Buying resale Marriott points - what do you lose?

[terces]

We are investigating a Marriott resale TS purchase - and even willingly went to a presentation at Myrtle beach so as to be well informed. (We are TS owners at a Mexican resort and thus have an RCI account plus we have a reasonably good TUG based knowledge background).

They “offered” to empty our wallets, and would even give us some Marriott Rewards that could allegedly be used for extensive flight/accommodation holidays.

In regards to resale, we are aware that Marriott will trigger ROFR on most offers under about 23% of the current price, so they are artificially keeping a floor under the price, plus charging $2 per point plus a few other fees. So the end result would be a total acquisition cost of around $6 to $7 per point for resale as opposed to almost $14 for current retail. The current MF’s are $0.53 per point.

So my questions are many, but first of all:

1. What do we loose by buying resale?
2. What are the restrictions if we are a resale owner?
3. Are the Marriott Rewards they offer as a bonus for buying, of value?
4. They say that, now with the recent acquisition of Starwood, conversion points are 1:40 and good value. Is there really any value in converting TS points to Rewards points?
5. Does anyone have a copy of Marriotts contract and rules they could share?
6. Would it be a good strategy to buy an initial and small starter contract directly from Marriott and then add on with resale?
7. If we did number 6 would we still be able to achieve the top reward levels with a combination of direct purchase and resale?
...... a little info can be dangerous!

Thank you so much for any advice
Ron & Linda

 

[VacationForever]

Let me try to address your questions:
1. If you buy resale points, after paying for junk fees, which is a little over $2 per point, resale points will have full benefits as points bought directly from MVC. I understand from TUG that Marriott does have a disclaimer that resale points may not have the same priviledges as buying directly (even after paying for junk fees) but until Marriott invokes that right, resale points + junk fees = Marriott DC direct purchase.
2. See 1. No restrictions as of now, i.e. after you pay for the junk fees.
3. Marriott Rewards ARE always VERY valuable for us. We use them to book travel packages for business class flight tickets and hotel stays at least once per year. We even convert our Marriott TS regularly into MRP when we do not plan to use the weeks that year. But everyone's use is different. We do alot of non TS vacations.
4. 1:40 is decent value, although not the best because DC MF is high - next year it is going to .55+ cents a point. But everyone's use is different. If you don't travel like us it may not be as valuable.
5. I believe Marriott owners all do, but mine is in a huge binder and not on softcopy so I cannot really share without spending hours trying to scan them. They also gave us a disk which I have yet to look at it. You can find much of the info that is posted by SueDonJ under the Marriott sticky.
6. I think the best way to do it is to buy a small package from resale as opposed to from Marriott, then if you want to add more, consider buying a combo (aka as hybrid in TUG terms) package which makes up of a Marriott brokered resale week and matching points OR buying more resale points. The cost is very close between the 2 options.
7. Yes. After you pay junk fees for resale points, or buying from Marriott (combo), they all count towards their "reward" levels.

 

[terces]

Thanks for all the great details. Have you been able to use the cruise exchange? Is it worthwhile?

 

[VacationForever]

Thanks for all the great details. Have you been able to use the cruise exchange? Is it worthwhile?

Cruise exchanges have a 50% markup across the board. It is really a ripoff, and I don't normally use that word lightly. For Collette tours, the markup is closer to 10 to 20%. We will likely use points to book Collette tours if the dates line up with our cruises, but not for cruise exchanges. We have been averaging 2 cruises a year.

 

[kds4]

We are investigating a Marriott resale TS purchase - and even willingly went to a presentation at Myrtle beach so as to be well informed. (We are TS owners at a Mexican resort and thus have an RCI account plus we have a reasonably good TUG based knowledge background).

They “offered” to empty our wallets, and would even give us some Marriott Rewards that could allegedly be used for extensive flight/accommodation holidays.

In regards to resale, we are aware that Marriott will trigger ROFR on most offers under about 23% of the current price, so they are artificially keeping a floor under the price, plus charging $2 per point plus a few other fees. So the end result would be a total acquisition cost of around $6 to $7 per point for resale as opposed to almost $14 for current retail. The current MF’s are $0.53 per point.

So my questions are many, but first of all:

1. What do we loose by buying resale?
2. What are the restrictions if we are a resale owner?
3. Are the Marriott Rewards they offer as a bonus for buying, of value?
4. They say that, now with the recent acquisition of Starwood, conversion points are 1:40 and good value. Is there really any value in converting TS points to Rewards points?
5. Does anyone have a copy of Marriotts contract and rules they could share?
6. Would it be a good strategy to buy an initial and small starter contract directly from Marriott and then add on with resale?
7. If we did number 6 would we still be able to achieve the top reward levels with a combination of direct purchase and resale?
...... a little info can be dangerous!

Thank you so much for any advice
Ron & Linda

I am assuming from your original post above that you have already determined that a purchase of points is better suited to your travel patterns than buying a resale Marriott week would be? If so, I would recommend resale and your ROFR estimate of $6-$7 per point all in is where I would put it. Having decided on points, my next question would be are you the type of owner who wants to have guaranteed control over all of the points you use for travel, or are you willing to go through the exercise of renting points from other owners? If you want to own it all, you will need to buy to meet your travel patterns. If you are willing to go through the process of renting points each year, then I would get the minimum ownership required (1,500 points), and then rent beyond that as your dates and destinations require. Good luck.

 

[kds4]

Cruise exchanges have a 50% markup across the board. It is really a ripoff, and I don't normally use that word lightly. For Collette tours, the markup is closer to 10 to 20%. We will likely use points to book Collette tours if the dates line up with our cruises, but not for cruise exchanges. We have been averaging 2 cruises a year.

The only cruise redemption I would consider (with the lowest mark-up), would likely be the occasional Owner Cruises that Marriott offers. There is usually at least one per year. I think one of the next ones is an 8 night Southern Carribbean itinerary in April of 2018 with Celebrity. The key to remember for any cruise redemption is that the points only cover the cost of the cabin itself. All taxes, port charges, 3rd and 4th person charges, booking/travel agent and/or other fees are additional 'out of pocket' costs.

 

[VacationForever]

The only cruise redemption I would consider (with the lowest mark-up), would likely be the occasional Owner Cruises that Marriott offers. There is usually at least one per year. I think one of the next ones is an 8 night Southern Carribbean itinerary in April of 2018 with Celebrity. The key to remember for any cruise redemption is that the points only cover the cost of the cabin itself. All taxes, port charges, 3rd and 4th person charges, booking/travel agent and/or other fees are additional 'out of pocket' costs.

They have 3 owners cruises at present, as I would recall. I believe the points listed do cover taxes and port charges. I checked about a half a dozen cruises (which I am actually booked on) and they all had around 50% markup. What I did not include is all the freebies thrown in by my travel agent (Onboard credits, free gratuities, cash cards...) and by the cruise lines themselves. I think I am pretty liberal when I said the markup is 50%.

 

[terces]

I am assuming from your original post above that you have already determined that a purchase of points is better suited to your travel patterns than buying a resale Marriott week would be? If so, I would recommend resale and your ROFR estimate of $6-$7 per point all in is where I would put it. Having decided on points, my next question would be are you the type of owner who wants to have guaranteed control over all of the points you use for travel, or are you willing to go through the exercise of renting points from other owners? If you want to own it all, you will need to buy to meet your travel patterns. If you are willing to go through the process of renting points each year, then I would get the minimum ownership required (1,500 points), and then rent beyond that as your dates and destinations require. Good luck.

I am assuming from your original post above that you have already determined that a purchase of points is better suited to your travel patterns than buying a resale Marriott week would be? If so, I would recommend resale and your ROFR estimate of $6-$7 per point all in is where I would put it. Having decided on points, my next question would be are you the type of owner who wants to have guaranteed control over all of the points you use for travel, or are you willing to go through the exercise of renting points from other owners? If you want to own it all, you will need to buy to meet your travel patterns. If you are willing to go through the process of renting points each year, then I would get the minimum ownership required (1,500 points), and then rent beyond that as your dates and destinations require. Good luck

That’s a great idea. We are currently doing just that with RCI while we figure out if the Gold Crown resorts are what we want or if we would like to kick it up a notch to Marriott.

 

[kds4]

They have 3 owners cruises at present, as I would recall. I believe the points listed do cover taxes and port charges. I checked about a half a dozen cruises (which I am actually booked on) and they all had around 50% markup. What I did not include is all the freebies thrown in by my travel agent (Onboard credits, free gratuities, cash cards...) and by the cruise lines themselves. I think I am pretty liberal when I said the markup is 50%.

For the owner cruises, you may be correct on including taxes and port charges (which is one of the reasons I would consider them before a non-owner cruise redemption through MVCI's provider). I went through the experience of booking a Southern Caribbean cruise for this past summer. I was not using my points, but using the cruise certificate that came from an Encore package we purchased in 2014.

We were able to determine that the 'value' of the cruise certificate for our family of 4 was about $500 on this particular itinerary, based on what we were charged through MVCI's redemption center and the best price we could find elsewhere (which was with the cruise line directly). Alas, it was not to be and we ended up having to cancel. It was a difficult recovery process between what we actually got back in 'cash', what we got as a future cruise 'credit' with the cruise line, what we actually lost with the cruise line as a penalty for cancelling based on the fare type that Marriott's provider booked us into, and what we dealt with to ultimately get all of the 'travel agency commission fee' back except about $25.00. I will be very wary of doing any future cruise experiences this way. Compared to dealing with the cruise line directly as we normally do, this was quite painful.

While I realize we were using a cruise certificate and not redeeming DC points, I suspect the mechanics of the process to book a cruise through Marriott's contractor (OVS) is likely the same regardless.

 

[kds4]

I'm glad you are weighing your options carefully before jumping into whatever course you decide to take. I will say that if you are 'travelers of habit' and tend to go to the same place/places each year, it is possible to purchase a Marriott resale week for $1,000 or less in many desirable locations depending on when you tend to travel and where you like to go. There is also the prospect of just becoming a serial renter. While you own nothing, you are also responsible for nothing. The only downside is having the least amount of control to guarantee your ability to get what you want, when you want, where you want. With points, you are 'generally' a step above renting in that regard. The most secure option is owning a week somewhere. However, it is also the most 'restricted' as your 'guarantee' is for just that one location and even that is not absolute that you can get the exact dates you will want.

It's quite a balancing act - guarantee versus flexibility. Our 'equilibrium' as owners came from deciding to take both approaches (points and weeks). However, I don't recommend that as an initial step to someone considering Marriott ownership. We did it incrementally over about 7 years as we grew into our timeshare owner shoes and learned what worked (and didn't) for us.

 

[terces]

Great advice. With our RCI experience we have a meager account that costs us $199 in annual fees - from one of the Mexican TS's that make their money off of the All-Inclusive fees - and we have been "gifted" a large block of points we are using to test the waters with exchanges. So far the RCI Gold Crown rating is a bit of a joke as the owners of TS's in these properties seem to be allowed to submit some rose-colored-glass type of ratings, and they even get away with this on Tripadvisor, so we are very interested in trying out the higher end resorts. Having been in an RV for the past number of years and incurring annual costs in the $10,000 to $20,000 range including the depreciation, we don't want to get into nickle and diming when looking for a better quality resort. One suggestion here is to start out by buying a small account on resale and then rent points. I really like this option, and it seems that Marriott will not treat us as second class citizens. Does anyone have first hand experience with this option?

Also, are the Marriott resorts consistently of higher quality, or do you have to be constantly on guard of getting into run-down resorts?

 

[VacationForever]

Great advice. With our RCI experience we have a meager account that costs us $199 in annual fees - from one of the Mexican TS's that make their money off of the All-Inclusive fees - and we have been "gifted" a large block of points we are using to test the waters with exchanges. So far the RCI Gold Crown rating is a bit of a joke as the owners of TS's in these properties seem to be allowed to submit some rose-colored-glass type of ratings, and they even get away with this on Tripadvisor, so we are very interested in trying out the higher end resorts. Having been in an RV for the past number of years and incurring annual costs in the $10,000 to $20,000 range including the depreciation, we don't want to get into nickle and diming when looking for a better quality resort. One suggestion here is to start out by buying a small account on resale and then rent points. I really like this option, and it seems that Marriott will not treat us as second class citizens. Does anyone have first hand experience with this option?

Also, are the Marriott resorts consistently of higher quality, or do you have to be constantly on guard of getting into run-down resorts?

I think the first thing you may want to do is go and stay at some Marriott timeshare to make sure you like the experience. I have never come across any Marriott resorts that are run-down. Their quality is consistent as Marriott has a brand and experience to upkeep, otherwise people will stop buying from them as well as paying MF for the resorts. MVC is probably the most innovative player in the timeshare industry. They are constant adding new resorts (the Pulse collection in cities) and inventing ways to expand the experience beyond timeshare resort stays. The issue that I have is that anything outside of timeshare resort stays have huge amount of skim baked in, whether it is cruise booking, land tour bookings, resort vouchers, golf academy etc. So while it is a "vacation club", anything other than for staying at a timeshare resort or possibly conversion to Marriott reward points is not good use of the DC points. The above poster mentioned owning a resale week to test water or owning a small amount (1.5K) of DC points and then renting points as needed are really good options. Resale week, besides occupying for yourself or renting it out, it can only be used for trading in II and you will have to pay for the accounts and trades etc.

The nice thing about paying the club fees is that that fees cover pretty much everything except for II exchanges into non-Marriott properties as well size upgrade - which is a recent II imposed fee.

Since you are used to annual running costs of an RV, it is easier than a regular lay person to comprehend spending money on buying into a quality timeshare system for a nice vacation experience. Until we started cruising, I was concerned about how much we were paying for timesharing. We also owned a second home (since sold) which added $20K in running cost per year. When we start looking at how much good cruises cost - not the Carnival type, timeshare purchase and MF look like such a deal. It is all in one's perspective.

 

[terces]

In regards to "Vacation Forever's" comment, Resale week, besides occupying for yourself or renting it out, it can only be used for trading in II and you will have to pay for the accounts and trades etc.; so this is where the restrictions are - if you buy re-sale weeks, they cannot be used to trade within the Marriott system.

If I understand the other comments, there is no such restriction applied to pure points ownership, but Marriott does have wording in their contracts that would give them the opportunity to implement restrictions if they chose to.

Am I getting this right?

Now if we buy pure points on the resale market, does this mean we will be automatically paying the "club fees" as mentioned in the Vacation Forever response? (or did you mean II club fees)

If we do become points based members and have purchased a points account on the resale market, are we going to run into any other road-blocks for using the points, such as check in priority, upgrade privileges etc?

It occurs to me that one might gain the full status by buying a small package of points from MVC and then adding to it with resale points. Does that make any sense or is it just a waste of money to buy anything at full price?

This is really valuable info and I soooo appreciate the responses

 

[VacationForever]

In regards to "Vacation Forever's" comment, Resale week, besides occupying for yourself or renting it out, it can only be used for trading in II and you will have to pay for the accounts and trades etc.; so this is where the restrictions are - if you buy re-sale weeks, they cannot be used to trade within the Marriott system.

Resale weeks or developer weeks, prior to the introduction of Destination Club in June 2010, have/had always used an external exchange company like II. There are some older Marriott properties that still trade in RCI in addition to II. DC program was only introduced in June 2010 to enable internal trading. Occasionally, twice now, MVC had a program to buy several thousand DC points to enroll resale weeks bought after June 2010. I was 2500 DC points to enroll 1 week and then went up to 3000 DC points in the second promotion.

If I understand the other comments, there is no such restriction applied to pure points ownership, but Marriott does have wording in their contracts that would give them the opportunity to implement restrictions if they chose to.

Am I getting this right?

This was reported here on TUG and the wordings were quoted on one of the threads about MVC retaining the right to implement restrictions. I doubt very much Marriott will implement restrictions. Making resale buyer pay junk fees to make it "whole" is another source of revenue for MVC.

Now if we buy pure points on the resale market, does this mean we will be automatically paying the "club fees" as mentioned in the Vacation Forever response? (or did you mean II club fees)

When you pay "junk" fees, you will be brought into the club and you will have annual club dues ($195 for owner/select level, $235 for Executive and Presidential, and I think $265 for Chairman's Club) which cover the II account membership as well. The issue is that DC points owner may not use II to exchange into another Marriott week. DC points, based on a conversion chart for size and TDI (demand period - high, low season etc...), can be used in II to exchange to non-Marriott weeks. The DC point owner will need to pay for the exchanges and size upgrade. If you buy a combo/hybrid package, the club dues actually cover more... free lock off of the unit, free Marriott-Marriott exchanges. It is best you go through SueDonJ's write up in the Marriott sticky at least twice to familiarize yourself with the system. Her write up is very comprehensive and the best!

If we do become points based members and have purchased a points account on the resale market, are we going to run into any other road-blocks for using the points, such as check in priority, upgrade privileges etc?

After you pay the junk fees, the points will behave exactly the same as those that are bought from Marriott. Don't ignore the strength of buying a hybrid/combo package in the future, i.e. after you dip your toes into Marriott system. Many of the weeks have lower MF than the blended DC MF. There is some savings there each year. Plus it gives you the flexibility of using the weeks to exchange into Marriott timeshare through II which is often WAY cheaper than using DC points for internal booking. As I have highlighted in the earlier paragraph, you may not use DC points to exchange to a Marriott timeshare in II. It is a balance between cost saving with using II and the convenience/lower stress level with booking through DC system. An example... I used 2 weeks of 1BR side of my DSV I weeks and exchanged into 2 weeks of 3BR units at Marriott Ko Olina this March. Using DC points it would have cost 15250 points. MVC only allocate 6450 (3225 per week) exchange points for 2 full weeks of DSV. With II, I get 4 weeks trade out of my 2 DSV I weeks.

It occurs to me that one might gain the full status by buying a small package of points from MVC and then adding to it with resale points. Does that make any sense or is it just a waste of money to buy anything at full price?

Just a waste of money, in my opinion. It is different if you buy a combo package, the cost comes straight down to about $7.50 per point as opposed to $13.84 per point.

This is really valuable info and I soooo appreciate the responses

 

[terces]

Could you help me get to the "SueDonJ" Sticky? I can't seem to find it

 

[jme]

Could you help me get to the "SueDonJ" Sticky? I can't seem to find it

See first page of the Marriott Vacation Club Forum, in the pink section of topics at top, second from the last pink line titled

FAQ - MVC DESTINATIONS Points Program
SueDonJ, Aug 14, 2013

here's a link:
https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php?threads/faq-mvc-destinations-points-program.197346/

 

[Fasttr]

5. Does anyone have a copy of Marriotts contract and rules they could share?

This link should give you some good info on how the program works.
https://www.my-vacationclub.com/common/vc/en-us/pdfs/enrollment_legal_docs/exchange_procedures.pdf

 

[JIMinNC]

In regards to "Vacation Forever's" comment, Resale week, besides occupying for yourself or renting it out, it can only be used for trading in II and you will have to pay for the accounts and trades etc.; so this is where the restrictions are - if you buy re-sale weeks, they cannot be used to trade within the Marriott system.

If you own a resale Marriott week, you can absolutely use that week to trade to other Marriott resorts. You just use II to do the trade. All Marriott-to-Marriott trades are handled though II just like any other trade. In fact, Marriott weeks owners have something called Marriott Priority in II, where Marriott owners have exclusive access to any deposits of other Marriott weeks for the first three weeks or so after that week is deposited into II.

 

[terces]

JIMinNC - thanks, that clears up a few things. Could you or anyone help me understand the "hybrid" concept. Is this simply the case of buying a weeks contract and then buying a points contract, or is it some different animal that is available?

 

[terces]

JIMinNC - my wife just had a look at your upcoming bookings and said "we want to be just like him". Could I ask how large of a Marriott contract you have to accomplish that number of bookings? Did you do the cruise booking through Marriott, and was it cost effective?

 

[kds4]

Great advice. With our RCI experience we have a meager account that costs us $199 in annual fees - from one of the Mexican TS's that make their money off of the All-Inclusive fees - and we have been "gifted" a large block of points we are using to test the waters with exchanges. So far the RCI Gold Crown rating is a bit of a joke as the owners of TS's in these properties seem to be allowed to submit some rose-colored-glass type of ratings, and they even get away with this on Tripadvisor, so we are very interested in trying out the higher end resorts. Having been in an RV for the past number of years and incurring annual costs in the $10,000 to $20,000 range including the depreciation, we don't want to get into nickle and diming when looking for a better quality resort. One suggestion here is to start out by buying a small account on resale and then rent points. I really like this option, and it seems that Marriott will not treat us as second class citizens. Does anyone have first hand experience with this option?

Also, are the Marriott resorts consistently of higher quality, or do you have to be constantly on guard of getting into run-down resorts?

Our first purchase of points was 1,000 directly from Marriott. Since then, we have purchased resale points twice to add to our account. All of our points look, act, and function equally.

Marriott resorts are of a consistent standard, yet each has their own 'personality'. Some properties are activity-centric and quite busy while others are slower and quieter. Some properties are geared toward families w/kids while others are more oriented toward an adult crowd. Some properties are quite large (20+ buildings), while others are very small (only 1 or 2 buildings). Whatever 'flavor' you are looking for, it probably exists in the Marriott world.

 

[kds4]

If you own a resale Marriott week, you can absolutely use that week to trade to other Marriott resorts. You just use II to do the trade. All Marriott-to-Marriott trades are handled though II just like any other trade. In fact, Marriott weeks owners have something called Marriott Priority in II, where Marriott owners have exclusive access to any deposits of other Marriott weeks for the first three weeks or so after that week is deposited into II.

This is especially useful if you have set-up an 'on-going search' (OGS) with II for a specific location and/or dates. This Marriott priority gives 'first dibs' on filling Marriott to Marriott requests before a non-Marriott owner will get access to that deposit.

 

[terces]

If we were to buy a deeded week, is Marriott exercising ROFR on these type of sale/purchases? Is there a thread to see the current level these are being exercised at?

 

[TXTortoise]

Some ROFR history here. http://rofr.net/

 

[JIMinNC]

JIMinNC - thanks, that clears up a few things. Could you or anyone help me understand the "hybrid" concept. Is this simply the case of buying a weeks contract and then buying a points contract, or is it some different animal that is available?

Marriott will allow you to buy a resale week from their in-house resale division, and then, if you buy a points package from them that matches the point value of that resale week, they will allow the resale week to be enrolled in the Points program. So for example, you buy a week that is worth 2850 Points from Marriott Resales and also buy at least that many points from Marriott, then the week will be enrolled, giving you the option to use that week as a regular week or elect to convert it to points in any given year. You can only buy points in 250-point increments, so in this example, you would buy 3000 points at the Marriott rate (probably $11 - $12 or so per point after incentives) to pair with the week that is worth 2850 Points. You would then have access to 5850 total points, or alternatively, 3000 points plus a week at your owned resort that can be used at your resort in your season or traded through II. That is what we call a “hybrid”.