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Apollo Group looking to buy HGVC [Merged]

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Cyberc

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This is a key reason the EMBARC system (formerly Interwest) resisted integration into the Diamond Collections. HGVC owners may need to protest and do the same or else everyone will compete for the good stuff (primarily HGVC with some Diamond e.g. Maui, The Modern Honolulu) and no one will want the rest. Although Diamond has some nice properties, they also have many properties past their prime which would be a significant downgrade in quality.

If Diamond/Apollo execute a purchase, IMO I am a bit relieved we own bHC because our reservation priority will be protected in NYC at least. If HGVC adds more bHC locations, we may shift from HGV club aka "HGVC Vegas Collection" to bHC reservations in order to obtain the bookings we want with less competition. We also will redirect future resale portfolio additions to the "Marriott/Westin Collection."

Just curious, what’s not to say that if Apollo buys HGVC that they won’t change how bHC works?
 

CalGalTraveler

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Just curious, what’s not to say that if Apollo buys HGVC that they won’t change how bHC works?

It's possible but why would they leave upgrade money on the table?

Of course, they could also charge an upgrade to HGVC as well, which would mitigate concerns about club reservations.

They have several pools to work with:

bHC
HGVC Club
Diamond Hawaii Collection
Diamond US Collection
Embarc
Other Diamond
 

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While all the the things that are mentioned in this post are possible, I believe that the most critical issue with Apollo,(who owns the DRI timeshare system which has a trust system that they vigorously market) purchasing HGVC is what is available during CLUB SEASON. If they merge the 2 systems so that DRI members could exchange with HGVC during club season there will be more members competing to reserve nights during the HGVC Club Season. It is difficult to reserve at certain resorts during HGVC club season now. Adding DRI members to that chase could make it more difficult or impossible to reserve during that period.

This is a key reason the EMBARC system (formerly Interwest) resisted integration into the Diamond Collections. HGVC owners may need to protest and do the same or else everyone will compete for the good stuff (primarily HGVC with some Diamond e.g. Maui, The Modern Honolulu) and no one will want the rest. Although Diamond has some nice properties, they also have many properties past their prime which would be a significant downgrade in quality.

If Diamond/Apollo execute a purchase, IMO I am a bit relieved we own bHC because our reservation priority will be protected in NYC at least. If HGVC adds more bHC locations, we may shift from HGV club aka "HGVC Vegas Collection" to bHC reservations in order to obtain the bookings we want with less competition. We also will redirect future resale portfolio additions to the "Marriott/Westin Collection."

My point is that, in a merger, everything is on the table. The only things not on the table are those things explicitly written into the deeds.

Club season, home week access, bHC preference - all would be up for potential change. Groupings, access to grouping - all up for change. What happens remains to be seen. whether or not you are advantaged or disadvantaged remains to be seen. How affiliates are integrated remain to be seen. Just remember, in any merger, "business as Usual" is the first thing to go. . . .
 

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There is also something else to consider while I am tossing the coin in the air trying to decide whether to add another unit now or wait, and that is the fee MVC charges to activate points in their trust. If Mr greedy pants follows the same model a 7000 point contract would cost an extra $21,000 to activate and virtually kill the resale prices.
 

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There is also something else to consider while I am tossing the coin in the air trying to decide whether to add another unit now or wait, and that is the fee MVC charges to activate points in their trust. If Mr greedy pants follows the same model a 7000 point contract would cost an extra $21,000 to activate and virtually kill the resale prices.

i never understood that approach. One should think that MVC would like to have a healthy resale market as it would mean that direct owners are able to sell their ownership with a smaller loss if they need to.
 

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Can anyone shed some light on the pre and post value of the MVC legacy weeks, and more importantly to me for long term planning purposes; can they be disposed of and is there any value in them after the Trust was imposed?
 

Tamaradarann

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Just curious, what’s not to say that if Apollo buys HGVC that they won’t change how bHC works?

That is true. I am so Honolulu Focused that I am always concerned about how my ability to reserve Honolulu nights during CLUB SEASOn will be effected. However, high valued NYC timeshares are even more of a plum to be picked. While owners in NYC will still have the week they own, the rules on how they need to reserve that week may change. Their home week reservation period preference may only be a month,(13 months before check in). and they may need to reserve their entire week in one reservation to use that preference.
 

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That is true. I am so Honolulu Focused that I am always concerned about how my ability to reserve Honolulu nights during CLUB SEASOn will be effected. However, high valued NYC timeshares are even more of a plum to be picked. While owners in NYC will still have the week they own, the rules on how they need to reserve that week may change. Their home week reservation period preference may only be a month,(13 months before check in). and they may need to reserve their entire week in one reservation to use that preference.

Not saying that you are right or wrong. But if that change was to materialize it would hurt the HGVC sales big time in NYC. No one is staying in nyc for an entire week.

if you would have to book 9-10-11 or 12 months in advance and only be able to get the 1 week you own no one would ever buy there.
 

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Not saying that you are right or wrong. But if that change was to materialize it would hurt the HGVC sales big time in NYC. No one is staying in nyc for an entire week.

if you would have to book 9-10-11 or 12 months in advance and only be able to get the 1 week you own no one would ever buy there.

Agree. I don't ever see that happening. How would removing or neutering the home resort period make them more money?

There are a large number of NYC owners who live on the eastern seaboard that visit NYC for a few days and the value proposition is that they can go into the city to see a show or tour and not have to drive home. Forcing them to use a week kills the entire bHC concept.
 
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WalnutBaron

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There is also something else to consider while I am tossing the coin in the air trying to decide whether to add another unit now or wait, and that is the fee MVC charges to activate points in their trust. If Mr greedy pants follows the same model a 7000 point contract would cost an extra $21,000 to activate and virtually kill the resale prices.
Just curious--why would you or anyone who's aware of the pending ownership change even consider buying another Hilton timeshare until you know how your ownership is affected by the policies of the new owner? I'm a former owner of HGVC and loved the system--but if that system is an endangered species (and it appears it certainly could be)--any further investment in the system represents a huge roll of the dice. What's the hurry?

I own two high demand units in the Hyatt system, which was recently bought by Marriott. Marriott has not impressed Hyatt owners for two reasons: 1) they have attempted to perpetuate the failed Points Program, which has sucked unwitting newbies into owning points with higher MF's for availability of what are primarily shoulder season weeks. Furthermore, the Points have exactly zero resale value because their owners have no deeded property; 2) all of us Hyatt owners are receiving letters from the Owners Association detailing proposed budgets to be voted on in the next 45 days or so at the annual owners meetings. The magnitude of the MF increases range from 8-40%, depending on the property--and since this is the first year that fee increases are being announced since the Marriott takeover, it's more than a coincidence. As we all know, those MF increases raise the base rate for future years, meaning much higher MF's for Hyatt properties in perpetuity and an accompanying depressive effect on resale values.

I share the experience of us Hyatt owners simply to reinforce the discussion on this thread regarding caution. Things may turn out just fine--but since no one knows right now, my advice is to hold off on any new purchases until the dust settles and you know exactly what you're buying into.
 

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Interesting reading following everybody's thoughts on this topic.

I would be interested in upping my ownership to give me access to larger units, however there is no way I am buying anything until there is certainty on the HGVC ownership.
 

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Not saying that you are right or wrong. But if that change was to materialize it would hurt the HGVC sales big time in NYC. No one is staying in nyc for an entire week.

if you would have to book 9-10-11 or 12 months in advance and only be able to get the 1 week you own no one would ever buy there.

My only ascertion was that the bHC home week ownership benefits could be effected; you got the point. Remember in the traditional timeshare systems you only had your specific home week ie. 2 BR, week 27, at a specific resort; you either went to that resort for that week in that size unit or you had to exchange with the exchange company and pay a fee. All of the flexibility that we enjoy in HGVC are club benefits are relatively new and valued by all of us HGVC members. So just as the Club Season exchange benefits could be effected, the bHC home week benefits could be effected.
 

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Agree. I don't ever see that happening. How would removing or neutering the home resort period make them more money?

There are a large number of NYC owners who live on the eastern seaboard that visit NYC for a few days and the value proposition is that they can go into the city to see a show or tour and not have to drive home. Forcing them to use a week kills the entire bHC concept.

I don't know how that neutering the home resort benefits would make them more money, but if it could they would figure out a gimmick. They could set up a trust collection with one or more bHC resort(s) mixed in with other resorts and call it the NYC or CITY collection. They could mix Las Vegas timeshare units in trust collections with either name. Now you might say well a collection with the name NYC collection couldn't have Las Vegas mixed in with it. Well doesn't the DRI Hawaii Collection have resorts in Arizona, California, and Utah mixed in with it. They make the rules whether they make any sense to us or not is insignificant.
 

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FWIW...HGV already has a "NYC Collection" it's called bHC (also includes DC and soon Cabo, Waikiki, Charleston and rumored SF). Home resort still gives up to 60 days (75 days at the other bHC where the "bHC Collection" gets priority reservations over club.

It would be good to look in the NYC deed. There are provisions for AI Reservations to enable short stays. Home Resort may also be included. However, I am reasonably certain it doesn't say that it must be a certain number of months.
 

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I don't know how that neutering the home resort benefits would make them more money, but if it could they would figure out a gimmick. They could set up a trust collection with one or more bHC resort(s) mixed in with other resorts and call it the NYC or CITY collection. They could mix Las Vegas timeshare units in trust collections with either name. Now you might say well a collection with the name NYC collection couldn't have Las Vegas mixed in with it. Well doesn't the DRI Hawaii Collection have resorts in Arizona, California, and Utah mixed in with it. They make the rules whether they make any sense to us or not is insignificant.

You take away the club and put everything you can in a trust. You then give the trust the same (or a better) booking window to the trust than home week. You then offer, for a fee, the ability to to enter the trust where you get a slightly better booking window for your home week. You then, using scare tactics, apply the pressure to put your deed in the trust. Now to be assured of your week, you have to pay for something you already own.
 

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You take away the club and put everything you can in a trust. You then give the trust the same (or a better) booking window to the trust than home week. You then offer, for a fee, the ability to to enter the trust where you get a slightly better booking window for your home week. You then, using scare tactics, apply the pressure to put your deed in the trust. Now to be assured of your week, you have to pay for something you already own.

Bingo! I'm not saying this scenario will play out, but it could. The only wild card in the deck are the affiliate resorts. The deeded owners don't have to play in the new trust, unlike the HGVC resorts, because they are not owned by HGVC, and therefore owners of an affiliate do not have to join HGVC. Nor do the affiliates have to give HGVC (or it's possible trust) a priority over the direct owners.
 
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Tamaradarann

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FWIW...HGV already has a "NYC Collection" it's called bHC (also includes DC and soon Cabo, Waikiki, Charleston and rumored SF). Home resort still gives up to 60 days (75 days at the other bHC where the "bHC Collection" gets priority reservations over club.

It would be good to look in the NYC deed. There are provisions for AI Reservations to enable short stays. Home Resort may also be included. However, I am reasonably certain it doesn't say that it must be a certain number of months.

I know that the HGV has the bHC collection. However, do the DEEDS in the resorts in the bHC specific the priority reservation periods or is that part of the bHC rules which can be changed?

Furthermore, bHC collection could be expanded by a new owner with other properties from other cities that are not as distinguished as the ones in the collection now rather than developing new properties.
 

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I took a quick perusal at the deed which guarantees:

Home week
Gold Hilton Hotel Status or higher (which might have legal complications if Hilton pulls license)
All Inclusive Reservations Option

I did not see Home Resort period but could be buried in the sub docs. Perhaps some of the other bHC owners could dive in to this?

We use our home resort so competition for our unit will not be an issue unless they remove the home resort window. In that case we will change our usage to home week and rent out the days we don't use. What will suck will be preferential access to larger, nicer units during home resort period if they remove that.

I don't envision drastic changes to this coming for a very long time (if ever) so we may be ready to get out by the time something like that happens.

OTOH, if we can use our points to have great access to other bHC resorts, maybe that's not so bad. We live in the SF Bay area so if they add SF, and we are not able to fly to NYC, we could drive to SF for staycations at bHC SF. I highly doubt they would purposefully mix low-end resorts with this so people could arbitrage - why would they leave money on the table?
 
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You take away the club and put everything you can in a trust. You then give the trust the same (or a better) booking window to the trust than home week. You then offer, for a fee, the ability to to enter the trust where you get a slightly better booking window for your home week. You then, using scare tactics, apply the pressure to put your deed in the trust. Now to be assured of your week, you have to pay for something you already own.

So true! The good news is that we are educated buyers at TUG and won't fall for that crap. Frankly, this marks only our 5th year in timesharing and we have seen a lot of negative trends in the industry (not so much for HGV). This only reinforces that there must be resale ROI of 5 years or less in order to justify buying more TS because we cannot assume we will get the same value beyond that unless it is a deeded home unit we will use every year. For HGV, MVC, Vistana and Hyatt Systems, resale deeded units are the best way to avoid points devaluation and trust games.

Otherwise, we should simply avoid the risk and headache and rent for MF or less. If the developers don't internalize that value proposition of MF vs renting, they are living in a house of cards.

HGV has been great. I hope it remains great.
 
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Tamaradarann

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I took a quick perusal at the deed which guarantees:

Home week
Gold Hilton Hotel Status or higher (which might have legal complications if Hilton pulls license)
All Inclusive Reservations Option

I did not see Home Resort period but could be buried in the sub docs. Perhaps some of the other bHC owners could dive in to this?

We use our home resort so competition for our unit will not be an issue unless they remove the home resort window. In that case we will change our usage to home week and rent out the days we don't use. What will suck will be preferential access to larger, nicer units during home resort period if they remove that.

I don't envision drastic changes to this coming for a very long time (if ever) so we may be ready to get out by the time something like that happens.

OTOH, if we can use our points to have great access to other bHC resorts, maybe that's not so bad. We live in the SF Bay area so if they add SF, and we are not able to fly to NYC, we could drive to SF for staycations at bHC SF. I highly doubt they would purposefully mix low-end resorts with this so people could arbitrage - why would they leave money on the table?

I also agree that HGVC has been great and I hope it stays that way. That is why I do NOT want another company to buy it that will change it in the mode of DRI.

With respect to your question "I highly doubt they would purposefully mix low-end resorts with this so people could arbitrage - why would they leave money on the table? Well when I heard that DRI created a Hawaii Collection with resorts from Arizona, California, and Utah I knew enough about geography to know that those places are NOT in Hawaii; I asked myself why call it a Hawaii Collection? Well they mixed resorts from other states in the Hawaii Collection so that they could sell more Hawaii Collection Trust Shares than they have Hawaii units to support. So if they mix resorts from a whole bunch of cities in a Trust and call it the NYC Collection they could sell more NYC Collection Trust Shares than they have NYC units to support!! They are NOT leaving money on the table they are using some unsold NYC timeshare units to make a whole bunch of less valuable real estate timeshare units into a NYC Trust Collection to sell.
 

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I have been reading through the MVC Forum as a parallel universe before acquiring more HGVC points, and to try to determine the downside risk. I asked the question that went something like this "if I have a resale (MVC) week that I have enrolled in the Trust, and then sell that week at some point in the future, will it continue to be enrolled in the Trust?"

Here is a copy and paste from the Marriott Forum:

No. When you enroll a Week, you're simply giving yourself another usage option which is to convert your Week to Points for use in the Destination Club. Enrollment does not equate to a permanent exchange of Weeks for DC Points. Selling an enrolled Week is no different than selling an un-enrolled Week - you're selling the Week and your enrollment does not transfer to the buyer. (And, the new buyer can not re-enroll the Week because external resales are not currently eligible for enrollment.)
 
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Tamaradarann

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I have been reading through the MVC Forum as a parallel universe beforef acquiring more HGVC points now and to try to determine the downside risk. I asked the question that went something like this "if I have a resale (MVC) week that I have enrolled in the Trust, and then sell that week at some point in the future, will it continue to be enrolled in the Trust?"

Here is a copy and paste from the Marriott Forum:

No. When you enroll a Week, you're simply giving yourself another usage option which is to convert your Week to Points for use in the Destination Club. Enrollment does not equate to a permanent exchange of Weeks for DC Points. Selling an enrolled Week is no different than selling an un-enrolled Week - you're selling the Week and your enrollment does not transfer to the buyer. (And, the new buyer can not re-enroll the Week because external resales are not currently eligible for enrollment.)

Wow there are a lot of restrictions in the MVC system. If I understand the club rules, your ownership week can only be used as is or exchanged thru the II exchange system unless it is enrolled in the trust. Enrolling a week in the trust is very expensive but it does allow internal exchanges in the MVC system. External Resales can't be enroll in the trust. When a week that is enrolled in the trust is sold it is no longer enrolled in the trust and the new owner can't enroll the week in the trust because it is a Resale.

As I said above the HGVC system has been great!!
 

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I am a former owner at Marriott, owning both a pre-2010 timeshare and a post-2010 timeshare. Marriott shifted gears from what are traditional thought of as timeshares to a true "Vacation Club", where one is sold points for a "Vacation", not a timeshare. (Yes, the physical plant is still a timeshare, the ownership is not. . . ) The whole purpose of the cut-off of post 2010 ownership was/is to force people to join the "vacation club", by spend a lot of money to 1.) Get in. (around $3,000, last I checked). and 2.) To buy points at around $12-14 a point. (Can't join without a points purchase. usually in a unit of 1,000 or more. $10K +, <and> the join-up fees.) The point is to milk a new owner of a lot of money, to make up for not being able to sell points direct.)

Ah, but one doesn't want to join the "vacation club"! There is a only a 1 to 1 relationship between weeks owners and weeks made available to unenrolled weeks owners. Because of cancellation/rebooking possiblilties, Some people can (and do) find themselves without a week, especially if one only has one week in a resort/category. (It happened to me, which is why I left Marriott.)

But it doesn't stop there! If one want to sell one's "points", Marriott wrote into the "Vacation Club" rules that to be able to transfer, a fee had to be paid on the transfer. It current is $3 a point, which is around 20-25% of the cost of a retail point. So Marriott get paid, over and over again, for every resale of club points. Nothing for weeks, or $5000+ (usually plus, and some time lots of plus) for a timeshare week's equivalent. (No overhead, no sales people, and all the back office overhead covers by other fees. $3 a point pure profit. Guess who gets priority. . . )

And then there's the skim. . . (But I've run on enough.)
 

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This Marriott plan may be coming back to bite them because there are many desirable properties that were enrolled pre-2010 and afterwards that fall out of the trust via resale as weeks owners age out and sell. This ultimately hurts Trust owners as there is a limited ROFR budget so Trust owners lose access to these previously enrolled properties.

There is a rumor on the MVC board that there may be an 2020 "amnesty program" with the integration of Vistana by offering enrollment of weeks at a low price. Time will tell.
 
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Tamaradarann

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I am a former owner at Marriott, owning both a pre-2010 timeshare and a post-2010 timeshare. Marriott shifted gears from what are traditional thought of as timeshares to a true "Vacation Club", where one is sold points for a "Vacation", not a timeshare. (Yes, the physical plant is still a timeshare, the ownership is not. . . ) The whole purpose of the cut-off of post 2010 ownership was/is to force people to join the "vacation club", by spend a lot of money to 1.) Get in. (around $3,000, last I checked). and 2.) To buy points at around $12-14 a point. (Can't join without a points purchase. usually in a unit of 1,000 or more. $10K +, <and> the join-up fees.) The point is to milk a new owner of a lot of money, to make up for not being able to sell points direct.)

Ah, but one doesn't want to join the "vacation club"! There is a only a 1 to 1 relationship between weeks owners and weeks made available to unenrolled weeks owners. Because of cancellation/rebooking possiblilties, Some people can (and do) find themselves without a week, especially if one only has one week in a resort/category. (It happened to me, which is why I left Marriott.)

But it doesn't stop there! If one want to sell one's "points", Marriott wrote into the "Vacation Club" rules that to be able to transfer, a fee had to be paid on the transfer. It current is $3 a point, which is around 20-25% of the cost of a retail point. So Marriott get paid, over and over again, for every resale of club points. Nothing for weeks, or $5000+ (usually plus, and some time lots of plus) for a timeshare week's equivalent. (No overhead, no sales people, and all the back office overhead covers by other fees. $3 a point pure profit. Guess who gets priority. . . )

And then there's the skim. . . (But I've run on enough.)

After reading what you wrote here about the Marriott Timeshare/Vacation Club System you make me want to get out of timeshares for good. The disaster that you detail could happen to HGVC if it is bought by the wrong group. Please tell me something good about the Marriott system as far as how much it costs in maintenance to vacation in Hawaii or Fort Lauderdale for a couple of weeks in a Studio or 1 BR. The following is extent of my knowledge of the Marriott systems and where I am coming from:

We attended Marriott Timeshare presentation about 11 years ago and we were looking at buying one or two 2 BR Lock-offs on Fort Lauderdale Beach which was the only Marriott at the time that was not in the middle of no where so that we could vacation without a car. We stayed there for 4 nights without a car on a promotion. I don't remember the Developer cost since we were going to buy resale. The resale prices were were looking at were in the 10-12K range. The maintenance at the time for the 2 BR lock-off was a little over $1000/week. By splitting the Lock-off we understood that we could vacation for 4 weeks on Fort Lauderdale beach for about $2000 or $500/week. Two weeks would be in a 1 BR and 2 weeks in a Studio. That seemed like a reasonable cost to add to the Miami South Beach HGVC timeshares that we already owned to allow us to vacation most of the winter in South Florida.
 
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