Bitcoin (again)

[Brett]

I know this is always the plan. I have wondered if this would actually work. If a true collapse comes you cannot eat gold. I have always thought that no one would trade their case of canned goods or a weapon for a shiny coin. I imagine that the level of collapse will have a lot to do with this. If it is perceived as temporary then the store of perceived future value will be good. In a total collapse with no near term recovery gold would be worthless. This is not an experiment I want to try. I am guessing being a walking dead fan gets you thinking of things that you would not normally. At this point the best thing to have is a stash of ready cash as the good old green back will be the best thing to hold for any scenario that we are likely to face.

yes, if a zombie apocalypse occurs then guns and food will be the new "currency"
But if an economic collapse occurs, for example like some South American or some African countries then gold and silver could be useful

 

[bluehende]

That would not be my plan. I would have the capability to brew beer and distill moonshine. That's currency.

You can store corn and wheat in 6 Gal buckets mixed with diatomaceous earth to keep out bugs. It will keep forever. Hopps present a problem, but you can have seed and rotate pellets to keep them fresh.

I do brew beer. I do not keep a lot of grain around though. I guess while others are looting acme I will loot our local homebrew store.

 

[DrQ]

I do brew beer. I do not keep a lot of grain around though. I guess while others are looting acme I will loot our local homebrew store.

Do you brew using adjuncts?

 

[bluehende]

Do you brew using adjuncts?

No. Other than some small additions of wheat in my IPA's

Maybe next time the brewclub puts in an order for bulk grain I should order a pallet. I could be king with a 1000 gallons of beer.

You can use things other than hops to bitter. My neighbor has a nice spruce tree.

 

[Sapper]

I know this is always the plan. I have wondered if this would actually work. If a true collapse comes you cannot eat gold. I have always thought that no one would trade their case of canned goods or a weapon for a shiny coin. I imagine that the level of collapse will have a lot to do with this. If it is perceived as temporary then the store of perceived future value will be good. In a total collapse with no near term recovery gold would be worthless. This is not an experiment I want to try. I am guessing being a walking dead fan gets you thinking of things that you would not normally. At this point the best thing to have is a stash of ready cash as the good old green back will be the best thing to hold for any scenario that we are likely to face.

Historically speaking, gold has held some value while also historically speaking paper money has failed. That being said, I can appreciate the fact that multiple times in history, for brief periods of time, lead has been significantly more valuable than either paper or gold.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I know this is always the plan. I have wondered if this would actually work. If a true collapse comes you cannot eat gold. I have always thought that no one would trade their case of canned goods or a weapon for a shiny coin. I imagine that the level of collapse will have a lot to do with this. If it is perceived as temporary then the store of perceived future value will be good. In a total collapse with no near term recovery gold would be worthless. This is not an experiment I want to try. I am guessing being a walking dead fan gets you thinking of things that you would not normally. At this point the best thing to have is a stash of ready cash as the good old green back will be the best thing to hold for any scenario that we are likely to face.

The question is not about a total collapse. The question is about a major inflation over time. Think the 1970's on steroids. That is where durable commodities have values and uses. Will one of those happen to the US again? Shrug. (That's why you buy insurance...)

 

[bluehende]

The question is not about a total collapse. The question is about a major inflation over time. Think the 1970's on steroids. That is where durable commodities have values and uses. Will one of those happen to the US again? Shrug. (That's why you buy insurance...)

I think this possibility while not likely may not be that far fetched either. A monetary collapse would be the exact scenario that gold will be a great hold. I will have to wrap my brain around what this world would be like with a collapse in the dollar. At first blush it may be worse than the zombie apocalypse.

 

[Sapper]

I think this possibility while not likely may not be that far fetched either. A monetary collapse would be the exact scenario that gold will be a great hold. I will have to wrap my brain around what this world would be like with a collapse in the dollar. At first blush it may be worse than the zombie apocalypse.

In this situation remember silver. If there were an economic collapse, silver coinage would be easier to barter with than gold. I have seen first hand an economic collapse where people wheeled a shopping cart of paper money into a market and come back out with a couple loaves of bread and two liters of milk. Silver and gold held their values vs the hyperinflating government backed paper. However, try getting the market sales guy to break change on a gold coin when you are just getting a few groceries. A few pieces of silver, no prob.

 

[DrQ]

Yes, you can buy pre1965 US coins which are 90% silver for that purpose. Also, there are the Canadian gold .05oz and .10oz coins which are useful to hold larger denominations. The US gold .25oz coins are starting to get a bit too large, but may be useful.

The gold .50oz and 1.0oz coins are more for investment grade. The gold bars are useless.

 

[bluehende]

In this situation remember silver. If there were an economic collapse, silver coinage would be easier to barter with than gold. I have seen first hand an economic collapse where people wheeled a shopping cart of paper money into a market and come back out with a couple loaves of bread and two liters of milk. Silver and gold held their values vs the hyperinflating government backed paper. However, try getting the market sales guy to break change on a gold coin when you are just getting a few groceries. A few pieces of silver, no prob.

Yes, you can buy pre1965 US coins which are 90% silver for that purpose. Also, there are the Canadian gold .05oz and .10oz coins which are useful to hold larger denominations. The US gold .25oz coins are starting to get a bit too large, but may be useful.

The gold .50oz and 1.0oz coins are more for investment grade. The gold bars are useless.

I always get sucked in to these discussions.

In both of these situations would it not be better to have the food and take the silver and gold from other people. Maybe the preppers (did anybody but me watch that old show) have it right. I know you can buy those freeze dried packs in bulk as a 1 yr supply. Maybe they have it right. It is just like insurance. If you use it you were a genius. If you do not you wasted your money. Does anybody know the shelf life on those. We actually have a lot of can goods that we rotate through. I am guessing we could feed ourselves for some time with the food in our basement.

I guess my beer cellar (yes there is such a thing) is the best insurance against the collapse. High demand and easily marketed.

All I need is my freeze dried supply and a ton of grain and I am all set. Bring on the zombies.

 

[WVBaker]

I think this possibility while not likely may not be that far fetched either. A monetary collapse would be the exact scenario that gold will be a great hold. I will have to wrap my brain around what this world would be like with a collapse in the dollar. At first blush it may be worse than the zombie apocalypse.

Cue music...
It is a dimension as vast as space, and as timeless as infinity. It is the middle ground between light and shadow, between science and superstition, and it lies between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge. This is the dimension of imagination. It is an area which we call The Twilight Zone."

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

I always get sucked in to these discussions.

In both of these situations would it not be better to have the food and take the silver and gold from other people. Maybe the preppers (did anybody but me watch that old show) have it right. I know you can buy those freeze dried packs in bulk as a 1 yr supply. Maybe they have it right. It is just like insurance. If you use it you were a genius. If you do not you wasted your money. Does anybody know the shelf life on those. We actually have a lot of can goods that we rotate through. I am guessing we could feed ourselves for some time with the food in our basement.

I guess my beer cellar (yes there is such a thing) is the best insurance against the collapse. High demand and easily marketed.

All I need is my freeze dried supply and a ton of grain and I am all set. Bring on the zombies.

Actually I can answer the question on freeze-dried foods. Not because I am a prepper, but I like to garden, and I thought about freeze drying some of the excess. Lowfat to fat-free foods will last 15-25 years, fatty foods 8-10 years. I gave up the idea because the equipment is expensive and it uses a lot of electricity. Easier and cheaper to make preserves. . .

 

[bogey21]

At this point the best thing to have is a stash of ready cash as the good old green back will be the best thing to hold for any scenario that we are likely to face.

But if there were to be a catastrophic monetary collapse in the dollar ala Germany in the 20s or Venezuela today your stash of greenbacks wouldn't go very far. In such events gold and silver coins are a better safety net...

George

 

[DrQ]

In both of these situations would it not be better to have the food and take the silver and gold from other people. Maybe the preppers (did anybody but me watch that old show) have it right. I know you can buy those freeze dried packs in bulk as a 1 yr supply. Maybe they have it right. It is just like insurance. If you use it you were a genius. If you do not you wasted your money. Does anybody know the shelf life on those. We actually have a lot of can goods that we rotate through. I am guessing we could feed ourselves for some time with the food in our basement.

I guess my beer cellar (yes there is such a thing) is the best insurance against the collapse. High demand and easily marketed.

All I need is my freeze dried supply and a ton of grain and I am all set. Bring on the zombies.

If you're prepping, I don't disagree that food is something which should be considered.

You can buy grain packaged in 6 GAL buckets sealed in mylar bags with food safe oxygen absorbing packets. You buy a hand operated mill and now you have food or material for brewing. Additionally, some grains are able to germinate for crops. For those types of grains which are not able to germinate (oat groats, rice, barley ...) you can buy a pound of seeds of each and again package them in mylar with oxygen absorbers. You don't want to freeze dry grain.

Somewhere I read, grain stored in this manner will be reduced in sprouting success by 50% after some period of time, so you will have to rotate stock.

The idea is that you would decide on protection on many fronts. Water is probably the most immediate concern in a total breakdown. The brewing process will help providing potable liquids.

We won't talk about protection for obvious reasons.

Since the original topic was bitcoin, we have been focusing on the economic aspects.

 

[am1]

Im a fan of land. In good times in bad. Sadly in bad times its not worth planting anything.

 

[Sapper]

In both of these situations would it not be better to have the food and take the silver and gold from other people.

Here's the thing. We are not really discussing a full blown socitial apocalypse. Historically speaking, those events are rare. The much more common event, and pardon the pun, the type of event where gold and silver shine, is a rapid economic shift. We are talking about 1922 Germany, 1930 US, 1986 Japan, the world was close to it in 2008, Venezuela today (lots of others, I'm just cherry picking). In these events government issued paper money becomes toilet paper. There are still laws about theft and other things. In the situation we are discussing, your suggestion of theft still lands you in jail.

Now, if we are talking about a full melt down of the world as we know it... Collapse of Rome kind of thing... Well, at that point all bets are off.

 

[bluehende]

Here's the thing. We are not really discussing a full blown socitial apocalypse. Historically speaking, those events are rare. The much more common event, and pardon the pun, the type of event where gold and silver shine, is a rapid economic shift. We are talking about 1922 Germany, 1930 US, 1986 Japan, the world was close to it in 2008, Venezuela today (lots of others, I'm just cherry picking). In these events government issued paper money becomes toilet paper. There are still laws about theft and other things. In the situation we are discussing, your suggestion of theft still lands you in jail.

Now, if we are talking about a full melt down of the world as we know it... Collapse of Rome kind of thing... Well, at that point all bets are off.

The word take was in reference to barter not theft. Not very clear I know. I would say other than Japan in 1986 again a stockpile of food would have been a pretty good store of value. Not as good as gold, but certainly up there. I would also think that a stock of US dollars would have been good also. Not sure about the earlier two, but you could say keeping the current global currency could apply if it was not the dollar. My thoughts ran wild with the original post of using goldfor armageddon. I think everyone here is discussing this with the thought that this is fiction.

 

[Sapper]

The word take was in reference to barter not theft. Not very clear I know. I would say other than Japan in 1986 again a stockpile of food would have been a pretty good store of value. Not as good as gold, but certainly up there. I would also think that a stock of US dollars would have been good also. Not sure about the earlier two, but you could say keeping the current global currency could apply if it was not the dollar. My thoughts ran wild with the original post of using goldfor armageddon. I think everyone here is discussing this with the thought that this is fiction.

Sorry, I read "take" in a different way than you had intended.

I think the zombie appocolypse thing is fun fiction; however, I see holding some shiny metal for economic downturns as real.

Having a long term quantity of food is tough because you have to rotate stock to keep it fresh. Shiny metal has no shelf life. No waste, spoilage, or eating really bad food on a regular basis to not have loss by expiration.

I was really trying to keep the discussion on economics, not of prepping for a total societal breakdown. I suppose you could make the argument that by holding a large quantity of food you are removing yourself from the economic activity.

 

[bluehende]

Sorry, I read "take" in a different way than you had intended.

I think the zombie appocolypse thing is fun fiction; however, I see holding some shiny metal for economic downturns as real.

Having a long term quantity of food is tough because you have to rotate stock to keep it fresh. Shiny metal has no shelf life. No waste, spoilage, or eating really bad food on a regular basis to not have loss by expiration.

I was really trying to keep the discussion on economics, not of prepping for a total societal breakdown. I suppose you could make the argument that by holding a large quantity of food you are removing yourself from the economic activity.

To keep it in economic terms and go back to bitcoin. Here is the good and bad of things discussed.


Bitcoin. I am not sure what value this has for any situation other than an absolute speculation. It only has value as people believe it has value. This is true of everything other than hard goods except that bitcoin has no backing to help with confidence. A mild economic disturbance such as a recession or a large paper money decline might push this much higher. I would worry about government intervention if it becomes an actual store of wealth.

Gold Is a great store of value with a moderate collapse. Think economic and not governmental. It may not be bad to hold as an investment and would surely rise in a large economic crisis. The disadvantage is storing it safely and even though it has value bartering with gold would not be easy. Keeping large quantities of gold is usually held in trust and I would not be sure of the safety of your holdings with a big economic collapse.

cash. Probably the best and easiest store for value as long as the government holds firm. The downside is holding a fairly large supply of cash does cost in the time value of that money. I would hold nothing but US cash. If the government is falling or we have huge runaway inflation we have a lot of serious problem that nothing we hold will help.

Food. The toughest store of value to maintain and hold. It is the best if we get to a barter economy a very unlikely event for more than a short time. It would be easily bartered. Buying the prepper pack is not real cheap but does give you catastrophic insurance for quite some time. I have eaten enough backpacker meals to know that it is actually not bad, but not what I would plan for dinner.

what I hold

Bitcoin....No way do I speculate on ones and zeroes. I value my capital too much for that much risk

gold. I hold none as an investment and would have some as jewelry. My main investment strategy has been a broad based stock portfolio thinking that this is the most likely way to real wealth.

cash. With today's economy I have very little cash on hand. A few tanks of gas and a bit of food at most. I actually think keeping some around is a good idea and with this thread may get a small stash. After all it is making all of 0.1% in my savings account. Pretty cheap insurance against a short crisis.

Food. We have a large supply of food in the basement via canned goods. It has not accumulated for crisis reasons but due to good sales and we use it. Can goods last 5 yrs and I cannot pass up a bargain. The good part is my family could live for months on the canned goods and if we have electricty I could go much longer due to a full freezer.

Cash

 

[grab]

Bitcoin cash up 40% today!

 

[DrQ]

Bitcoin cash up 40% today!

As volatile as it is, how easy is it to sell your Bitcoin? I'll admit my ignorance, if you decide to convert digital currency into a fiat currency, how do you agree on the value of such a fluctuating thing. Do you trust your exchange?

I bought my gold in the 1990's from Hannes Tulving. At the time he was one of the leaders of the industry. I was lucky. By 2014, the volatility in the gold market brought him down in ruins. I can see the same thing happening with crypto currency.

 

[grab]

You can sell the major bitcoins pretty easy - but good luck timing the market.

 

[DrQ]

You can sell the major bitcoins pretty easy - but good luck timing the market.

My definition of "easy" is to be able to go to a local pawn shop or exchange and walk out with cash for about a $40/oz difference between any of them.

 

[MULTIZ321]

Remember Bitcoin? Some Investors Might Want to Forget
By Nellie Bowles/ Technology/ The New York Times/ nytimes.com

"PALO ALTO, Calif. — Last year around this time, a toy called a cryptokitty sold for $170,000. A real estate agent remade himself as CoinDaddy, producing cryptocurrency-themed music videos. The man behind a company called Ripple became for a moment richer than Mark Zuckerberg. Kids barely out of high school were buying Lamborghinis because of a crypto meme. Experts went on CNBC to say Bitcoin was going to reach $100,000 per coin.

For a few sweet months of 2018, all of Silicon Valley was wrapped up in frenzied easy money and a fantasy of remaking the world order with cryptocurrencies and a related technology called the blockchain. A flood of joy hit the Bay Area. The New York Times ran with the trend in an article with the headline “Everyone Is Getting Hilariously Rich and You’re Not.” It was temporarily true.

And just as the American public had been given every possible blockchain explainer that could be written, the whole thing collapsed. The bubble popped.

Today the price of Bitcoin — $19,783 last December — is $3,810. Litecoin was $366 a coin; it’s now $30. Ethereum was $1,400 in January; today it’s $130....."

For a few sweet months of 2018, all of Silicon Valley was wrapped up in cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and a related technology called the blockchain. Not anymore.CreditCreditInts Kalnins/Reuters



Richard

 

["Roger"]

I'm still holding on to my tulip bulbs that have been passed down through the family. They should make a comeback any day now ...

Tulipmania