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Seriously Considering Taking the plunge to Silver VIP...

drepublic

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VIP Silver, Wyndham Clearwater Beach (326k Developer), Wyndham Bonnet Creek (74k Developer and 269k Resale) Wyndham Ocean Boulevard (220.5k Resale)
I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this post and backs up or refutes my logic. I welcome any and all criticisms ha ha.

I currently own:
326,000 Developer Points at Clearwater
220,500 Resale Points at Ocean Boulevard (the low maintenance fee contract)

We just need 74,000 developer points to make Silver VIP.

Wife and I from the beginning talked about going Silver VIP for various reasons. With the changes coming up we are considering making the move to get grandfathered in.

My Vacations Patterns for the next 10 years will go something like:
1. Spring Break Week in Clearwater (warmer weather than Panama City Beach at that time)
2. A midsummer Week in Myrtle Beach (ARP helps greatly) or Panama City Beach (ARP not needed)
3. Thanksgiving and/or Christmas in Orlando at Bonnett Creek OR Snow Ski Trip during this time.

I recently decided that I want Large Presidential Rooms at Peak Holiday Times at Bonnet Creek after meeting several large families there and after me seeing what was possible 10 months out to Thanksgiving this year (I could only book one 1BR Presidential and two 2BR Deluxes). I want that 4 BR presidential Thanksgiving Week and want to start making moves to get the points required. Wife is on board as her family lives in Florida and they love Orlando.

To me it would make sense to purchase the Developer Points at a Resort I own or plan to own so that has me looking at Clearwater, Ocean Boulevard, or Bonnet Creek.

I have spoke with Telesales in the past about a 74,000 purchase at Clearwater to go Silver VIP and they weren't even going to budge much at all on the retail price (225-250 per thousand range), so I called a sales rep I knew at Clearwater to see what he could do. I was told they wouldn't make any contracts at the 74k level and would have a minimum purchase of 105,000 points.

Now the Clearwater Sales rep checked over at Bonnet Creek and got back with me saying they can make a 74,000 deed at Bonnet Creek as there is so much more inventory there. Price is coming in around $15k ($200/1000 @ 74k points) which is better than what Clearwater would do even on a 105k contract.

I don't have any interest in owning small 74k CWA contract that won't stack with any of my other contracts for ARP reservations even though I know it's by far the best option for price up front....and they could tease me with Bonus Points.

When my kids are in college and beyond I may find myself taking less vacations and if that is the case I'd like to pair down my resale contracts and more than likely would pair down a Bonnet Creek and that seems easy to get rid of on Ebay. A low maintenance fee Ocean Boulevard seems easy to get rid of on Ebay and I'm taking the Clearwater Contract to my grave ha ha.

I may acquire resale contracts on top of a developer 74k contract at Bonnet Creek let me book 7-8 days 4 BR Presidential on Thanksgiving Week which would be around 231k-260k points, then MAYBE add another to would allow Christmas Week at Bonnet Creek (+200 on top of the 231-260).

Pretty much everything I'm booking will be 13 months out or 10 months out so I don't see me taking advantage of the VIP EXCEPT for the Guest Passes for family reservations or rentals should I not be able to use my points, not being nickle and dimed, and short notice trips (to Vegas or weekend getaways). We have benefited from being Temporary VIP's in using Guest Reservation for multiple rooms and upgraded a few times at Bonnet Creek.

Just don't want to kick myself 10 years from now when my kids are older and my wife and I could me more flexible in my travels. And on years when I can't use my reservations at holiday times at Bonnet Creek I could rent them with my Guest Certificates, or sent my kids off on college spring break trips and not be nickle and dimed on their guest reservation.

I understand the PIC option for going to higher levels of VIP but I got a feeling that will end one day and don't want to be stuck with a timeshare I can't get rid off or one I could never want to go to.

I appreciate everyone here on these forums. These are just my thoughts...and I welcome yours.
 
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ausman

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If you are going to be purchasing developer points , I think you are being short sighted to be ignoring the PIC option. Sure, Wyndham could do a lot of things to devalue ownerships and they have in the past made drastic changes to do so, but the PIC option exists today still. Even if it went away it is likely the benefit would be grandfathered. If not, you could roll with the changes and trade the PIC's in another manner (I owned one TS for over 17 years and never went to one TS within that system) or get rid of it, even if having to pay to do so. I don't see the fact that it could end one day as being a legitimate reason to avoid a PIC in your circumstances.
 
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T-Dot-Traveller

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Good Questions / Good way to get a wider thought process from other TUG members

Planning ahead-
 

bnoble

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If you are going to be purchasing developer points , I think you being short sighted to be ignoring the PIC option.
I agree with this. I would probably not pursue a developer purchase, even at the modest size you are talking about. But, if I were going to do it, I should stretch it as far as I could.
 

dgalati

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I appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this post and backs up or refutes my logic. I welcome any and all criticisms ha ha.

I currently own:
326,000 Developer Points at Clearwater
220,500 Resale Points at Ocean Boulevard (the low maintenance fee contract)

I recently decided that I want Large Presidential Rooms at Peak Holiday Times at Bonnet Creek after meeting several large families there and after me seeing what was possible 10 months out to Thanksgiving this

To me it would make sense to purchase the Developer Points at a Resort I own or plan to own so that has me looking at Clearwater, Ocean Boulevard, or Bonnet Creek.



Now the Clearwater Sales rep checked over at Bonnet Creek and got back with me saying they can make a 74,000 deed at Bonnet Creek as there is so much more inventory there. Price is coming in around $15k ($200/1000 @ 74k points) which is better

Pretty much everything I'm booking will be 13 months out or 10 months out so I don't see me taking advantage of the VIP EXCEPT for the Guest Passes for family reservations or rentals should I not be able to use my points, not being nickle and dimed, and short notice trips (to Vegas or weekend getaways). We have benefited from being Temporary VIP's in using Guest Reservation for multiple rooms and upgraded a few times at Bonnet Creek.

Just don't want to kick myself 10 years from now when my kids are older and my wife and I could me more flexible in my travels. And on years when I can't use my reservations at holiday times at Bonnet Creek I could rent them with my Guest Certificates, or sent my kids off on college spring break trips and not be nickle and dimed on their guest reservation.

I understand the PIC option for going to higher levels of VIP but I got a feeling that will end one day and don't want to be stuck with a timeshare I can't get rid off or one I could never want to go to.

I appreciate everyone here on these forums. These are just my thoughts...and I welcome yours.
I dont see a advantage of spending 15k to get to Silver VIP buying developer points. 15k can buy alot of gift certificates and pay for the nickle and dime expenses of short trips. If you were booking in 60 day window to recieve 25% discount you may see payback over time. If your going to book at 10-13 months out I see no payback on the additional sunk cost. I feel going the way of a pic and possibly getting to gold maybe your better option if you really want VIP and feel possible upgrades are needed. Just my 2 cents. Hitchhiker and Richelle can probably give you more information about how to PIC your way to VIP.
 
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cbyrne1174

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The OP made a good point about not wanting a PIC in his name. There is a reason why I'm the timeshare holder and not my husband. I'm a high school Chemistry teacher, so my income will always be crap. My husband already makes almost twice as much as me, so everything Wyndham is in my name only. If you are in a situation where one spouse makes significantly more than the other, you are much better off putting the financial obligations in the name of the person who doesn't make as much. Most states are common law states where you can't hold both spouses responsible for one of their debt.

I personally couldn't care less about my credit because my income is low. So if I had a PIC that I didn't want anymore, I would just default on it and let it foreclose. If they take you to court, they can only obtain a judgement for past due maintenance fees since there is no loan, but once they foreclose it, you're off the hook.

If you intend to keep your ownership until you retire, getting a PIC deed isn't the end of the world either. Once you have your house paid off and your cars paid off, what do you even need a credit score for?
 

dgalati

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The OP made a good point about not wanting a PIC in his name. There is a reason why I'm the timeshare holder and not my husband. I'm a high school Chemistry teacher, so my income will always be crap. My husband already makes almost twice as much as me, so everything Wyndham is in my name only. If you are in a situation where one spouse makes significantly more than the other, you are much better off putting the financial obligations in the name of the person who doesn't make as much. Most states are common law states where you can't hold both spouses responsible for one of their debt.

I personally couldn't care less about my credit because my income is low. So if I had a PIC that I didn't want anymore, I would just default on it and let it foreclose. If they take you to court, they can only obtain a judgement for past due maintenance fees since there is no loan, but once they foreclose it, you're off the hook.

If you intend to keep your ownership until you retire, getting a PIC deed isn't the end of the world either. Once you have your house paid off and your cars paid off, what do you even need a credit score for?

Never under estimate the need for a good credit score. A high or good Credit score is needed if playing the credit card companies for everything they offer. I know you like finding ways to travel cheaper. I have traveled using free airline miles and also have taken every cash back bonus available up to $1000 cash back offers on business cards. I have everything paid for and have never carried a balance on a credit card. With out a good credit score I would of never been able to travel for $0 cost over the last 10 years using airline bonus miles.
 

Richelle

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You’re right that PIC could end someday, but they would have to clear it with the shareholders first. PIC is a revenue stream for them that continues beyond the initial sale. When you enroll a week into PIC, in order to get the points, you have to deposit the week in RCI first. Then you give Wyndham that deposit in exchange for points. Wyndham uses that deposit, to book reservations and rent them out. I could see them being more picky about what they will accept or raising the points required to enroll, but I don’t see them dropping it altogether. At worse, they stop taking enrollments period because they have too many.

If you get a qualifying week, it’s best to choose a location you would want to go to, so you have an additional vacation option. You may end up deciding to ditch your points one day and keep the PIC week. I’ve only seen people lose their PICs for a few reasons. First, the resort falls into such disarray, that even RCI wants nothing to do with them and drops them. RCI sets the bar pretty low, so it would probably have to be really bad for that to happen. For this reason, it’s best to choose a silver or gold crown resort, as those resorts have to meet high quality standards to keep that status. Second reason is Wyndham or a non-qualifying system buys them. Wyndham bought a resort in South Carolina and those weeks were no longer eligible. Another person said their resort sold themselves to Diamond which doesn’t qualify. The owners of the resort have to agree to the sale. So you do have a say in the matter. So for that reason, do not ignore any correspondence from your resorts. My PICs are in the Vacation Villages resort system. The independently owned resorts are easier for Wyndham to buy, then ones that are part of a larger system. There is no guarantee it won’t get sold to Wyndham, but it would be a lot more red tape. Finally, if you no longer own your week, and Wyndham finds out, they will remove that PIC contract and your status may drop depending on where your at point wise.

I agree with Dgalati. Silver May not be worth spending $15k for at this point. With the point requirements increasing next year, it might be better to go straight Gold or Platinum, so you’ll be grandfathered in. If you try to upgrade to gold later, you’ll have to buy 400,000 points instead of 300,000. Also, $15k is way to much for that many points. Last check, 105,000 was going to $16,275. That’s CWA pricing of course, but you get more bang for your buck. Two 3 bedroom PICs will get you 508,000. That puts you at 834,000 points. To enroll two, you need to buy a minimum of 98,000 points. That leaves you 68,000 shy of platinum with permanent Gold for $16k.


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drepublic

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VIP Silver, Wyndham Clearwater Beach (326k Developer), Wyndham Bonnet Creek (74k Developer and 269k Resale) Wyndham Ocean Boulevard (220.5k Resale)
With out a good credit score I would of never been able to travel for $0 cost over the last 10 years using airline bonus miles.

I'm in this situation now with Skymiles cards. Makes getting to Vegas much easier ha ha.
 

drepublic

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VIP Silver, Wyndham Clearwater Beach (326k Developer), Wyndham Bonnet Creek (74k Developer and 269k Resale) Wyndham Ocean Boulevard (220.5k Resale)
Also, $15k is way to much for that many points. Last check, 105,000 was going to $16,275. That’s CWA pricing of course, but you get more bang for your buck.

I can't stack 105,000 CWA points with any of my existing or future contracts (Bonnet Creek) for ARP multiroom Presidential Suite reservations that I'm looking for. This contract will have little value to me based on my goals of getting "what I want when I want it" at Clearwater, Ocean Boulevard, and Bonnet Creek.

Two 3 bedroom PICs will get you 508,000. That puts you at 834,000 points. To enroll two, you need to buy a minimum of 98,000 points. That leaves you 68,000 shy of platinum with permanent Gold for $16k.

I hear exactly what you are saying. But after doing everything directly above is accomplished, and I am Permanent VIP Gold, I will have spent 16k plus whatever it costs to obtain the PICS contracts and STILL NOT BE ABLE TO BOOK a 4 Bedroom Presidential Room at Bonnett Creek on Thanksgiving or Christmas, and this will be a hard conversation to have with my wife...

I'll still have to go out and obtain those UDI Bonnett Creek Points (and I'm looking into having enough points for Christmas week 4 Bedroom Presidential in multiple contracts) and maintenance on that on top of the Maintenance on Two PICS on top of the maintenance on 105,000 CWA that will not work for any stacked Multi Room Presidential reservation at Clearwater, Ocean Boulevard, or Bonnet Creek.

I would rather the developer points go towards a stacked reservation ARP at one of my existing resorts. I'm just not a fan of owning any CWA points. And I would prefer to have all of my points in strategic places towards my goals right now.
 
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drepublic

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I want to publicly thank Jan for reaching out and offering her time to take a call with me (which I did). It was great hearing her perspective, but I think the higher level VIP levels benefit those who can be very flexible in their vacations, don't need ARP, and have time to devote and manage renting extra points. I am 39 years old and I am lucky to get 3 weeks vacation a year (spring break week, summer week, and Thanksgiving/Christmas week) each year, and I when I take those vacations I want to get "what I want, when I want it."

In addition to my day job I have an online coaching business that more than pays for my maintenance fees with Wyndham and makes timesharing for me even possible. So my time outside of day job is limited even more with that extra business.

Where I want to go at those times based on the room I want at those times requires ARP.

We have benefited from temporary VIP silver on a few rare short notice trips but I'm not going to plan anything big on a chance I might get a discount or upgrade. At higher availability resorts I like the option of booking extra rooms for family using a 25% discount to lower their cost to go to a nice resort. For example I make book a large multiroom presidential suite using ARP and use other points to book rooms for family....if if in the discount window I see availability cancel and rebook and save family members 25%. I honestly see me picking up Clearwater Resale contracts in 8-10 years time or adding more myrtle beach contracts or

My situation may change down the road...and I can unload my resale contracts then if needed and look into another timeshare system or look at PIC'ing to higher VIP levels with Wyndham. I like the flexibility of Wyndham and shouldering other trips with Wyndham, but honestly I'm not so sure about tying up all my vacation dollars in Wyndham's basket.
 
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dgalati

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I'm in this situation now with Skymiles cards. Makes getting to Vegas much easier ha ha.
I like flying first class at a $0 cost. It was a better deal before united changed the points needed to travel. Like all programs things change just adapt. Ink business offered 80k bonus points transfable 1:1 to united or southwest at no cost.
 

dgalati

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Bonus points not considered taxable by the IRS also
 
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cbyrne1174

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I was just saying that if you have a situation where one spouse makes enough money to get approved for whatever you need approval for, the credit score of the other spouse doesn't really impact anything.

You usually can get approved for things that you really shouldn't get approved for. I personally don't feel like people should own a house that is more than 3 times their annual income unless they have at least 50% to put down on it. A 2,500 sq ft 20 year old house is good enough for me, even though Zillow calculates that my husband and I can "afford" a $500,000 house with both our incomes when I return to work.

If you are worried about having a PIC or timeshare in your name, it makes sense to put it under the person whose income/credit score doesn't really impact what you need approval for.
 

Rolltydr

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I was just saying that if you have a situation where one spouse makes enough money to get approved for whatever you need approval for, the credit score of the other spouse doesn't really impact anything.

You usually can get approved for things that you really shouldn't get approved for. I personally don't feel like people should own a house that is more than 3 times their annual income unless they have at least 50% to put down on it. A 2,500 sq ft 20 year old house is good enough for me, even though Zillow calculates that my husband and I can "afford" a $500,000 house with both our incomes when I return to work.

If you are worried about having a PIC or timeshare in your name, it makes sense to put it under the person whose income/credit score doesn't really impact what you need approval for.

Almost 50% of marriages in the U.S. end in divorce. The rate is even higher for 2nd and 3rd marriages. In addition, the highest earner could lose their job by being laid off, fired, or due to illness or injury. God forbid any those would happen but if they did, I think it might be helpful for their partner to have a good credit rating in case they needed to finance something like a vehicle, furniture, appliances, not to mention housing.


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Richelle

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I want to publicly thank Jan for reaching out and offering her time to take a call with me (which I did). It was great hearing her perspective, but I think the higher level VIP levels benefit those who can be very flexible in their vacations, don't need ARP, and have time to devote and manage renting extra points. I am 39 years old and I am lucky to get 3 weeks vacation a year (spring break week, summer week, and Thanksgiving/Christmas week) each year, and I when I take those vacations I want to get "what I want, when I want it."

In addition to my day job I have an online coaching business that more than pays for my maintenance fees with Wyndham and makes timesharing for me even possible. So my time outside of day job is limited even more with that extra business.

Where I want to go at those times based on the room I want at those times requires ARP.

We have benefited from temporary VIP silver on a few rare short notice trips but I'm not going to plan anything big on a chance I might get a discount or upgrade. At higher availability resorts I like the option of booking extra rooms for family using a 25% discount to lower their cost to go to a nice resort. For example I make book a large multiroom presidential suite using ARP and use other points to book rooms for family....if if in the discount window I see availability cancel and rebook and save family members 25%. I honestly see me picking up Clearwater Resale contracts in 8-10 years time or adding more myrtle beach contracts or

My situation may change down the road...and I can unload my resale contracts then if needed and look into another timeshare system or look at PIC'ing to higher VIP levels with Wyndham. I like the flexibility of Wyndham and shouldering other trips with Wyndham, but honestly I'm not so sure about tying up all my vacation dollars in Wyndham's basket.

When it comes to your money, what matters is your opinion. Not ours. Do what works for you. I love Bonnet creek, but not a fan of the maintenance fees. If it’s what you want, then go for it. If you’re going to fork over a ton of cash, spend it on what you want. I only mentioned PIC as a way to get to a higher level of VIP without spending 10’s of thousands of dollars more. But if it doesn’t work for you, then it doesn’t work for you.


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Richelle

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Almost 50% of marriages in the U.S. end in divorce. The rate is even higher for 2nd and 3rd marriages. In addition, the highest earner could lose their job by being laid off, fired, or due to illness or injury. God forbid any those would happen but if they did, I think it might be helpful for their partner to have a good credit rating in case they needed to finance something like a vehicle, furniture, appliances, not to mention housing.


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We are going way off topic here but I will throw in that, according to the CDC, divorce rates are declining. I saw an article about it somewhere that said it was partly because people are waiting longer to get married and longer to have kids. In year 2000, the rate was 4 per 1,000 population. Now its 2.9 per 1,000 population. Can we get back on topic now?


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Rolltydr

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I agree, Richelle, it is going down, but that is still a lot of people in a country of 360 million. I just think it is shortsighted to think your credit rating doesn’t matter as long as your partner’s is fine.


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bnoble

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I hear exactly what you are saying. But after doing everything directly above is accomplished, and I am Permanent VIP Gold, I will have spent 16k plus whatever it costs to obtain the PICS contracts and STILL NOT BE ABLE TO BOOK a 4 Bedroom Presidential Room at Bonnett Creek on Thanksgiving or Christmas, and this will be a hard conversation to have with my wife...
Given this is your primary goal *and* you don't imagine taking much advantage of Gold benefits, I don't see the value in buying up to Silver via direct purchases vs. getting things with the right ARP rights on the resale market. $15K will pay for a lot of guest certificates.
 

JJVGHNC

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drepublic,
PIC seems the way to go, but that's ultimately up to you, but be sure if you PIC, do it the same time as you buy retail, so you won't have to buy retail again later. 166k
 

JJVGHNC

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Retail and pics gets you to a million. Talk to Brandon in telesales, had great offers last week, tell him Jeffrey said to call. His number:. 888-405-5061
 

Jan M.

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When it comes to your money, what matters is your opinion. Not ours. Do what works for you. I love Bonnet creek, but not a fan of the maintenance fees. If it’s what you want, then go for it. If you’re going to fork over a ton of cash, spend it on what you want. I only mentioned PIC as a way to get to a higher level of VIP without spending 10’s of thousands of dollars more. But if it doesn’t work for you, then it doesn’t work for you.


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Every timeshare purchase decision is personal based on that person and their family's vacation wants and needs and finances. He knows what he wants and what it will take to get it. Also in his case it's likely to be too many years down the road before he will be able to really take much advantage of the VIP/Privileges benefits. Who knows what those benefits will be in another 10 years.

We see people who build a platinum or PR account for their children and grandchildren or hopefully someday grandchildren. Everyone loves staying at the resorts and truly appreciates having what they have. Then there are times we see the children and grandchildren who apparently have never really used what their parents or grandparents have and have no interest in taking over the account when their parents or grandparents pass. They usually can't be convinced to keep the platinum or PR account no matter what we here on TUG tell them. That just seems beyond sad when there are so many people who would love to have an account like that given to them.

Sometimes we see people making or wanting to make financial commitments they can't handle and still be able to use what they bought. And on the opposite end of the spectrum sometimes we see people who are convinced they will get two weeks and a long weekend of vacation with 200k points and their family of four will be fine in a studio because that's all they want to spend to buy or on maintenance fees. First of all not that many resorts have studios. Secondly two adults and two teens in a studio is almost as bad as spending your vacation in a hotel room to those of us who have become accustomed to having two bedroom/2 bath units for a family of four. Most of us have read the money saving tips in the online articles and know they could likely give up one unnecessary expenditure and it would pay for them to buy and pay the maintenance fees for what they really need. Not every one is good at being realistic when it comes to money. Most of us are somewhere in the middle of those two types.

When you have little kids putting a large amount of money into getting a VIP account might not be the best thing for every family. Kids are only little once and it goes by fast when you look back. If it means money will be tight for a few years or you will have less money to spend taking vacations and building memories then it doesn't seem worth sacrificing those precious years.

I'd guess it's pretty safe to say that most people who own timeshares made one or more impulse timeshare purchases. Some have regrets and some don't. People like Robert who are proceeding with a well thought out plan, trying to make the most informed decisions they can are in the small minority of owners.
 
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JJVGHNC

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I couldn't agree more completely. Everyone should take however long it takes to find what is best for them, read lots on TUG and other sites, look at numbers, go to owner updates, talk to telesales repeatedly, look at resales, look at other companies, and try to make the best decision for them that is possible.
 

Richelle

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Every timeshare purchase decision is personal based on that person and their family's vacation wants and needs and finances. He knows what he wants and what it will take to get it. Also in his case it's likely to be too many years down the road before he will be able to really take much advantage of the VIP/Privileges benefits. Who knows what those benefits will be in another 10 years.

We see people who build a platinum or PR account for their children and grandchildren or hopefully someday grandchildren. Everyone loves staying at the resorts and truly appreciates having what they have. Then there are times we see the children and grandchildren who apparently have never really used what their parents or grandparents have and have no interest in taking over the account when their parents or grandparents pass. They usually can't be convinced to keep the platinum or PR account no matter what we here on TUG tell them. That just seems beyond sad when there are so many people who would love to have an account like that given to them.

Sometimes we see people making or wanting to make financial commitments they can't handle and still be able to use what they bought. And on the opposite end of the spectrum sometimes we see people who are convinced they will get two weeks and a long weekend of vacation with 200k points and their family of four will be fine in a studio because that's all they want to spend to buy or on maintenance fees. First of all not that many resorts have studios. Secondly two adults and two teens in a studio is almost as bad as spending your vacation in a hotel room to those of us who have become accustomed to having two bedroom/2 bath units for a family of four. Most of us have read the money saving tips in the online articles and know they could likely give up one unnecessary expenditure and it would pay for them to buy and pay the maintenance fees for what they really need. Not every one is good at being realistic when it comes to money. Most of us are somewhere in the middle of those two types.

When you have little kids putting a large amount of money into getting a VIP account might not be the best thing for every family. Kids are only little once and it goes by fast when you look back. If it means money will be tight for a few years and you will have less money to spend taking vacations and building memories then it doesn't seem worth sacrificing those precious years.

I'd guess it's pretty safe to say that most people who own timeshares made one or more impulse timeshare purchases. Some have regrets and some don't. People like Robert who are proceeding with a well thought out plan, trying to make the most informed decisions they can are in the small minority of owners.

Agreed. It being a personal decision, is why I said the only opinion that matters is his when it comes to his own money. We can only present the facts and our opinions, but ultimately the choice is his. What works for him, may not work for you or I. Some might be ok with cramming two teens on a sofa bed in a studio if it means saving on maintenance fee money, or stretching their points. Personally, I can think of better places to be then a studio with two teenagers in it, but that’s just me. :). Kudos to him for taking the time to research and not buy into the sales people’s scams.


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