happy. As you promised please post details when you are ready to do it. I just read your 2016 "Thank you TUG" post and I loved your story. I also feel very grateful to TUG, we now own several resale Vistana weeks, early last year before discovering TUG we had none! We are very happy with our timeshares so far and slowly but surely we are convincing friends to look at the resale market themselves.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Congrats! Look forward to the details of your final deal. If it's similar to your other post with a requal and low MF, it sounds interesting compared to resale alternatives for your situation.

In the future, Flex will become especially interesting if they merge with MVC DC inventory and allow point rentals.

If we divide the numbers by 50 weeks, we get the following number of units:

Hawaii Weeks:
WKORV: 1101 / 22 units (IV only)
WKORV-N: 1304 / 26 units (IV only)
Nanea: 1872 / 37 units (IV only)
WPORV: 1944 / 39 units
Total Hawaii: 6221 / 124 units

Desert Weeks:
WDW: 3422 / 68 units
WMH: 1305 / 26 units
WKV: 494 / 10 units
Total Desert: 5221 / 104 units

Colorado:
WRMV: 612 / 12 units

If someone can overlay the total # of units in each resort that will give us a back of the envelope percentage of each resort that is in Flex so far. (If we could be assured of plentiful ski weeks in Colorado or MVC we'd buy in a heartbeat.)

 

[jabberwocky]

MVC DC initially had the same concerns about inventory but owners are now stating after 9 years that they can get the inventory they want. However this was with the assistance of deeded owners enrolling their properties into the trust inventory pool. From what I can see, Flex doesn't offer deeded owners enrollment. Perhaps because SOs already exist so no value prop. MVC had no SO points program so different situation.

Perhaps they could offer flex enrollment to voluntary resale owners similar to MVC deeded weeks that can use their week or opt to enroll for the year for points in their trust program. That would increase Flex inventory. But not sure what % of Vistana owners are voluntary resale

Who knows? Perhaps MVC will change Flex completely and make it part of the DC program. That would add significant value. i.e. stay with SO program or move to Flex/DC and gain access to Flex inventory plus access to MVC inventory system. IMO, I still wouldn't give up grandfathered mandatory to do this because we own where we want to go and will rarely trade given high MF. May be good option for voluntary traders.

The SO system creates a few complexities relative to the DC system and you're right that there is be little value proposition for those with developer-bought weeks or mandatory deeds to put their deeds into flex since they already have a good exchange option embedded with their week that voluntary resale owners don't have. If Westin Flex would have enrolled weeks similar to MVC Deeded weeks this would then create two classes of SO's tied to weeks (those who can book immediately at 12 months vs. 8 months) though perhaps without the skim. I can't see them doing this.

Building Flex inventory will take some time and the bulk addition of Nanea will certainly help (as well ROFR on several of the Westin properties - good for us with mandatory deeds as well).

 

[jabberwocky]

Congrats! Look forward to the details of your final deal. If it's similar to your other post with a requal and low MF, it sounds interesting compared to resale alternatives for your situation.

It's pretty close - but I was able to get a significant improvement in a couple of ways. The price stayed fixed but I got a few incentives that could be worth a fair bit personally.

 

[controller1]

Westin flex is close to $0.2 per point (MF). SVV Bella 2 bdr platinum (mandatory) is $0.15 per SO.

It's the controller in controller1 that is coming out. You need to move your decimal points to the left. Westin Flex is close to $0.02/SO and likewise the SVV . . is $0.015/SO.

 

[vacationtime1]

Congrats! Look forward to the details of your final deal. If it's similar to your other post with a requal and low MF, it sounds interesting compared to resale alternatives for your situation.

In the future, Flex will become especially interesting if they merge with MVC DC inventory and allow point rentals.

If we divide the numbers by 50 weeks, we get the following number of units:

Hawaii Weeks:
WKORV: 1101 / 22 units (IV only)
WKORV-N: 1304 / 26 units (IV only)
Nanea: 1872 / 37 units (IV only)
WPORV: 1944 / 39 units
Total Hawaii: 6221 / 124 units

Desert Weeks:
WDW: 3422 / 68 units
WMH: 1305 / 26 units
WKV: 494 / 10 units
Total Desert: 5221 / 104 units

Colorado:
WRMV: 612 / 12 units

If someone can overlay the total # of units in each resort that will give us a back of the envelope percentage of each resort that is in Flex so far. (If we could be assured of plentiful ski weeks in Colorado or MVC we'd buy in a heartbeat.)

Is there any way to know how many of those desert weeks are winter weeks vs summer weeks? Because those summer weeks don't count as much of anything (except to increase MF's).

All Westin Hawaii weeks float 1-50, so no seasonality issues there.

 

[DannyTS]

It's the controller in controller1 that is coming out. You need to move your decimal points to the left. Westin Flex is close to $0.02/SO and likewise the SVV . . is $0.015/SO.

you are correct!

 

[DannyTS]

Congrats! Look forward to the details of your final deal. If it's similar to your other post with a requal and low MF, it sounds interesting compared to resale alternatives for your situation.

In the future, Flex will become especially interesting if they merge with MVC DC inventory and allow point rentals.

If we divide the numbers by 50 weeks, we get the following number of units:

Hawaii Weeks:
WKORV: 1101 / 22 units (IV only)
WKORV-N: 1304 / 26 units (IV only)
Nanea: 1872 / 37 units (IV only)
WPORV: 1944 / 39 units
Total Hawaii: 6221 / 124 units

Desert Weeks:
WDW: 3422 / 68 units
WMH: 1305 / 26 units
WKV: 494 / 10 units
Total Desert: 5221 / 104 units

Colorado:
WRMV: 612 / 12 units

If someone can overlay the total # of units in each resort that will give us a back of the envelope percentage of each resort that is in Flex so far. (If we could be assured of plentiful ski weeks in Colorado or MVC we'd buy in a heartbeat.)

units built/ additional potential units

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Thanks @DannyTS so that means approx VOI percentage in Flex (excluding 2 Event weeks):


Resort / # Flex weeks / # Flex Units / Total Units / % Total Units in Flex

Hawaii Weeks:
WKORV: 1101 / 22 units (IV only) / 173 / 12.7% (% includes OV/OF units; higher % if just IV)
WKORV-N: 1304 / 26 units (IV only) / 258 / 10.1% (% includes OV/OF units; higher % if just IV)
Nanea: 1872 / 37 units (IV only) / 390 / 9.5% (% includes OV/OF units; higher % if just IV)
WPORV: 1944 / 39 units / 173 / 22.5%
Total Hawaii: 6221 / 124 units

Desert Weeks:
WDW: 3422 / 68 units / 220 / 30.9%
WMH: 1305 / 26 units / 158 / 16.5 %
WKV: 494 / 10 units / 149 / 6.7%
Total Desert: 5221 / 104 units

Colorado:
WRMV: 612 / 12 units / 34 / 35.3%

(Please check my math, as I did this in a rush while doing something else)

If my math is correct Flex trust holds the highest percentages in the following resorts relative to overall units: WRMV (35.3%), California Desert (30.5%, 16.5%), and WPORV (22.5% of units).

Seasons will make a big difference to the WRMV because if those are primarily mud weeks then not valuable. But if ski then highly valuable.

@jabberwocky and other Flex owners, please let us know how the season availabillity works out. Can you easily get ski weeks at WRMV? Or Whale season/Summer in Hawaii? or winter in the desert?

 

[needvaca]

"Seasons will make a big difference to the WRMV because if those are primarily mud weeks then not valuable. But if ski then highly valuable."

same concept with Scottsdale and Palm Springs (WDW, WMH, WKV)- Winter/Spring weeks (January-April) are highly desirable. Summer weeks are undesirable. I wonder how many of each season (Platinum, Gold Plus, Gold) are in the Westin Flex trust.

 

[DannyTS]

In the worst case scenario where the Colorado and the desert weeks are not high season, about 50% of the Westin Flex owners are not able to get a desirable week which is quite high IMO. Would that be the reason why the rep shared the units in the trust and not the seasons? This kind of incertitude consolidates my negative opinion the Flex programs.

@jabberwocky it is a good thing that the Canadian spring breaks do not typically coincide with the ones in US so you have a better chance to book if you want Hawaii.

 

[EnglishmanAbroad]

Thanks again everyone for the advice. Sent in the recission papers. Money going to a minivan instead

I would definitely rescind the minivan purchase

 

[goaliedave]

Thanks again everyone for the advice. Sent in the recission papers. Money going to a minivan instead

If you bought the minivan directly from the dealer, rescind! They are cheaper on resale!

Sent from my SM-J327W using Tapatalk

 

[CalGalTraveler]

LOL...@TUGBrian TUG should add a "Rescind" button similar to the "Like" button.

 

[jabberwocky]

In the worst case scenario where the Colorado and the desert weeks are not high season, about 50% of the Westin Flex owners are not able to get a desirable week which is quite high IMO. Would that be the reason why the rep shared the units in the trust and not the seasons? This kind of incertitude consolidates my negative opinion the Flex programs.

@jabberwocky it is a good thing that the Canadian spring breaks do not typically coincide with the ones in US so you have a better chance to book if you want Hawaii.

Data was from regulatory filings, which is why I place more credibility on them. Personally I would not have relied on the salesperson if they had given the data to me (and would not have passed on the info here if it was from them.)

I do have a bit more granular data that shows the number of SO's for the weeks that have been added to the trust subsequent to it's establishment - the problem is that I don't have the SO's from the original establishment and so thought that would be misleading. Maybe I should just post what I do have and see what people think.

Yes - for us Canadians we are somewhat lucky - our spring break is a bit later than a lot of the American weeks; however, sometimes it overlaps with Easter and the problem is that airfares shoot through the roof since everyone wants to get out of town. With our WKORV-N/Flex I'm looking at booking primarily summer since that seems to be the only time when my travel schedule will align with the kids (fall would actually work best for me in terms of work if we didn't have to worry about school).

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Smart to get the data from filings. From an absolute VOI perspective, the data indicates that one will find the most VOIs at WDW (3422 weeks); WPORV (1944) and Nanea IV (1872) within Flex so far.

This is consistent with what Tuggers have stated from casual observations.

 

[controller1]

Seasons will make a big difference to the WRMV because if those are primarily mud weeks then not valuable. But if ski then highly valuable.

@jabberwocky and other Flex owners, please let us know how the season availabillity works out. Can you easily get ski weeks at WRMV? Or Whale season/Summer in Hawaii? or winter in the desert?

I actually had a hard time making a reservation at WRMV during July 2020. There does not appear to be a problem making a Hawaii reservation during either whale season or summer at any of the three Maui resorts or WPORV. Of course, all of these attempts are at the 12-month reservation timeline.

 

[controller1]

units built/ additional potential units

View attachment 13903

In case it matters to the calculations made by @CalGalTraveler the 34 units shown for Westin Riverfront Mountain Villas are 2-bedroom lockoffs so there are 34 1-bedroom premium units and 34 studio premium units.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I actually had a hard time making a reservation at WRMV during July 2020. There does not appear to be a problem making a Hawaii reservation during either whale season or summer at any of the three Maui resorts or WPORV. Of course, all of these attempts are at the 12-month reservation timeline.

That is consistent with the data that shows in absolute terms the number of units is greatest in Hawaii and the lowest in WMRV even though Flex units at WMRV make up 35% of the total VOIs at that resort. WMRV is a much smaller resort than the others.

 

[Timothy Lee]

Used minivan!

Would have kept the bonvoy point option for 2 million in total