[2009] Why Do We Shame People Out Of Walking Away?

[ace2000]

I completely agree! I now find myself out of a job after 30+ years and have had to make some VERY tough financial decisions very quickly.I am NOT someone who just doesn't want to pay anymore as some have suggested,I have had to choose between my family home OR my TS.......no contest!!!

I appreciate you being honest and sharing your story. There are many people in your position in today's economy and many come to TUG looking for advice. We each choose how to respond.

I really want to wish you the best in the future, and hope you are re-employed soon.

 

[timeos2]

The myth of a Diamond Unit and more

Our son and his girlfriend and her sister just stayed at Cypress Pointe last month. I got them a 3 bedroom with RCI Points, last minute, and they loved it, but Josh said they didn't have the flatscreen televisions, nor did they have a comfortable king bed (Josh thought the bed was very hard, and he is no softee).

I wondered what phase he got, because I didn't get the Grandevillas, I got him regular ol' Cypress Pointe. I was surprised there were no flatscreens. What did he get?

Then he took a tour of Diamond's units and said they were so much better, and the salesperson said owners use them and never exchange, so you cannot get into those unless you buy Diamond points. I told Josh not to believe it. Josh thought those were incredibly nice and was so impressed. Why, why did he waste two hours going to a presentation like that? I have no idea!

You gotta "love" the sales folks!

There are no "Diamond Units". Well, actually, maybe 1 but it is a model - meant to show the standard items they have at resorts they manage & have done the upgrades to - no one ever stays in it. The other 167 units at the resort are as close to exactly the same to each other, not the Diamond model, as they can be. Every owner and guest get assigned any of the 167 units - none are reserved for any group or type of guest. So the "Diamond Unit" simply doesn't exist at Cypress Pointe (and many other Diamond affiliated resorts).

The flat screen tv's are part of the second round of the designated 2010 renovation work. That distinction "second round" is important. The original goal was to do each unit 100% from top to bottom as we managed to do in the last full unit work in 2004/2005. The scope of this renovation - actually changing walls / doors, hard tile flooring, built-ins and much more - along with the uncertainty of the economy and the effect it could have on collections caused us to rethink the time line. It was decided to do the work in two parts. The first covers the brick & mortar stuff like walls, doors, tile floors, built-ins and more. Left for round two are the more cosmetic things like most carpets, drapes, other soft goods, the TV's (except in the small bedroom) and the balance of the scheduled work not completed in round one. So right now 32 units have been through round one of the 2010 work and we'll be doing 32 more every 6 months until they are all completed. Then we'll go back - most likely in groups of 64 - and do round two thus completing the full renovation cycle. Right now that should be done in 2012 but it could be earlier IF things fall into place.

The current TV's may not look modern but they are HDTV's (of 2004 vintage - tube type) that work perfectly well. Paying to replace them now simply to have LCD type makes no sense. There are also new furniture items planned to compliment the new TV's, so just changing them would lead to a mismatched look/feel that we REALLY try to avoid. We went down the piecemeal upgrade road once before & have sworn never again. This way the new tile flooring, doors, cabinets, fixtures and granite throughout gives the unit a whole new look. In a year or two it will get a second round of soft goods including carpet, drapes and some furnishings along with color changes and the other TV's to freshen it again. Almost like 2 renovations in 7 years rather than one.

The King beds. I like them but I like a firm mattress. They were all new in 2004/5. Interestingly we decided to buy the Diamond model (yes, the same one that the Model unit has) as we do the renovation work. It was a good, quality mattress/box spring and the price we got - a discount through Diamond's purchase plan - was competitive. Right now only the 32 renovated units have that mattress and only in the smallest, 2nd bedroom (also has the new LCD TV in that room). The rest of the beds will be done as part of round two. So while there are no "Diamond Units" at CPR there will be the same bedding within 2-3 years.

As you know watching cash flow and available down time for units are critical factors for renovation work at resorts. That combination caused us to stretch out this renovation more than we would have liked in an ideal world. But now it fits nicely with the available maintenance weeks and our regular (vs a dreaded special assessment) cash flow, while ultimately delivering state of the art design and quality. 1/3 of the resort will have round one completed by year end 2010 and all units will be done - hopefully rounds 1 & 2 - by late 2012/ early 2013. Then we will already be planning the 2017 renovations & have a model or two of that work ready for review. It's what keeps us excited and helps keep a nearly two decade old resort competitive with the newest out there. I sure wish we could do it all now but the checkbook and the need to handle owners/guests every week says it takes time to complete.

 

[rickandcindy23]

Josh loved the resort and the furnishings, but I am the one that told him there were flatscreen televisions mounted on the walls. I guess I must have remembered that wrong. I thought I saw photos a few years back that had the flatscreens.

Funny that Diamond would have a model unit that doesn't match anything else in the resort. Sounds like bait and switch to me. But hey, it's the sales department. I just read this to Josh, because he happens to be over here, and he laughed aloud. The sales pitch was so pushy and annoying, he is saying right now.

Oh, I know what you are going through as a board. Special assessments are the worst, too, and when you know you have no alternative, it's not that hard to make the decision. We have units that are in desperate need of repair right now, with an ownership that is sick of SA's and just won't have another. We are probably going to increase fees another $100 to build a reserve slowly, or replace furnishings slowly, don't know which.

We did get the 32 inch flatscreens for the living rooms this year.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Whose Display Unit Is It, Anyway ?

Funny that Diamond would have a model unit that doesn't match anything else in the resort.

Is is a separate Diamond (i.e., DRI) model unit ?

Or is it the regular Cypress Pointe Resort model unit that the DRI timeshare sellers show to people on timeshare tours ?

Or, asking another way, are their 2 model units for display, or just 1 ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[timeos2]

But the swatch looked SO nice!

Is is a separate Diamond (i.e., DRI) model unit ?

Or is it the regular Cypress Pointe Resort model unit that the DRI timeshare sellers show to people on timeshare tours ?

Or, asking another way, are their 2 model units for display, or just 1 ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

There is one unit assigned 52 weeks per year to Diamond (they use the 52 weeks of inventory from their annual ownership/fees) that the Association allowed them to alter with their beds, linens and towels. They never assign it to anyone for use and, when the time comes, it will get the same renovation work as the other 167 units. If they want to keep the new items or retain what they have in there now will be their choice.

The Association has also had model units - 4 so far - that are trial runs for improvements planned. As each design is accepted or altered the model gets redone to match the final version and put back into regular service. We do not hold a unit or units out of service as models once the design is finalized. So at one point in time there have been as many as three separate units designated as models. Right now the only model is the Diamond unit. At some point in the future the next model will be done so we can showcase the plans for 2012 or 2017 or whenever. Full scale models have proven their worth to us as it is impossible to really get the resulting "look and feel" from small samples of fabric and pictures of furnishings. We went that route once (the nightmare, failed renovation of 2000) and ended up with a unit design that Kmart would have rejected. Now we insist on a full model and the actual products/colors to ensure the final product will meet Cypress Pointe Resort quality and design standards.

I don't know how this ever looked good - even in samples, but it did!

Also note the empty glass lamps that once held colorful shells. The Management decided they were "too much" and removed them along with the pillows and most other things that helped make the room unique. The lack of collections led directly to this disaster and helped push us to a new and owner oriented management group.

The 2004 renovation created this (ignore the grocery bag - this was a unit in use!) :

While 2010 - 2012 work will give us this:

Quite a change for the better and not bad for a nearly 20 year old resort IMO.This is what can be done with owner involvement and support for the Board and Management.

And a wider view of the whole, newest version of the living area:

 

[AwayWeGo]

52 X $~850 = $~44,200

There is one unit assigned 52 weeks per year to Diamond (they use the 52 weeks of inventory from their annual ownership/fees) that the Association allowed them to alter with their beds, linens and towels. They never assign it to anyone for use and, when the time comes, it will get the same renovation work as the other 167 units. If they want to keep the new items or retain what they have in there now will be their choice.

Those DRI linens & towels aren't bad -- we used a week's worth of those when we stayed at DRI Grand Beach Resort just down Rt. 535 from Cypress Pointe in January 2010. (Their timeshare soap is pretty good, too.) If DRI gave Cypress Pointe a big discount on those items for use in the Phase One units -- i.e., significantly lower cost than whatever the resort is paying now for whatever it's using now -- that's something the HOA-BOD might want to consider.

Meanwhile (if I am understanding correctly) DRI is paying its annual fees on their unused Diamond Display Unit, to the tune of 52 weeks times the 3BR annual maintenance fee -- totaling in excess of $44 grand just so their timeshare sellers will have 1 "Diamond" model unit they can show prospective customers.

To me, $44 grand is major money. To DRI, maybe not. I mean, all they have to do is sell 2-3 full-freight timeshare weeks & club memberships & -- WHAP ! -- they've covered that particular piece of their overhead costs & then some.

At least the resort housekeeping staff doesn't have to go in & make beds & clean bathrooms & scrub kitchens & take out trash & tidy up, the way they'd need to do if people were actually staying in the DRI model unit. Hardly any wear & tear, no ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Has anyone ever heard of timeshare owners actually getting together and firing the management and replacing it with someone who does a better job of keeping maintenance fees down?

Vacation Internationale fired Sunterra (which has now been taken over by Diamond) and gave the management contract to VRI. There was ensuing litigation, which I believe was all finally settled without going to trial.

 

[rickandcindy23]

John, the decor in that sample is gorgeous! I love the tables and would like to know where you found them. We can sure use tables at Twin Rivers that don't have wood tops. Our tops are so worn out, but I was considering a solid surface on top of the solid oak tables we already have, really as a band-aid fix for now.

 

[timeos2]

John, the decor in that sample is gorgeous! I love the tables and would like to know where you found them. We can sure use tables at Twin Rivers that don't have wood tops. Our tops are so worn out, but I was considering a solid surface on top of the solid oak tables we already have, really as a band-aid fix for now.

Cindy - The furnishings are all custom designed by Tarzen manufacturing out of China. This is a group our designer hooked us up with during the 2004 renovation. The quality and features of the furniture is excellent and we got the chance to properly size it to the units - even to customize a few pieces when the units didn't quite follow the "standard" plan. They have been great to work with. They also did things like provide 2 alternate tops on the model pieces (one wood one granite) for some items so we could determine which would work best.

I have no idea if they deal with customers other than our designers but I will forward the contact email to you and you can follow up if you wish.

 

[timeos2]

A special model just for viewing

Those DRI linens & towels aren't bad -- we used a week's worth of those when we stayed at DRI Grand Beach Resort just down Rt. 535 from Cypress Pointe in January 2010. (Their timeshare soap is pretty good, too.) If DRI gave Cypress Pointe a big discount on those items for use in the Phase One units -- i.e., significantly lower cost than whatever the resort is paying now for whatever it's using now -- that's something the HOA-BOD might want to consider.

Meanwhile (if I am understanding correctly) DRI is paying its annual fees on their unused Diamond Display Unit, to the tune of 52 weeks times the 3BR annual maintenance fee -- totaling in excess of $44 grand just so their timeshare sellers will have 1 "Diamond" model unit they can show prospective customers.

To me, $44 grand is major money. To DRI, maybe not. I mean, all they have to do is sell 2-3 full-freight timeshare weeks & club memberships & -- WHAP ! -- they've covered that particular piece of their overhead costs & then some.

At least the resort housekeeping staff doesn't have to go in & make beds & clean bathrooms & scrub kitchens & take out trash & tidy up, the way they'd need to do if people were actually staying in the DRI model unit. Hardly any wear & tear, no ?

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

Yes, you have it correct. They consider it part of the cost of doing business to have a dedicated model for show.

 

[ChristyK]

Instead of "walking away," how about a quit claim?

I own a number of timeshares, most of which I've bought as resales. However, I do have one that was an impulse purchase that I probably won't visit. I intend to continue paying my dues, but would love to know what others' experiences have been just giving them back to the resort. If someone with some legal knowledge would provide a template for a quit claim deed, I would use it. Oh, my situation is further complicated by the fact that the timeshare is in Mexico. Can anyone help me?

 

[ace2000]

I own a number of timeshares, most of which I've bought as resales. However, I do have one that was an impulse purchase that I probably won't visit. I intend to continue paying my dues, but would love to know what others' experiences have been just giving them back to the resort. If someone with some legal knowledge would provide a template for a quit claim deed, I would use it. Oh, my situation is further complicated by the fact that the timeshare is in Mexico. Can anyone help me?

You'll have to contact the resort and go through their process. Some may take it back, and some will not. No way to tell you for sure.

 

[Kona Lovers]

My thoughts only apply to fully paid timeshares:

If the management companies would be less inclined to punish those who for whatever reason are late with their MF payments, charging large penalty fees and the like, and work with people, such as setting up monthly payment arrangements rather than demanding a huge annual cough up of cash, it might help some folks having problems keep their timeshares and work out of their problems. I think there are probably some out there who may get behind, but instead of being able to work out something, get penalized, it then escalates with more and more penalties, and they just give up.

I'm probably talking about such a small proportion, though, that it's not worth anyone's time.

 

[groovey]

We allow ourselves to focus on we don't want instead of what we do want.

Every single one of us are attracting into our lives what we allow ourselves to dwell upon!

Quantum Physics has scientifically has proven this we are nothing more then an electronic energy field attracting both negative energy as well as positive energy into being.

There are benefits in being a government employee and ex military!! They have a network of all these places RCI, Westgate, Marriot, Hilton ect you have no ownership there for you have no monthly payments no maintenance fees,and there for no commitment but you can still can travel anywhere in the world jut about any wk for about 369 a wk!!!:whoopie:

 

[theo]

A new first....

Quantum Physics has scientifically has proven this we are nothing more then an electronic energy field attracting both negative energy as well as positive energy into being.

Wow! Never thought I'd see "quantum physics" and "timeshares" blended together in the same post.
Excuse me while I sign off now to check my positive and negative energy...

 

[AwayWeGo]

D. I. Y. E-Z Payment Plan.

If the management companies would be less inclined to punish those who for whatever reason are late with their MF payments, charging large penalty fees and the like, and work with people, such as setting up monthly payment arrangements rather than demanding a huge annual cough up of cash, it might help some folks having problems keep their timeshares and work out of their problems. I think there are probably some out there who may get behind, but instead of being able to work out something, get penalized, it then escalates with more and more penalties, and they just give.

We're spozed to know what we're getting into when we sign up for timeshare ownership, full freight or resale mox nix.

Some timeshares are sold with a monthly billing scheme for maintenance fees. Others hit the owners with 1 big bill for the whole year's amount, usually with plenty of lead time to pay before penalties, etc., are added.

Anybody with an internet billpayer service attached to his or her checking account can set up his or her own E-Z payment plan for timeshare maintenance fees by telling the automatic billpayer to send 1/12 of the annual amount to the timeshare's management address every month.

Say the annual amount is $850. Divide that by 12 & it's only $71 per month for 12 months.

Tell internet billpayer to send the timeshare $71 every month, automatically, & the monthly amount is so small you'll hardly notice it -- less than $2.40 every day.

Then toward the end of the year when the timeshare bill comes round, yours will already be mostly paid, with the remaining monthly installments already set to go in before the drop-dead date.

I don't think it's up to timeshare management to soft-pedal the penalties & interest, etc. for people paying late. On the contrary, out of fairness to all the owners who pay on time, the timeshare needs to be pretty much hard-core about collecting everything that's due from all owners, on time, every year -- also to be prompt in going after the late payers & aggressive in taking action against the deadbeats. Otherwise, everybody else's payments have to go up to cover the shortfall created by the late payers & the deadbeats.

It's simple, but not easy.

Important Note: The DIY E-Z payment plan is no good after you've already received the annual bill for yearly maintenance fees. By the time the bill arrives, all you can do is swallow hard & pay up. The time to set up your DIY E-Z payment plan for timeshare maintenance fees is in January, paying ahead on the amount you anticipate being billed for the year ahead.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Mel]

Anybody with an internet billpayer service attached to his or her checking account can set up his or her own E-Z payment plan for timeshare maintenance fees by telling the automatic billpayer to send 1/12 of the annual amount to the timeshare's management address every month.

Say the annual amount is $850. Divide that by 12 & it's only $71 per month for 12 months.

While I agree spreading the payment out in 12 monthly installments is a good idea, sending it in 12 installments might not work vary well - it creates more work for the billing department, and some resorts charge more to pay in installments (even when paid ahead).

It should be just as easy to set up a savings account to hold your annual fees, and use it much like an escrow account. You just have to be willing to leave that money alone, knowing it is for your maintenance fees. It is not a rainy day fund, or an emergency fund (unless it is a true emergency, and you know you will be able to pay back what you "borrow" quickly.

Those of us fortunate enough to not have a home mortgage still have to pay our property taxes in much the same way - as well as those of us who choose not to use escrow. While the amount of the maintenance fee is sometimes a surprise (as are assessments), the bill itself should not come as a surprise, it comes the same time every year.

Another option, for those unable to manage their money well. I have many clients who purposely over withhold on their income taxes to get a big refund each year. Do that, and use it to pay the fees 8 or 9 months early - and get the benefit of being able to deposit early too.

 

[Kona Lovers]

I wasn't talking about newbies to timesharing. I was merely mentioning how some who might have afforded it before have hit some problems and can't get out from under something bought years ago, and now it's become a burden, not due to personal financial mismanagement, but the overall affects of this economy. It's interesting to read others advising simply, "be patient" "sell it" "donate it". When they have one that will neither sell nor be taken as a donation, their choice may be to walk away or pay the PC companies, which again is a TUG no-no. The obvious choice is walk away since if there's no money to pay MFs, there's for sure nothing to pay the PCC.

 

[Brerrabbit]

One tried to do this a few years ago.

I am one of the ones who has one fully paid for but has not paid the maintenance fees for a while. I have mixed emotions about this.

For one thing, when I bought it, I was painted a very rosy picture of how it would increase in value, all this stuff, so I feel like this was misrepresented to me. I will take the responsibility for not thinking through this better and not making that mistake again.

What the resort did one time about 3-4 years ago was send me a letter saying that for $400 they would take the timeshare back and forgive all the past due maintenance fees. I thought, well, that's pretty good - they will just turn around and sell it to somebody else, without giving me any of the money. No thanks.

I don't know what, if anything will happen next. I just wrote them a letter about a week ago asking if they had some kind of resale program. I understand this particular resort is sold out of all their weeks, and, truth be told, it is in a very beautiful area of the country. (Sedona, Arizona) I don't know what they might say to that, or even how much the total of my past due MFs are. I suppose that is the first thing to find out. I saw one at the same place on ebay real cheap.

Well, I guess we will see sooner or later.

 

[theo]

20/20 hindsight, crystal ball into the future...

What the resort did one time about 3-4 years ago was send me a letter saying that for $400 they would take the timeshare back and forgive all the past due maintenance fees. I thought, well, that's pretty good - they will just turn around and sell it to somebody else, without giving me any of the money. No thanks.

This may actually have been a decent offer, made to you in much better economic times (the timeshare market has seriously tanked since 2008), unless your timeshare is one of high market value (a figure which really has nothing at all to do with what you may have paid originally). My guess is that you won't ever see any such "deedback" offer or option from the facility again.

As far as resales at the resort, they are unlikely to want to sell your week for you if you are now several years in arrears in maintenance fees (unless resolution of that debt is incorporated into the sale somehow).

You have wondered in your post what will happen next. Well, it's good news and bad news. The facility will likely proceed with foreclosure at some point, at which time you you will essentially just "forfeit" the ownership entirely. You will be "free" of the ownership at that point (that's the good news) --- but with no money received and the distinct possibility of a "ding" filed on your credit report (that's the bad news).

In any case, I wish you luck.

 

[rickandcindy23]

I think most BOD will hire an attorney or collection agency, and you may have a judgment filed against you in the court. I don't know how long that sticks to your credit, but I am guessing for many years.

 

[Mel]

I am one of the ones who has one fully paid for but has not paid the maintenance fees for a while. I have mixed emotions about this.

For one thing, when I bought it, I was painted a very rosy picture of how it would increase in value, all this stuff, so I feel like this was misrepresented to me. I will take the responsibility for not thinking through this better and not making that mistake again.

Part of the big problem here is that the party that took advantage of you, in not the party that ends up hurt by your decision not to pay. Those who are hurt by your decision are the other owners who now pay higher fees to cover what you're not paying - and most of them bought because of the very same rosy picture. As more owners stop paying their share, the fees get higher and higher, and force even more owners to make the same decision. The bigget problem I see with people simply letting their weeks go into forclosure is that they don't understand the difference between the HOA and the developer - and many mistakenly believe they are sticking it to the developer who wronged them several years ago.

What the resort did one time about 3-4 years ago was send me a letter saying that for $400 they would take the timeshare back and forgive all the past due maintenance fees. I thought, well, that's pretty good - they will just turn around and sell it to somebody else, without giving me any of the money. No thanks.

I think that was a pretty good deal -look at where you are now, you saved the $400, but you now owe several years of back fees, plus whatever penalties are written into your contract. If they sold it to somebody else, to proceeds would be used to pay off your back fees; the offer to forgive past due fees was your payment.

I don't know what, if anything will happen next. I just wrote them a letter about a week ago asking if they had some kind of resale program. I understand this particular resort is sold out of all their weeks, and, truth be told, it is in a very beautiful area of the country. (Sedona, Arizona) I don't know what they might say to that, or even how much the total of my past due MFs are. I suppose that is the first thing to find out. I saw one at the same place on ebay real cheap.

The fact that the resort is sold out suggests that the developer is probably no longer involved, which means they are probably not in a position to sell it for you - The entity you owe the back fees to is the Condo Association which runs and maintains the resort for you. Even if they can sell it for you, their contract would most likely state that the income is paid out in a specific order:

1 - commission (or fee) for selling the unit for you
2 - back fees
3 - if anything is left you get the rest

But if they don't sell it for enough to cover your fees, you will probably still owe what's left of the back fees.

The price you saw for a unit on eBay should give you a sense of what the resort might get for your week, and you can probably multiply the listed maintenance fee by the number of years you didn't pay to get a ballpark figure of what you owe. Probably not a pretty picture.

 

[DanCali]

Part of the big problem here is that the party that took advantage of you, in not the party that ends up hurt by your decision not to pay. Those who are hurt by your decision are the other owners who now pay higher fees to cover what you're not paying - and most of them bought because of the very same rosy picture. As more owners stop paying their share, the fees get higher and higher, and force even more owners to make the same decision. The bigget problem I see with people simply letting their weeks go into forclosure is that they don't understand the difference between the HOA and the developer - and many mistakenly believe they are sticking it to the developer who wronged them several years ago.

Why is it always a matter of someone trying to "stick it" to someone else? This is exactly what the title of the thread is referring to - why the "guilt trip"?

In many cases this is just a financial decision... if something is worth less than what is owed it is "optimal", from a pure financial perspective, to walk away. Is it better to throw good money after bad?

Companies do it all the time... when Fly Clear went under last year, did they want to stick it to their lenders or did they just make a financial decision? If a timeshare is worthless and the cost/utilty of walking away is higher than the (negative) utility of getting rid of it, owners will walk away. It doesn't have to be about emotion... Arguably, the people who keep paying MFs at a worthless resort are acting on emotion.

I am not condoning "walking away" and I am fortunate not to be in that position. But if all owners walked away when it was financially optimal then perhaps developers/ management companies, that wish to continue earning nice management fees, would do more to maintain resale value rather than invent rules and hike MFs in an unrealistic manner, all of which destroy resale value...