• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

Are the Destination Points Charts a Fraud? [Minimum Stay Booking Requirements]

GregT

TUG Member
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
7,128
Reaction score
1,886
Points
599
Location
Carlsbad, CA
Resorts Owned
Marriott: Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas (3BRx5), Ko Olina, Shadow Ridge II, Willow Ridge, Aruba Ocean Club, DC Points HGVC: Flamingo, Sea World, I-Drive, Starwood Bella (x4), SDO, TradeWinds, Worldmark
Can you book 3 days and ask agent to cancel 2 within the 60 days window and allow the cancelled points to go into your holding account?
I have some holding points to play with (still left from the Ritz STT debacle) so I booked the 3 night reservation at Sabal Palms, checking in on July 3. I just tried to cancel the subsequent two nights but the Chat agent wasn't able to do it and told me to call in tomorrow to the VOA.

I will report back with the results.

Best,

Greg
 

VacationForever

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
16,196
Reaction score
10,607
Points
1,048
Location
Somewhere Out There
I have some holding points to play with (still left from the Ritz STT debacle) so I booked the 3 night reservation at Sabal Palms, checking in on July 3. I just tried to cancel the subsequent two nights but the Chat agent wasn't able to do it and told me to call in tomorrow to the VOA.

I will report back with the results.

Best,

Greg
Thank you.
 

GregT

TUG Member
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
7,128
Reaction score
1,886
Points
599
Location
Carlsbad, CA
Resorts Owned
Marriott: Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas (3BRx5), Ko Olina, Shadow Ridge II, Willow Ridge, Aruba Ocean Club, DC Points HGVC: Flamingo, Sea World, I-Drive, Starwood Bella (x4), SDO, TradeWinds, Worldmark
Yes, they were able to shorten the reservation to a single day. It required technical support to do so, but it was not a problem.

Best,

Greg
 

Fasttr

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
6,259
Reaction score
3,401
Points
498
Location
Connecticut
Resorts Owned
Marriott's Grande Ocean (Enrolled)
MVC Trust Points
Yes, they were able to shorten the reservation to a single day. It required technical support to do so, but it was not a problem.

Best,

Greg
Good to know there is a workaround. So in the future....if only wanting 1 or 2 days, and the system tells you its not available, always check 3 days (or more) to see if available, if it is, book it, then call and be placed on hold until VOA can get technical support to cancel the days you don't want. Sounds like a stupid way to run a business if in the end, you allow a 1 day ressie, why not just let the customer book a 1 day ressie online.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,355
Reaction score
18,925
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
Good to know there is a workaround. So in the future....if only wanting 1 or 2 days, and the system tells you its not available, always check 3 days (or more) to see if available, if it is, book it, then call and be placed on hold until VOA can get technical support to cancel the days you don't want. Sounds like a stupid way to run a business if in the end, you allow a 1 day ressie, why not just let the customer book a 1 day ressie online.
Most people probably won't know about the work around, or won't bother to check for a three day or longer reservation and just give up.
 

Fasttr

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
6,259
Reaction score
3,401
Points
498
Location
Connecticut
Resorts Owned
Marriott's Grande Ocean (Enrolled)
MVC Trust Points
Most people probably won't know about the work around, or won't bother to check for a three day or longer reservation and just give up.
You are probably right....which leads me back to my question several posts back.....

So at some point, does MVC pull these from the MVC DC availability and decide to rent these nights out on marriott.com for $$$ (serving themselves and not DC members), or will they just keep the 3 night minimum even if they go to waste and are never booked at all (serving nobody)?
 

StevenTing

TUG Member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
1,552
Reaction score
974
Points
323
Not really sure where Steven got that, because if you go online and look at any individual resorts 2019 chart, its not shown that way. Not sure if his is an Asia-Pacific produced chart (appears that it may be) or what, but its certainly different from the charts via MVC online for 2019.

Sorry I'm late to this. I found this chart from the AP club. Didn't realize it didn't have the break down of the days. I'm working to rebuild the 2019 chart from the individuals PDF's as Marriott says they no longer have the full PDF, which I don't believe.

Edit: The 2019 Point chart has been updated to reflect the detail for daily usage rather than just for the full week.
 
Last edited:

Ralph Sir Edward

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
2,873
Reaction score
3,501
Points
448
Location
Plano, Texas
A most interesting discussion. You're looking at another aspect of the difference between a timeshare organization and a vacation club organization.

The rules of a vacation club allows one day reservations. However, the inventory that the vacation club owns (timeshares) does not (some of the time). Hence, conflict.

The vacation club would point out that they are not restricting 1 day reservations at the vacation club level. The restrictions are occurring and the individual timeshare organization level (which they would claim they do not own.) Now if the vacation club actually owned an entire timeshare entity (like Grand Vista, or DSV, or MOC, ect.), that claim would go away. You would then have a hotel like structure.

Unfortunately, you are dealing with a hybrid situation, with MVCI in an inherent conflict of interest situation. This is merely one of the conflicts.
 

catharsis

TUG Member
Joined
May 23, 2010
Messages
446
Reaction score
84
Points
238
I'll add a fun example

I have a 2 night booking (existing) I see that I can book a 3 night booking but not a 2 night booking. at t-60 I cancel the 2 night booking, the situation does not change, and the 3 nights minimum stay policy which was applied after I booked my 2 nights stay once MVC changed the rules and started allowing properties to do this on a wholesale basis (sometime in the last 6 months I think) still applies, preventing me form making a 2 night booking to replace the 2 night booking I had just cancelled.

So I go ahead and make the 3 night booking, and then cancel the first night. BTW I challenged the agent as to why the minimum night restriction was in place and she said it was because it was a holiday/peak travel season - late July in Hawaii is not any peak I recognise!!

This is just absurd.
 

GregT

TUG Member
TUG Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2007
Messages
7,128
Reaction score
1,886
Points
599
Location
Carlsbad, CA
Resorts Owned
Marriott: Maui Ocean Club Lahaina Villas (3BRx5), Ko Olina, Shadow Ridge II, Willow Ridge, Aruba Ocean Club, DC Points HGVC: Flamingo, Sea World, I-Drive, Starwood Bella (x4), SDO, TradeWinds, Worldmark
I'll add a fun example

I have a 2 night booking (existing) I see that I can book a 3 night booking but not a 2 night booking. at t-60 I cancel the 2 night booking, the situation does not change, and the 3 nights minimum stay policy which was applied after I booked my 2 nights stay once MVC changed the rules and started allowing properties to do this on a wholesale basis (sometime in the last 6 months I think) still applies, preventing me form making a 2 night booking to replace the 2 night booking I had just cancelled.

So I go ahead and make the 3 night booking, and then cancel the first night. BTW I challenged the agent as to why the minimum night restriction was in place and she said it was because it was a holiday/peak travel season - late July in Hawaii is not any peak I recognise!!

This is just absurd.

Sorry, just to be clear, you've found this same phenomenon (can only book three nights) in Hawaii in late July? That's interesting if so.

Please confirm and thank you!

Best,

Greg
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
A most interesting discussion. You're looking at another aspect of the difference between a timeshare organization and a vacation club organization.

The rules of a vacation club allows one day reservations. However, the inventory that the vacation club owns (timeshares) does not (some of the time). Hence, conflict.

The vacation club would point out that they are not restricting 1 day reservations at the vacation club level. The restrictions are occurring and the individual timeshare organization level (which they would claim they do not own.) Now if the vacation club actually owned an entire timeshare entity (like Grand Vista, or DSV, or MOC, ect.), that claim would go away. You would then have a hotel like structure.

Unfortunately, you are dealing with a hybrid situation, with MVCI in an inherent conflict of interest situation. This is merely one of the conflicts.
I'll point out that a "vacation club" such as Marriott or Disney is simply a timeshare with a different label. There are just all types of timeshares.

I'll add a fun example

I have a 2 night booking (existing) I see that I can book a 3 night booking but not a 2 night booking. at t-60 I cancel the 2 night booking, the situation does not change, and the 3 nights minimum stay policy which was applied after I booked my 2 nights stay once MVC changed the rules and started allowing properties to do this on a wholesale basis (sometime in the last 6 months I think) still applies, preventing me form making a 2 night booking to replace the 2 night booking I had just cancelled.

So I go ahead and make the 3 night booking, and then cancel the first night. BTW I challenged the agent as to why the minimum night restriction was in place and she said it was because it was a holiday/peak travel season - late July in Hawaii is not any peak I recognise!!

This is just absurd.
I think HI in late July is peak compared to most of the club, it's just not the very peak for HI.
 

Ralph Sir Edward

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
2,873
Reaction score
3,501
Points
448
Location
Plano, Texas
Dean, I respectfully disagree. With a time share I own a fractional interest in a particular piece of real estate.

With a vacation club (any vacation club) I own access to a pool of vacations. The underlying vacations may be timeshares (or other properties), but I don't own any of the underlying properties. Just access. The club has to right to change what properties it owns, you have no control over that.

Similar results, but different animals. . . (Sort of like comparing a bat to a bird. Both fly, but they are not that closely related.)
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
Dean, I respectfully disagree. With a time share I own a fractional interest in a particular piece of real estate.

With a vacation club (any vacation club) I own access to a pool of vacations. The underlying vacations may be timeshares (or other properties), but I don't own any of the underlying properties. Just access. The club has to right to change what properties it owns, you have no control over that.

Similar results, but different animals. . . (Sort of like comparing a bat to a bird. Both fly, but they are not that closely related.)
My view is that vacation club simply means timeshare, no more and no less. I bet you could ask ten different members here to give you a definition of a vacation club and you'd get 11 answers. It's all hype and marketing with no real basis. For example, Marriott was a vacation club when you didn't have access to other resorts other than through II. And there are, or at least have been in the past "vacation clubs" where you owned nothing and simply had the right to attempt to make a reservation. And there are timeshares labeled as vacation clubs where you don't own a tangible interest, again with Marriott trust points you're not really based in a hard asset. Probably about the only thing we would all likely agree on is that a vacation club has more than one resort until one name whether one had true access of not. One of the biggest mistakes that some make in timeshares is buying the hype of the vacation club while forgetting or not realizing it's a timeshare. I've seen this commonly with DVC for example.
 

bazzap

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
4,423
Reaction score
1,240
Points
399
Location
Cirencester UK
I am having somewhat of a challenge following this whole thread exchange on Vacation Club v Timeshare in the context of MVC.
Apart from the well understood issue of Weeks ownership and what that offers through home resort benefits / limitations v DC Points ownership and what that offers through all resort portfolio benefits / limitations, I am not clear what the debate is?
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,355
Reaction score
18,925
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
I am having somewhat of a challenge following this whole thread exchange on Vacation Club v Timeshare in the context of MVC.
Apart from the well understood issue of Weeks ownership and what that offers through home resort benefits / limitations v DC Points ownership and what that offers through all resort portfolio benefits / limitations, I am not clear what the debate is?
The whole debate is regarding minimum stay booking requirements when booking with points. Executive and above owners have the ability to book 1+ nights at 13 months. However, some properties and dates are requiring at least a three night stay. People are up in arms. It is how the TUG world goes round...

eta: Looks like I missed what you were specifically referring to, timeshare vs vacation club.

All the major timeshare companies like to call their programs "Vacation Clubs" because timeshare for years, and perhaps still does, has a bad name. So by calling them vacation clubs was pure marketing. Nothing else. For practical purposes. What Marriott sells is timeshare. You own a slice of time at a resort or group of resorts. It isn't by true definition, a vacation club. They want to call it a vacation club because it sounds better than timeshare. The more traditional definition of a vacation club is buying in to a program where you have the rights to book reservations but you don't own real estate or a share of real estate. There are vacation clubs out there that you can pay $10,000 to buy in to where you can simply book excess RCI inventory. Marriott weeks and points are deeded interest in real estate, so it is more closely defined as timeshare.
 
Last edited:

Ralph Sir Edward

TUG Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2013
Messages
2,873
Reaction score
3,501
Points
448
Location
Plano, Texas
Bazzap, I'm merely pointing out that MVC DC is a separate "layer" on top of a "layer" in timeshare structure.

Let me give a hypothetical. . .

Say the DC club decided to remove a timeshare location from its portfolio. We'll just call it location X, for convenience.The DC sells all the weeks in its portfolio for X, and then you can't make a reservation for X thereafter. As a points owner, you have no control over the portfolio. If going to X was why you bought the points, "too bad, so sad".

On the other hand, if you had bought a week at X, you own that week, for good or bad, even if the management company changed. You might lose extra frills, like access to the vacation club from the previous manager, (or maybe not), but you still have your week.

These are not identical propositions. It's not that one is better than the other, but they are different. I think that potential owners should understand the difference.

Furthermore, having both propositions at a single timeshare location, under the same management company, causes that company to have a conflict of interest in allocation availability of units.
 

bazzap

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
4,423
Reaction score
1,240
Points
399
Location
Cirencester UK
OK thank you both, I recall now the earlier issues raised in this thread.
(I can understand it better as Weeks v Points, rather than Vacation Club v Timeshare)
Personally, I have never had a problem booking odd day(s) with DC Points and I only own enrolled Weeks anyway.
As for multiple propositions, in Thailand we have Weeks owners, Asia Pacific (AP) Points owners, Weeks owners who have “overlayed” their Weeks in to AP Points, Weeks owners who have enrolled their Weeks in to DC Points, Weeks owners who had “overlayed” their Weeks in to AP Points but have now switched those Weeks to be enrolled in DC Points... so it almost makes the US options seem simple haha!
 

Fasttr

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
6,259
Reaction score
3,401
Points
498
Location
Connecticut
Resorts Owned
Marriott's Grande Ocean (Enrolled)
MVC Trust Points
Actually this thread has taken many turns. Started out with a simple post of somebody unaware that, based on their ownership level, they could not book less than a 7 nights stay until the 10 month mark. Then it morphed into the realization that at some resorts during some time periods, resorts were putting non published (unlike Ritz St. Thomas which is published) minimum stay restrictions (an example would be a 3 night minimum during 4th of July week). Then it morphed into the Timeshare vs Vacation Club debate.

Isn't it amazing what TUGgers can do inside one simple thread ;-)
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,909
Reaction score
3,583
Points
648
Bazzap, I'm merely pointing out that MVC DC is a separate "layer" on top of a "layer" in timeshare structure.

Let me give a hypothetical. . .

Say the DC club decided to remove a timeshare location from its portfolio. We'll just call it location X, for convenience.The DC sells all the weeks in its portfolio for X, and then you can't make a reservation for X thereafter. As a points owner, you have no control over the portfolio. If going to X was why you bought the points, "too bad, so sad".

On the other hand, if you had bought a week at X, you own that week, for good or bad, even if the management company changed. You might lose extra frills, like access to the vacation club from the previous manager, (or maybe not), but you still have your week.

These are not identical propositions. It's not that one is better than the other, but they are different. I think that potential owners should understand the difference.

Furthermore, having both propositions at a single timeshare location, under the same management company, causes that company to have a conflict of interest in allocation availability of units.
Timeshares come in all different flavors, each system is somewhat unique though at the end of the day they usually share some common focus. There are resorts that share 2 to 4 totally different timeshares, there are resorts with wholly owned condo's and timeshares and each points system has differences whether it be in the ownership model or the usage model (or both). Marriott (Trust and DC) don't have a home resort, neither does Bluegreen but you do have the option of taking your owned week with BG. Wyndham, DVC and Hilton have a home resort priority, I can't speak to others. Technically and legally the Marriott product is 2 separate systems with a crossover but share certain management components. IMO 2 of the biggest mistakes people make with timeshares is forgetting that X is a timeshare with it's inherent risks and costs and assuming they're buying into options that they are not like Marriott Trust points for resorts with little trust inventory. It could all go away tomorrow.
 

davidvel

TUG Member
Joined
May 9, 2008
Messages
7,432
Reaction score
4,477
Points
648
Location
No. Cty. San Diego
Resorts Owned
Marriott Shadow Ridge (Villages)
Carlsbad Inn
Several companies, remained unnamed, charge housekeeping fees for daily stays. Would you like MVC to do that to satisfy your daily usage pattern, or would you want to limit overnight stays so as to keep maintenance fee increases as minimal as possible for the rest of us who have a longer stay usage pattern? This is the trade-off.

I just had a lengthy chat with one of the Vacation Owner Advisors regarding this issue, which truly has been illuminating as I had never experienced it, nor seen it in print until I looked at the 2019 point charts. The 13 months 1 day at a time for those owning 7000 points or more (except for RC St. Thomas with a 3 day minimum) had been the mainstay of this program. It now appears that each site can restrict the minimum stays, as they so choose, from year-to-year as the situation dictates, especially in holiday seasons. There is no written documentation, other than the point books which are guidelines, and it is the actual reservation that can determine any restrictions. This is the excerpt of our chat:

VOA: The Ritz-Carlton St Thomas has a set 3 night requirement while the other Vacation Clubs have the right to choose a minimum night requirement for the dates they would like, which is normally the holidays.
ME : How does one know the specifics of each property, if there is no information available?
VOA: We will only know when we go to check for availability if there is a minimum night requirement.
ME: You can see this presents a lack of transparency in booking - I would appreciate it if you could forward this issue to the higher ups as being a chairman's club owner (7K+), 13 months 1 day at a time, has been the watchword benefit in this program - this is no longer the case. Thanks for listening. Have a great day.
VOA: I would be happy to do that, thank you for your feedback. Thank you, you as well!

This has been a very illuminating discussion and a great learning experience.
Illuminating indeed. That's quite an admission against Marriott's sales practices. Marriott doesn't inform its own salespeople about this restriction to the mainstay of the program so this material information can be communicated to buyers as part of their decision making process.

Meanwhile these salespeople are taking tens of thousands of dollars from customers after making the pitch, "you can get incredible flexibility of reserving single days 13 months out, ahead of all the other shmucks that can't afford this great new level of benefits!"

In defense they'll say we told you in the tiny print that no particular reservation is guaranteed and we reserve the right to implement practices and procedures as we wish.
 

dioxide45

TUG Review Crew: Expert
TUG Member
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
47,355
Reaction score
18,925
Points
1,299
Location
NE Florida
Resorts Owned
Marriott Grande Vista
Marriott Harbour Lake
Sheraton Vistana Villages
Club Wyndham CWA
Technically and legally the Marriott product is 2 separate systems with a crossover but share certain management components
For legal purposes, that little fine print you see at the bottom of every ad, Marriott refers to their product as timeshare. It is governed by timeshare laws. Vacation Club is just a marketing term, nothing else really.
 
Top