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Timeshares never came back after the recession of 2008. Resales are not recovering value.

JudiZ

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Excellent point about Disney, CalGal Traveler and Ralph Sir Edward, and one I hadn't actually thought all the way through. I don't think I will ever "get" the model developers use (aside from the upfront greed). It just seems that there should be a better way. No single easy answer. I guess it is as much a conundrum as Cindy's original question. Nonetheless, I will happily enjoy what I have until I can't use them anymore and then find a good home for them. :)
 

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The resale price of Disney is inverted to logic.

The product literally offers you less and less time as each year goes by and the contract gets closer to expiration, but for some reason people are willing to pay more for less time each and every year (and when you factor inflation it makes even less sense).
Disney has a monopoly on perks offered on property. These are meaningful perks, like early and late hours at park and access to superior transportation. The resorts off Theme parks do not hold value as well, and to the extent they do it is because people use those “cheaper” points to reserve at on property resorts.

DVC is far less expensive than standard Disney resorts which explains why I’ve been able to rent points out for double mf cost for a decade. It takes about 24 hours to rent and you get multiple inquiries.

By my calculations it took 8 years of renting to pay for my resale contract including all annual fees. Looking at current resale it would take 12-15 years.
 

rickandcindy23

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Disney is taking benefits away from resale, which is so disappointing for Disney to do that. Someone paid for that and their resale is affected. If only you could buy from someone who could add your name then take their name off, then you could keep those benefits as an "heir" of sorts.
 

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Disney is taking benefits away from resale, which is so disappointing for Disney to do that. Someone paid for that and their resale is affected. If only you could buy from someone who could add your name then take their name off, then you could keep those benefits as an "heir" of sorts.
Due to this change, have you seen the resale prices drop for DVC now? I would think they would be worth less with these new restrictions, but this is Disney, and Disney-heads seem to defy economic logic.

Kurt
 

rickandcindy23

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Due to this change, have you seen the resale prices drop for DVC now? I would think they would be worth less with these new restrictions, but this is Disney, and Disney-heads seem to defy economic logic.

Kurt
I haven't watched closely for resales in recent weeks. That announcement that new resale buyers (oxymoron for sure) will not be able to book the newest resorts should definitely impact resale. I didn't see any impact right after the announcement.

Wish I would have purchased VGC resale a long time ago. It was going for about $80 a point. You cannot touch a resale for even double that price. I love VGC. It's my absolute favorite.
 

PcflEZFlng

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DIsney didn't build timeshares to get all the profit up front with the sale. It built them to funnel people into the theme parks (and other associated Disney themes). Calculate the average spend (per day) at Disney theme parks, and figure out how much the timeshares actually gain Disney. You simply don't have that model with any other timeshare system.

How many people buy Marriott themed cartoons and movies, and want to have their picture taken with the Marriott mascot? (Or HGVC, or Blue Green, ect.)

Excellent points made above by many, but Ralph Sir Edwards' post really nails it. Disney is in a completely different universe, and positively brilliant in its marketing. If you have ever read any DVC forums and/or FB pages, while some posts are indeed about the resorts/villas/pools, many more conversations revolve around magic bands, annual passes, pixie dust, character meals, cast members, The-New-Attraction-du-Jour (this year that would be Galaxy's Edge), how quickly can I get from such-and-such resort to each theme park, etc. The volume and distribution of those comments are all one needs to know about where Disney is really earning its money. No other TS system (no matter how well-branded or well-located) could ever hope to come close.
 

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This is sort of off topic so forgive me but my daughter did two semesters at Disney as an intern when she was in college. That was ten years ago. She has applied for a few jobs since and she tells me that it doesn't matter that she graduated summa cum laude with a business degree and now holds two masters degrees. Nope. Every time, without fail, one of the first questions they ask about her work experience is, "what was it like to work at Disney?" That Disney pixie dust has some powerful mojo!
 

rickandcindy23

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JudiZ, that is so true!
 

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Agreed on the name-brands (Disney, Marriott, Wyndham, etc.) retaining some TS resale value. Not a lot of it but some, but then the entry price is frankly pretty high to begin with. My Texas resale (7 Coves) has been on TUG for over six months without so much as a nibble. Despite being the RCI points conversion red week unit that it is. Not even the scammers and other assorted TS charlatans have bothered me about it, which seems odd. And I am giving the week away. It's almost depressing really, especially considering that even the resort itself wants no part of the TS week, not even for free, even though they could conceivably sell it to someone else at a profit eventually. Have other folks had much difficulty in selling via TUG's site?
 

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Agreed on the name-brands (Disney, Marriott, Wyndham, etc.) retaining some TS resale value. Not a lot of it but some, but then the entry price is frankly pretty high to begin with. My Texas resale (7 Coves) has been on TUG for over six months without so much as a nibble. Despite being the RCI points conversion red week unit that it is. Not even the scammers and other assorted TS charlatans have bothered me about it, which seems odd. And I am giving the week away. It's almost depressing really, especially considering that even the resort itself wants no part of the TS week, not even for free, even though they could conceivably sell it to someone else at a profit eventually. Have other folks had much difficulty in selling via TUG's site?
I add to Redweek and FB TS groups as well. On TUG, I use the MarketPlace as well as The “ Free” Thread. I am thinking about EBay next.
 

klpca

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Agreed on the name-brands (Disney, Marriott, Wyndham, etc.) retaining some TS resale value. Not a lot of it but some, but then the entry price is frankly pretty high to begin with. My Texas resale (7 Coves) has been on TUG for over six months without so much as a nibble. Despite being the RCI points conversion red week unit that it is. Not even the scammers and other assorted TS charlatans have bothered me about it, which seems odd. And I am giving the week away. It's almost depressing really, especially considering that even the resort itself wants no part of the TS week, not even for free, even though they could conceivably sell it to someone else at a profit eventually. Have other folks had much difficulty in selling via TUG's site?
I agree with @SteelerGal above. Try to see if your resort has a facebook page for owners. Those people are already familiar with your resort and liked it enough to buy. For one of those owners, getting one for free is even better.

Make sure that your ad is positive in tone, lists all of the good things about your resort, and which company it trades with. If you have made good exchanges in the past, mention those too.
 
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rickandcindy23

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Agreed on the name-brands (Disney, Marriott, Wyndham, etc.) retaining some TS resale value. Not a lot of it but some, but then the entry price is frankly pretty high to begin with. My Texas resale (7 Coves) has been on TUG for over six months without so much as a nibble. Despite being the RCI points conversion red week unit that it is. Not even the scammers and other assorted TS charlatans have bothered me about it, which seems odd. And I am giving the week away. It's almost depressing really, especially considering that even the resort itself wants no part of the TS week, not even for free, even though they could conceivably sell it to someone else at a profit eventually. Have other folks had much difficulty in selling via TUG's site?
Wyndham does NOT hold any real value. You can buy it very cheaply with free closing. Probably 99.9% loss of value. That is not holding value.

Disney is far and above the best at retaining and increasing resale value. Then a distant second are Hyatt and Marriott. Marriott is not going up in value at all in 10 years. Hyatt was an unknown product for a while, but it's also losing value. Check eBay. Vistana, most is not worth even a dime. People are giving a lot of those away.
 

CalGalTraveler

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Usually, the name brands can be given away or sold for small resale value.

There are "Responsible Exit" programs for deedbacks with a fee for most of the majors. However, there have been reports of cherry picking valuable units leaving the low week, zero value units that have the exit issue in the first place, vulnerable to exit company scams.

The independents are wildcards. Some are difficult to give away. Others have resale value. I just heard from a poster on another thread who claims her mid-range independent on Pensacola Beach resells for $15k.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...ve-ts-to-daughter-in-law.295171/#post-2334271
 
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CalGalTraveler

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Three more factors affecting value:

1) Resales require cash upfront. It's difficult to finance a resale. That's why the developers (and new automakers) do so well selling timeshares and cars for $x/month. Most Americans don't have $10k much less $2k lying around for a discretionary purchase. When people buy a developer timeshare they don't think about it costing $60,000. All they focus on is whether they can afford the $xx per month. 40% of Americans cannot afford a $400 emergency expense.

2) Deteriorating Middle Class Economics: College and healthcare prices have skyrocketed while salaries have remained flat leaving less discretionary money in the budget. Lack of skilled workers, government regs and tariffs are causing prices of labor and materials to rise for home goods, repairs. Home insurance is also rising because of recent catastrophic events (fires, hurricanes).

3) Timeshare market saturation: MVC stated the majority of their buyers are now existing TS owners. We own three TS and are at our saturation point. Adding another will mean that it is a unicorn deal (free or ridiculously low cost) for a premium property. There are not enough new millennials and Gen X coming into the market for reasons cited previously.
 
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easyrider

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Even though resale values have not recovered the rental value for most timeshares has increased, imo. In 2008 the rent value was about a mf or a couple hundred over the mf. Today the rent value is much higher for many timeshares while the mf has marginally increased.

Better to rent a timeshare out than to flip one, imo.

Bill
 

rickandcindy23

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Even though resale values have not recovered the rental value for most timeshares has increased, imo. In 2008 the rent value was about a mf or a couple hundred over the mf. Today the rent value is much higher for many timeshares while the mf has marginally increased.

Better to rent a timeshare out than to flip one, imo.

Bill
That's true. I see no value in Airbnb or HomeAway or VRBO rentals. Renting a home is not the same as renting a place with pools, concierge, activities, and spas. What does a home offer but maybe a private pool that you don't even know how well it's maintained.
 

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I want to expand on my post #138 (Quoted)

Supply and Demand.

The timeshare development model is based on getting all the profit up front at sale time. (Except Marriott DC point, which demand a cut every time they are traded.) What happens after doesn't matter to the developers, except for how it would affect the ongoing sales process. (That's why branded tend to do better that non-branded. They always have an ongoing sales process, somewhere. Having prospects trade into another branded property that is junk hurts the image. . . )

Otherwise the developers DON'T CARE what happens to a finished property. They only care about getting those units sold, whether or not to people who are suitable for the timeshare concept or not. Sell that unit, SELL THAT UNIT!

The long term result is a lot of timeshares sold, and many more our there to people who aren't a match to the product.

There are more units out there than there are people who want to use them for their intended use. In any product/market, when that happens, the value goes to $0 (or less). (A generic comment. Some systems/properties managed to "beat the system" with a stable ownership clientèle. They are few and far between, however. There are other niches, if you look hard for them. . .)

But on goes the building of new units. . . .


Let's look at house building. To build a house, one has to acquire the land, buy all the building materials, and hire the labor to build the house. This costs lots of money. The builder expects to get the money back, plus a profit.

How big of a profit? 20%? 30% if the builder is lucky? It (relatively speaking) is a thin profit margin.

Say a build builds a house at $300,000 and sells it at $400,000. People will take that building risk for that profit. But if nobody is willing to pay more than, say, $250,000, nobody will build houses in that market. And builder are always in competition with previously built houses. (Why buy a new house at $400,000, when you can buy a house a few streets over, used for say, $200,000?) This provides a feedback mechanism to stifle booms and busts. It only gets broken when there is a sudden huge change in the supply.demand dynamic. (A huge source of money is suddenly added to the housing market, a la the 2000's, a huge copmany moves into a small market, or, OTOH, suddenly everybody starts leaving an area, massive factory closing, oil bust, ect.) Normally prices don't get too far out of align with building cost.

Timeshares are economically different. By slicing up the "pig" (the timeshare apartment), the total profit margin goes up to 60-80%. It's such a fat pie that companies, will lie, cheat, misrepresent, and otherwise do just about anything to get that signature on the bottom line. Just like a house builder doesn't care what happens to his houses, (other than to his reputation for building quality) once they are sold, neither does the timeshare developer. But fat profit margins cut both ways. They imply that the timeshare has little actual value. The developer doesn't care, as long as there is an endless stream of people to con into signing on the dotted line.

Literally, no stream of new buyers - no business. (The only except to this plan is Disney, who owns the timeshares and only sells RTUs, and uses timeshares to funnel people into the theme parks, with a fat profit <from the theme park>. I'll bet Disney keeps real close tabs on net demand for its timeshares and does not overbuild.)

No timeshare developer (Disney excepted) makes any significant money from already sold timeshares, the 5% or so they get off of the MFs is chicken feed compared to new timeshare sales. Marriott has rigged their DC system to where they get 20-25% of the current cost of DC points as extra profit every time DC points are resold. (Unbelievable rich profit margin - no sales staff, no inventory, almost no extra paperwork, all pure profit for doing nothing. . . But note, DC points owner don't directly own a timeshare, just access to a pool of timeshares owned by the DC.)

Answers? The only answer would be legislative, and quite frankly would end the timeshare business as we currently know it. That just isn't going to happen. . .
 

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Good advice (sell to current owners), and very salient points regarding the TS resale market. It looks to me like the glory days of TS ownership are way back in the rear view mirror. And Airbnb and its ilk may have sealed the deal in favor of renting over owning.
 

rickandcindy23

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Good advice (sell to current owners), and very salient points regarding the TS resale market. It looks to me like the glory days of TS ownership are way back in the rear view mirror. And Airbnb and its ilk may have sealed the deal in favor of renting over owning.
As I said above, renting a house is not the same as going to a resort. High-end accommodations at a nominal cost and an entire staff at your disposal. Timeshares are just better.

Some cities and counties are cracking down on home rentals. Neighbors are complaining about their unsafe neighborhoods because the house down the street has constant newcomers who stay just a few days at a time. It's getting tiresome for people to have to worry about who is staying in that house.
 
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frank808

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Usually, the name brands can be given away or sold for small resale value.

There are "Responsible Exit" programs for deedbacks with a fee for most of the majors. However, there have been reports of cherry picking valuable units leaving the low week, zero value units that have the exit issue in the first place, vulnerable to exit company scams.

The independents are wildcards. Some are difficult to give away. Others have resale value. I just heard from a poster on another thread who claims her mid-range independent on Pensacola Beach resells for $15k.

https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...ve-ts-to-daughter-in-law.295171/#post-2334271

I agree with you and can't see how Holiday Beach Resort Pensacola Beach FL is worth 15k resale value. Maybe retail straight from developer is what she is quoting.

Three more factors affecting value:

1) Resales require cash upfront. It's difficult to finance a resale. That's why the developers (and new automakers) do so well selling timeshares and cars for $x/month. Most Americans don't have $10k much less $2k lying around for a discretionary purchase. When people buy a developer timeshare they don't think about it costing $60,000. All they focus on is whether they can afford the $xx per month. 40% of Americans cannot afford a $400 emergency expense.

2) Deteriorating Middle Class Economics: College and healthcare prices have skyrocketed while salaries have remained flat leaving less discretionary money in the budget. Lack of skilled workers, government regs and tariffs are causing prices of labor and materials to rise for home goods, repairs. Home insurance is also rising because of recent catastrophic events (fires, hurricanes).

3) Timeshare market saturation: MVC stated the majority of their buyers are now existing TS owners. We own three TS and are at our saturation point. Adding another will mean that it is a unicorn deal (free or ridiculously low cost) for a premium property. There are not enough new millennials and Gen X coming into the market for reasons cited previously.

I am a Gen X and have bought quiet a few TS resale to try to help out :)
 

PigsDad

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I agree with you and can't see how Holiday Beach Resort Pensacola Beach FL is worth 15k resale value. Maybe retail straight from developer is what she is quoting.
I am not familiar with that resort specifically, but I do know that several beach front timeshares in Florida do have snowbird-season fixed weeks that sell for $10K+ regularly, so I really don't have any reason not to believe that figure.

Kurt
 

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Not familiar with this website: Sellmytimesharenow.com has two Holiday Bay Beach Resort Southside has week 1 and week 41 each listed for 15k.

Sellmytimesharenow also has Palace View by Spinnaker in Branson listed for 15k. Although I have seen these for sale on Ebay for $1.



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dioxide45

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Not familiar with this website: Sellmytimesharenow.com has two Holiday Bay Beach Resort Southside has week 1 and week 41 each listed for 15k.

Sellmytimesharenow also has Palace View by Spinnaker in Branson listed for 15k. Although I have seen these for sale on Ebay for $1.



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SMTN isa not a place I ever go to looking for bargains. They are a high fee upfront listing company and offer no pricing guidance to sellers that I am aware of. Hard to get someone to list something for big dollars if it can only sell for peanuts. That said, I suspect there are some peak season beachfront independant timeshares in Florida that legitimately have high asking prices.
 

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When I was at Via Roma, Bradenton Beach last November, a woman paid $9000 for a November Bluegreen week deeded there.
 

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I'm going back 10 years on you here but back then I owned a prime Summer Week in North Myrtle Beach and two prime Winter Weeks in Deerfield Beach Florida. All were Independents. At all three you could walk right out of your unit onto the beach. All were one bedroom. None were luxury but they were all decent and their MFs were relatively low. I paid around $2,000 each for them. I suspect that because of their beachfront locations and desirable time of the year they might sell for something similar today...

George
 
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