[2009] Why Do We Shame People Out Of Walking Away?

[itisme]

The owners who own the 'dog' weeks feel they should pay less in fees than the 'red' week owners. The owners who own the 'red' weeks feel everyone should pay the same. This is a common TUG argument and both sides have merit.

Agree. This is just an argument. The point I am trying to make is a variable MF based on the demend of the week is a win for all week owners. But it is not going to happen. State laws wont't allow.

How is it a win for all week owners?

When a 'dog' week can be rented less than the MF, no informed buyer is going to buy one and some existing owners walk away. The other owners then carry the cost of these weeks in the increased MF they pay. If the 'dog' weeks are made marginally worthwhile to own using a variable MF structure then atleast some MF$ will come from those units instead of zero. Then the prime week owners don't have to carry the unsold inventory or bad debt expenses. Just a theory.

 

[rickandcindy23]

When a 'dog' week can be rented less than the MF, no informed buyer is going to buy one and some existing owners walk away. The other owners then carry the cost of these weeks in the increased MF they pay. If the 'dog' weeks are made marginally worthwhile to own using a variable MF structure then atleast some MF$ will come from those units instead of zero. Then the prime week owners don't have to carry the unsold inventory or bad debt expenses. Just a theory.

I guess I don't really get your point. All resorts and areas have seasons that aren't "prime," even Orlando.

You mean like these weeks?

Vacation Village at Parkway (#4940)
Be the first to write a review
2949 Arabian Nights Blvd.
Kissimmee, FL 34747

2 BR 8 (8) Full 11-Sep-2010 18-Sep-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 12-Sep-2010 19-Sep-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 17-Sep-2010 24-Sep-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 18-Sep-2010 25-Sep-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 19-Sep-2010 26-Sep-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 24-Sep-2010 01-Oct-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 25-Sep-2010 02-Oct-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 26-Sep-2010 03-Oct-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 01-Oct-2010 08-Oct-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 03-Oct-2010 10-Oct-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 22-Oct-2010 29-Oct-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 23-Oct-2010 30-Oct-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 24-Oct-2010 31-Oct-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 29-Oct-2010 05-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 30-Oct-2010 06-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 31-Oct-2010 07-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 05-Nov-2010 12-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 06-Nov-2010 13-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 07-Nov-2010 14-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 12-Nov-2010 19-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 13-Nov-2010 20-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 14-Nov-2010 21-Nov-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 26-Nov-2010 03-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 27-Nov-2010 04-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 28-Nov-2010 05-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 03-Dec-2010 10-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 04-Dec-2010 11-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 05-Dec-2010 12-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 10-Dec-2010 17-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 11-Dec-2010 18-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 12-Dec-2010 19-Dec-2010 USD 359.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 08-Oct-2010 15-Oct-2010 USD 395.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 09-Oct-2010 16-Oct-2010 USD 395.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 10-Oct-2010 17-Oct-2010 USD 395.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 15-Oct-2010 22-Oct-2010 USD 395.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 16-Oct-2010 23-Oct-2010 USD 395.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 17-Oct-2010 24-Oct-2010 USD 395.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 27-Aug-2010 03-Sep-2010 USD 440.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 29-Aug-2010 05-Sep-2010 USD 440.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 03-Sep-2010 10-Sep-2010 USD 440.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 05-Sep-2010 12-Sep-2010 USD 440.99
2 BR 8 (8) Full 30-Jan-2011 06-Feb-2011 USD 476.99

2 bed units for $360-$477 from RCI. This is why people cannot rent their weeks; RCI is renting them so cheaply.

 

[timeos2]

I guess I don't really get your point. All resorts and areas have seasons that aren't "prime," even Orlando.

You mean like these weeks?
2 bed units for $360-$477 from RCI. This is why people cannot rent their weeks; RCI is renting them so cheaply.

And that has nothing to do with the annual fees needed by the resorts but the fact that RCI pays zero for inventory it then turns around and rents for pure profit - even at 1/2 the annual fee. The flawed week for week system of trading that let this system develop and the owners that blindly feed it are ultimately the ones to blame. When weeks worth less than they claim from the system ("trade up") then what is left is unwanted, unused inventory. RCI makes nothing on that (or II or whoever) so they are happy to rent it to non-owners (or owners who figure things out) for pennies on the dollar - still more than they make on an exchange - and you see the end result.

If trades were really equalized - either through points or a true valuation in weeks as is hopefully starting to occur now at RCI - then what people put in they could get out. If they take more they pay more. Take less they pay less (speaking in terms of trade valuation) - the way it should have been all along. The resorts benefit, the system benefits and the exchange company benefits. The days of dirt cheap rentals will hopefully end. The days of owning meaning something will hopefully return. If not the value of ownership will just continue to fall. Developers start the problem by over building and selling to people that have no business buying. Owners perpetrate it by providing free inventory and demanding better out than they put in. Owning only to trade (up). Exchange companies exploit it with cheap rentals. It's not pretty and it has to stop or we risk seeing the whole timeshare world implode. Yes, it is that badly broken IMO.

 

[rickandcindy23]

John, I agree, but I was trying to show that rental rates are very affected by RCI's cheap deals. It hurts the owners.

V V at P is given high RCI Points, and this creates a glut of units in the system, making it an easy trade for even the lowliest week. I see 657 units with my blue 2 bedroom. Then those same people, who own at that resort, use their points and get opportunities at great stuff, like oceanfront Kauai, even though their trading power would be low otherwise.

When the developer is gone, I expect the number of points they get will be greatly reduced. The "resort" is so huge, tall buildings crowded around a swimming pool in the middle of several buildings, it feels more like a giant hotel to me. It's not worth 92,500 points, or whatever it gets. The salespeople even say that during the presentation. The woman that did our tour four years ago said no one who owns there exchanges back in using points, because it's too high. She showed us Orange Lake for about 60% of the points, same sized unit and season. She sold me on Points, but I came to TUG and bought Aussie points.

Talk about people walking away someday! When they start getting 50K points instead of 92.5K, and they drop from Gold Crown to Silver, this is going to be a nightmare for VVP owners. And the fees will probably go up when the developer is gone. The owners will need to fight to get owner control and their own management company. The writing is on the wall.

Let the developers do their damage, but it is always the owners who clean up the mess!

 

[ace2000]

Talk about people walking away someday! When they start getting 50K points instead of 92.5K, and they drop from Gold Crown to Silver, this is going to be a nightmare for VVP owners. And the fees will probably go up when the developer is gone. The owners will need to fight to get owner control and their own management company. The writing is on the wall.

Has this scenario ever happened anywhere else? Just wondering...

 

[AwayWeGo]

Shux, THAT'S The Place I Was Trying To Think Of.

I came to TUG and bought Aussie points.

Doh !

I came to TUG & bought Arkansas points !

(What a doofus, eh?)

Meanwhile, we still like Vacation Village At Parkway. That's the timeshare where the high-pressure sales tour sold us on the idea of owning our very own Orlando timeshare -- resale, naturally -- after we spied a highway billboard advertising resales on the way back to our dinky motel after taking the tour there in 2002.

The rest is history.

What's really satisfying is that every time we've checked in for a week at Vacation Village At Parkway, it's been via RCI Last Call for next to nothing.

Is this a great country or what ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Mel]

Has this scenario ever happened anywhere else? Just wondering...

Not precisely that scenario, but similar things have happened at many resorts as they developer has ended their involvement. In many cases, it wasn't so much the trade power that diminished as the fees that went up.

It is in the best interest of the developer for the quality to be high, and the fees to be artificially low. Thus they drive the selling prices higher to compensate for the few years that they will be covering more than their share of the fees. When the developer leaves, and the HOA has to prepare a budget without that extra infusion of cash from the developer, they discover that they must either raise the fees or cut services (sounds just like our town budget right now...).

If they choose to raise the fees, they risk losing some owner, which will drive the fees even higher. If they try to keep the fees the same, they have to make budget cuts, and the quality of the resort diminishes, and they risk losing owners who only own to exchange. If you add the insult of lower point values (and thus significant reduction in trade power), more owner will bail.

VVP does look like a great option on paper, but if few owners use their points to exchange back in, it becomes clear that the owners don't think that highly of the resort. Orange Lake, but contrast with their lower point values, sees a significant percentage of internal exchanges.

 

[ace2000]

Not precisely that scenario, but similar things have happened at many resorts as they developer has ended their involvement. In many cases, it wasn't so much the trade power that diminished as the fees that went up.

I realize that a resort can increase fees. However, I've never heard of RCI Points sliced in half or sliced at all. Just wanted to make sure.

 

[timeos2]

Points assignment is not forever - high or low

I realize that a resort can increase fees. However, I've never heard of RCI Points sliced in half or sliced at all. Just wanted to make sure.

It hasn't happened in any big way (yet) but the possibility is there. Especially if the ranking should fall (Wastegate had that occur) which cuts a chunk of value out. But it takes two years before it happens (and two years to earn it back once it's lost) so the owners don't always know whats going on until its far too late. Another reason to be active with the Resort Association & on top of fees. Don't get surprised & try to be helpful in telling the resort BOD where you want your resort to be in the future.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Dinky Is As Dinky Does.

I've never heard of RCI Points sliced in half or sliced at all.

I don't pretend to have any expert knowledge whatsoever, but the way I heard it is that once points-values are assigned, that's it & the assigned values stick.

Meanwhile, what changes is the number of points required for exchanging into other people's newer, fancier, nicer, better located, higher-rated timeshares.

Thus, over time my dinky points timeshare (15,000 points annually) becomes dinker & dinkier based on what I'm apt to get via exchange using those points.

Maybe somebody who knows for sure will enlighten all of us.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ace2000]

It hasn't happened in any big way (yet) but the possibility is there. Especially if the ranking should fall (Wastegate had that occur) which cuts a chunk of value out. But it takes two years before it happens (and two years to earn it back once it's lost) so the owners don't always know whats going on until its far too late. Another reason to be active with the Resort Association & on top of fees. Don't get surprised & try to be helpful in telling the resort BOD where you want your resort to be in the future.

Are you saying that there was a resort that had their RCI points reduced? That's what we're talking about here... I think.

 

[timeos2]

RCI (or whoever) controls the gates - you'd better trust them

Are you saying that there was a resort that had their RCI points reduced? That's what we're talking about here... I think.

Yes. Westgate Vacation Villas, which at some time was affiliated with RCI Points in some quiet, mysterious way (so whats new with Wastegate?) had the points value cut by over 8,000 per week in 2008. Meanwhile my small ownership at Rayburn County has told owners that our point values are scheduled to go UP as we have now maintained a Silver Crown ranking for two full years. I haven't seen any actual change there however. But the right to change values does exist. The theory is if values go up (or down) at one resort they have to do the opposite at others as the total pool of points for affiliated resorts at any given moment has to remain the same. Only how they are assigned can be altered.

Of course it gets REALLY complicated since new resorts are brought in, others drop out so who, exactly, watches that total point assignment and balances the books is very unclear. A case of trusting the fox I suppose.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Gold Crown & Silver Crown & Bronze Crown & No Crown.

Of course it gets REALLY complicated since new resorts are brought in, others drop out so who, exactly, watches that total point assignment and balances the books is very unclear.

When points allocations rise or fall with changing RCI Gold-Silver-Bronze Crown ratings, one can only assume that those potential shifts were detailed at the outset -- i.e., that on Day 1 RCI not only said, "OK, here's your points-values based on unit sizes," but also said at the same time, "And here's a chart that shows what those values will be if your Crown rating changes. Your're welcome."

Full Disclosure: That's just a rash assumption. I have no actual knowledge whatsoever.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[rickandcindy23]

Are you saying that there was a resort that had their RCI points reduced? That's what we're talking about here... I think.

Yes, it has happened before, like at PAHIO Bali Hai Vilas, but it mostly happens when resorts lose their "crowns" and it's understood when you buy that RCI could reduce the number of points. I worry about that.

VV at P is the only resort that really sticks out in my mind as a problem for reduction of points. There is a glut of units with my blue week (674 this morning), and they have the highest # of RCI points for Orlando, but they definitely aren't the best resort in Orlando. They nickel and dime with internet fees, and they even charge for the safe. They stay Gold Crown because they are still "developing."

For example, today I was looking at some weeks in Orlando for January through RCI points, VV at P has only been deposited into RCI Points as 1 bedrooms, because apparently RCI knows no one will pay 74,500 points for a 2 bedroom there, when they can get Hilton or OL River Island for less points.

 

[bnoble]

Has this scenario ever happened anywhere else? Just wondering...

Vistana's RCI Point values went down when they dropped from Gold to Silver. My understanding was that this change contributed to the to-the-studs refurbishment that they are still in the middle of.

Frankly, I'm astounded that VVP is still Gold after my most recent stay. The unit was in "adequate repair", but they made a lot of corner-cutting decisions in the furnishings that I did not expect. Cheap vertical blinds that don't block the light, plastic cabinetware with noticeable molding seams, etc. The carpet in the hallway was threadbare with low-wattage CF lighting with poor throw. The whole place just said "cheap" to me. I got a large 1BR during P-Week for a blue Wyndham studio, so I can't complain. But it is on my "only last minute with no other options" list. It certainly didn't live up to its billing in TUG reviews, etc. I suppose if I hadn't just come from a newly-redone, *gorgeous* unit at Vistana, I wouldn't have been so let down. But, still---in Orlando, you have to work to keep up with the Joneses.

 

[itisme]

For example, today I was looking at some weeks in Orlando for January through RCI points, VV at P has only been deposited into RCI Points as 1 bedrooms, because apparently RCI knows no one will pay 74,500 points for a 2 bedroom there, when they can get Hilton or OL River Island for less points.

I think part of the reason for high point value is because they are lock-off units. They have to assign the points of 2 one bedroom units. All lock-off units have this advantage. In other resorts that have 2BD and 1BD units but the 2BD is not a lock-off, 2BD Point value is allways < 2 X 1BD point value.

Having asid that I agree that point values are still very high for the VV @ P units. I own there but not converted to points. I came close many times to pulling the trigger to pickup a coverted unit (92,500 points) on eBay. Still thinking about it. MF was $550 when I bought there in 2002. Now it is $716 after 8 years. Slowly climbing but will still have $200 to go before MF/point bcomes less than .01/point. However, if RCI can drop the points then it is a different story.


When you turn over your week for RCI points, it is a 3 year term. Can they change the point value given in between the 3 year term?

 

[rickandcindy23]

One look at VV at P and you know they are living in a house of glass, sure to shatter at any point. RCI points are not usually valued so carelessly as VV, even Shearwater owners only get 109,500 points for their 2 bedroom units, and those units are fabulous, oceanfront on Kauai. VV prime season (92.5 K points) is not even close to the value. Shearwater has higher fees, so that is not what I am saying. I can get Shearwater in April-May and other times of year for 82K for a 2 bedroom unit.

RCI props up these developers with high point values. It's not going to last for VV. I could be wrong, but it makes no sense the way it is. Who would stay at VVP if you can get Hilton I-Drive for the same 1 bedroom cost? And no 1-in-4 rules for Points. Some DVC 1 beds are actually only 41K.

As far as VV being lockouts and deposited that way for that reason, that isn't likely true. Not one was a 2 bed, while the weeks side, many are two bedroom. So I think it's because the point value is too high.

 

[e.bram]

Look at the difference of airfares between the mainland(where most of us live) and Hawaii and Orlando, especially for a family of 4 during high season (summer)

 

[Brerrabbit]

It is probably the management company's fault that MFs have risen to such a level that resale prices are zero and many owners are not paying MFs. Owners should focus on firing them and bring in someone else who can manage the resort more effectively.

Has anyone ever heard of timeshare owners actually getting together and firing the management and replacing it with someone who does a better job of keeping maintenance fees down?

 

[DanCali]

Has anyone ever heard of timeshare owners actually getting together and firing the management and replacing it with someone who does a better job of keeping maintenance fees down?

This is hard to do when the developer (e.g. Starwood, Marriott, Hilton, Hyatt, Wyndham etc) has control and manages to screen board candidates.

The acrimonious relationship between the Four Seasons hotel management firm and the owner of Carlsbad’s Aviara Resort has ended in divorce after an arbitration panel decided Tuesday that the two companies should terminate their business agreement.

Just look athe Four Seasons Aviara (the hotel) example... Broadreach fired them because they were not running the resort in a "cost effective manner" and replaced them with Park Hyatt (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/apr/20/aviara-and-four-seasons-cut-ties/). But this is much easier for a professional, profit-oriented real-estate investment firm to do than thousand of owners with differing intrerests and financial means. So Four Seaons will continue to manage the timeshare property nextdoor - and owners can probably expect even higher fees, despite the deflationary environment...

If all owners acted like a corporation, management at many resorts with ever increasing fees would be long gone. But instead, we call the owners who do act like a corporation by walking away from a worthless "investment" deadbeats or we tell them throwing good money after bad is the "right thing" to do... IMO - If a timeshare has a substantial number of weeks with zero resale value, it's time to dissolve it. Keeping owners on the hook for MFs (even if it's just the dog week owners) is a recipe for disaster for all other owners and once that cycle starts it's hard to come out of it. It's Econ 101 - close half the timeshares in Orlando and maybe the remaining ones will actually have some value... (just some wishful thinking).

We may like people to stick to their commitments, but can we really expect many people to pay thousands of dollars to some sleazy company to take the obligation off their hands? Like it or not, people will walk away...

 

[timeos2]

Here's one of a few I'm aware of

Has anyone ever heard of timeshare owners actually getting together and firing the management and replacing it with someone who does a better job of keeping maintenance fees down?

Absolutely. We did it as an owners group at Cypress Pointe Resort in 2001. It wasn't easy, involved a costly lawsuit, but it occurred. There are other examples but it doesn't happen as often as it could/should. Far too many resorts remain under the thumb of developers and that is hardly ever a good situation for owners.

 

[rickandcindy23]

One phase of Polynesian Isles in Orlando just fired Diamond a year ago and hired SPM. It was difficult, and Diamond is still fighting the management company and board to this day. Diamond was apparently angry about losing them. But the BOD has the right to do for the resort whatever is necessary to take care of the resort and owners. I applaud them for doing it.

What is really horrible is when a managment company leaves and chooses its successor. How awful for Quintus resorts when the developer left and hired Celebrity. UGH! Only the worst management company ever. Then Festiva took over at Blue Ridge Village and several other resorts, chosen by the developer without the knowledge of the owners.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Following The Leader.

Absolutely. We did it as an owners group at Cypress Pointe Resort in 2001. It wasn't easy, involved a costly lawsuit, but it occurred.

After that happened, Cypress Pointe Phase Two also got out from under timeshare company management. The independent homeowner association hired a professional, non-developer resort management firm to run Phase Two also (same as Phase One).

I don't know whether lawsuits, etc., were also involved in the liberation of Phase Two.

In any case, it's great that the timeshare company is out & the regular, walking-around owners are in on both sides of the street at Cypress Pointe.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[rickandcindy23]

Okay, well this is totally off topic, but...

Our son and his girlfriend and her sister just stayed at Cypress Pointe last month. I got them a 3 bedroom with RCI Points, last minute, and they loved it, but Josh said they didn't have the flatscreen televisions, nor did they have a comfortable king bed (Josh thought the bed was very hard, and he is no softee).

I wondered what phase he got, because I didn't get the Grandevillas, I got him regular ol' Cypress Pointe. I was surprised there were no flatscreens. What did he get?

Then he took a tour of Diamond's units and said they were so much better, and the salesperson said owners use them and never exchange, so you cannot get into those unless you buy Diamond points. I told Josh not to believe it. Josh thought those were incredibly nice and was so impressed. Why, why did he waste two hours going to a presentation like that? I have no idea!

 

[bathroomuser]

Once you have to choose between paying on your home or paying on your TS, IMHO the choice is clear. Walk away from your TS.

The damage a TS foreclosure can do to your credit is nothing like the damage a home foreclosure can do.

I completely agree! I now find myself out of a job after 30+ years and have had to make some VERY tough financial decisions very quickly.I am NOT someone who just doesn't want to pay anymore as some have suggested,I have had to choose between my family home OR my TS.......no contest!!!