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Creating a liquid timeshare resale market

Ridewithme38

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And Ride is talking about prime weeks too ...its just thats whats important to him is different than whats important to you. or me... I happen to think that my 1950's vintage, studio in the Garden District of New Orleans, week 9, the Mardi Gras event week, is prime stuff. But really, the only definition of Prime here has to do with the ratio of TPU or Points it generates. to the dollars mf it costs

Yup, to me that New Orleans week would be 'nice' to own, but since my vacation plans are scheduled around a 6yr olds vacation schedule....not sure it would be 'prime' for me to bring her to mardi gras...and since she's a VERY fair skinned Red head(she didn't pickup the 1/4 italian side at all)...the beach in the summer is also nice, but a week in a bathing suit on the beach for her....she'd be a beet even with layers upon layers of sunscreen

Both are technically Prime weeks, but for me, Williamsburg, Massanutten, Smugglers Notch, those activity heavy places that a young kid can be a kid are my primes
 

Ridewithme38

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For those that think the Government could step in and force HOA's / Owners to accept deeds they don't want perhaps this quote from the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution will change your mind:

“the power to regulate commerce does not include the power to compel a party to take title to goods or services against its will.”

So unless you think the problems of blue week timeshares having low to no value will lead to a constitutional change I think we can put that possibility to rest once and for all.

The constitution has needed to be updated for decades
 

ronparise

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For those that think the Government could step in and force HOA's / Owners to accept deeds they don't want perhaps this quote from the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution will change your mind:

“the power to regulate commerce does not include the power to compel a party to take title to goods or services against its will.”

So unless you think the problems of blue week timeshares having low to no value will lead to a constitutional change I think we can put that possibility to rest once and for all.

No the government has more important things to compel us to do like buy health insurance. Timeshares are like the pimple on an elephants ass to most folks...not important enough to worry about...Its the owners of the resort (red white an blue weeks, that are going to, by the virtue of common sense force themselves through their own HOA to take back these weeks
 

e.bram

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Ever been to Italy? Lots of fair skinned people in Florence and north and they go to the beach.
 

BocaBum99

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For those that think the Government could step in and force HOA's / Owners to accept deeds they don't want perhaps this quote from the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution will change your mind:

“the power to regulate commerce does not include the power to compel a party to take title to goods or services against its will.”

So unless you think the problems of blue week timeshares having low to no value will lead to a constitutional change I think we can put that possibility to rest once and for all.

You should learn to provide full context of quotes and actually provide the correct references to the US Constitution in your debates. In other words, do a bit more research before you quote texts erroneously. All that does is discredit your intellect and credibility. Here, I will provide the corrections for you.

You are wrong on several fronts.

1) Here is the 10th Amendment of the US Constitution. It does NOT contain the Commerce Clause.

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The 10th Amendment is meant to limit the power of the Federal Government over the states and the people. I am NOT advocating the Federal Government get involved in this issue. In fact, I clearly state that this is a States issue. If anything, you should quote State Constitutions and case law to prove you points. Therefore, your reference is completely irrelevant.

2) The Commerce Clause is in Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution. It states:

Article I, Section 8, Clause 3

[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;

The Commerce Clause deals with Commerce across borders. Real Estate is within a single state. Federal law has nothing to do with laws regulating Intrastate Commerce. You should learn a bit more about the US Constitution before your make inappropriate references to it to prove your points.

3. Here is the full context of the quote you made. Notice that this references that the 10th amendment limits the US Congress from compelling States or Individuals to purchase products. It is expressly putting a limit on the Commerce Clause of the US Congress to regulate inter state commerce. It does NOT in any way shape or form limit the States rights to compel a purchase. In fact, there are plenty of State Mandates that are constitutional like Automobile insurance:

IJ argues: The 10th Amendment forbids Congress from exercising its commerce power to compel states to enter into contractual relations by effectively forcing states to “buy” radioactive waste. Hence “the power to regulate commerce does not include the power to compel a party to take title to goods or services against its will.” And if it is beyond Congress’ power to commandeer the states by compelling them to enter into contracts, it must likewise be beyond Congress’ power to commandeer individuals by requiring them to purchase insurance. Again, the 10th Amendment declares that any powers not given to the federal government are reserved to the states or to the people.

YOU ARE HEREBY PWNED.
 
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ampaholic

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For those that think the Government could step in and force HOA's / Owners to accept deeds they don't want perhaps this quote from the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution will change your mind:

“the power to regulate commerce does not include the power to compel a party to take title to goods or services against its will.”

So unless you think the problems of blue week timeshares having low to no value will lead to a constitutional change I think we can put that possibility to rest once and for all.

Quoting an Institute of Justice brief arguing about the United States Constitution as if it is the actual United States Constitution is intellectually lazy ... tsk tsk.

Please put your nose on the blackboard for 15 minutes.
 
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BocaBum99

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No the government has more important things to compel us to do like buy health insurance. Timeshares are like the pimple on an elephants ass to most folks...not important enough to worry about...Its the owners of the resort (red white an blue weeks, that are going to, by the virtue of common sense force themselves through their own HOA to take back these weeks

In general, I am a free market guy. In this case, I believe State governments have a role in ensuring that there is a market making function in a market that is proving to be not liquid due to industry structure.

If the government doesn't do anything, I don't care. I made my recommendations to show how government action could improve liquidity in the timeshare market. I am sure that such measures would do it. It would create the proper incentives so that all parties would act in their best interests and in so doing would create liquid markets. You can agree or disagree with me. That's my strongly held belief.

I have several ideas on how to use entrepreneurial methods to achieve a similar end result. Others on this thread have ideas as well. All I can say is this, if HOAs do not take deedbacks, then they deserve all the Viking Ships companies can create to force them to do the right thing.
 

Ridewithme38

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I have several ideas on how to use entrepreneurial methods to achieve a similar end result. Others on this thread have ideas as well. All I can say is this, if HOAs do not take deedbacks, then they deserve all the Viking Ships companies can create to force them to do the right thing.

You know what would be great? A thread explaining how to create an LLC...heck if everyone on here created a Viking Ship and filled it up with as many free Timeshares as they could...then let it 'sink', we could get the point across to the HOA/POA/BOD's REALLY quick
 

timeos2

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You should learn to provide full context of quotes and actually provide the correct references to the US Constitution in your debates. In other words, do a bit more research before you quote texts erroneously. All that does is discredit your intellect and credibility. Here, I will provide the corrections for you.

You are wrong on several fronts.

1) Here is the 10th Amendment of the US Constitution. It does NOT contain the Commerce Clause.



The 10th Amendment is meant to limit the power of the Federal Government over the states and the people. I am NOT advocating the Federal Government get involved in this issue. In fact, I clearly state that this is a States issue. If anything, you should quote State Constitutions and case law to prove you points. Therefore, your reference is completely irrelevant.

2) The Commerce Clause is in Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution. It states:



The Commerce Clause deals with Commerce across borders. Real Estate is within a single state. Federal law has nothing to do with laws regulating Intrastate Commerce. You should learn a bit more about the US Constitution before your make inappropriate references to it to prove your points.

3. Here is the full context of the quote you made. Notice that this references that the 10th amendment limits the US Congress from compelling States or Individuals to purchase products. It is expressly putting a limit on the Commerce Clause of the US Congress to regulate inter state commerce. It does NOT in any way shape or form limit the States rights to compel a purchase. In fact, there are plenty of State Mandates that are constitutional like Automobile insurance:



YOU ARE HEREBY PWNED.

Not.

The facts are that even Government - State, Federal, Local - CANNOT force anyone to accept something they do not want. Even taxes are only allowed because you have representatives that must approve them. Insurance is voluntary. Yes, if if want to drive you must have it but driving is a privilege not a right. Property RIGHTS are just that - a RIGHT. The Governments cannot step on them . If they could you'd find an awful lot of lets say undesirable properties in our many inner-cities that the Government & other individuals & Corporations do not wish to own suddenly forced on unwilling parties. It's a MUCH bigger problem than poor value timeshare weeks. But no one is proposing that each City or County resident be forced to take one, pay to operate maintain and pay taxes on it because it can't be sold. Exactly the same concept that forcing an Association to take unwanted deeds would mean.

Can't happen - won't happen and neither will any bogus attempt to mandate that you or I must, by edict, accept a property or contract that someone else decides they no longer want.

Can't happen legally and if tried it will be shot down in every Court in the land. Look for some other crusade if that is what you think the"answer" is.

Yet another quote regarding the importance of the very rights we are discussing:

[FONT=Times,Times New Roman] As Walter B. Mead points out in his book The United States Constitution, the Framers were favorably disposed to history’s great philosophers who held that “concerns for freedom could not be separated from concerns for property” and that the Framers knew “inadequately secured property rights could render vulnerable even the fundamental liberties of speech, press, and meaningful political participation.” Or, as the Framers themselves said,
The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free. (John Adams)

Property is surely a right of mankind, as really as liberty. (John Adams)

Government is instituted to protect property of every sort; as well that which lies in the various rights of individuals, as that which the term particularly expresses. This being the end of government, that alone is a just government, which impartially secures to every man, whatever is his own. (James Madison)​
Most startling of all, perhaps, was Forrest McDonald’s observation in his book Novus Ordo Seclorum that property rights were so important to the Framers that all but 4 of the 55 men at the Constitutional Convention placed their protection behind only liberty itself as the sacred charge of government. And of the four who disagreed on this point, three of them differed not because they valued property rights less than their fellows but because they actually “put [their] protection ahead of liberty as the main object of society.”





[/FONT]
 

AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
You Typed A Mouthful.

The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it anarchy and tyranny commence. If “Thou shalt not covet,” and “Thou shalt not steal,” were not commandments of heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free. (John Adams)

Property is surely a right of mankind, as really as liberty. (John Adams)

Government is instituted to protect property of every sort; as well that which lies in the various rights of individuals, as that which the term particularly expresses. This being the end of government, that alone is a just government, which impartially secures to every man, whatever is his own. (James Madison)
"Property rights" is a misnomer.

People have a right to the use & enjoyment & security of their property.

It's that personal right that the Founding Fathers wrote about, & it was -- & is -- extremely important.

That's why it is recognized as such in the founding documents of the USA.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

ronparise

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I just dont understand how a discussion of property rights enters into this discussion...property rights come with certain obligations, taxes, for example..its the obligations that we at talking about

there is no question that the HOAs have to take back any and all weeks laid on their doorstep...There is no other possibility. If I stop paying my mf, my board will ultimately own my weeks.....and even if they dont take ownership, my share of the fees will be picked up by the other owners so they can meet their obligations

The question is will the HOA develop an exit strategy for their owners or not...if not then by doing nothing, they have decided to take back deeds.

it wont be the government's executive or legislative branches that will force hoa boards to do what they have to do..it will be their owners. or the courts when a group of owners takes their hoa to court
 

timeos2

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I just dont understand how a discussion of property rights enters into this discussion...property rights come with certain obligations, taxes, for example..its the obligations that we at talking about

there is no question that the HOAs have to take back any and all weeks laid on their doorstep...There is no other possibility. If I stop paying my mf, my board will ultimately own my weeks.....and even if they dont take ownership, my share of the fees will be picked up by the other owners so they can meet their obligations

The question is will the HOA develop an exit strategy for their owners or not...if not then by doing nothing, they have decided to take back deeds.

it wont be the government's executive or legislative branches that will force hoa boards to do what they have to do..it will be their owners. or the courts when a group of owners takes their hoa to court

The acceptance of others DEED's is not the same as taxes or maintenance. It goes back to what is sold / agreed to when a condo/timeshare is purchased. The Association is NOT required to take back any week. Only those that are foreclosed (or for which a deed in lieu of froeclosure, something that doesn't get offered until all efforts at collections have been exhausted, not before) can be accepted as that is in the sales documents. Just accepting deeds into the Association & thus making owners subject to the fees, cannot be legally done without those same owners approval. That goes back to the property rights & obligations both sides are agreeing to when you purchase. It is those rights that the Board, Association or even Government cannot unilaterally change. That is how the discussion got here. Ignore that at your own Associations great risk.

I repeat. Would you think it legal that, without foreclosure procedures, a city or County suddenly declared that every abandoned lot/builiding in the City/County was suddenly being deeded to each taxpayer and they would now pay all maintenance, taxes & upkeep? Silly isn't it? It is the same exact idea. A property that is "unsellable". They can bill other taxpayers only if they legally foreclose or take ownership as a legitimate asset to the taxpayers. Often times they will choose NOT to foreclose because they don't want the burden of the unwanted property. They cannot pick 10 rich (or poor) property owners and tell them they must take over building X or lot Y forever more.

It can't be done by a Town or City or County and certainly not by an Association or HOA Board. Can't be done. Any acceptance has to be voluntary by those that are responsible for the ongoing costs. Or forced on them ONLY after proper legal efforts are made to collect fees (taxes) and then only if it makes sense to foreclose. If it doesn't make sense they don't have to foreclose and they certainly don't have to take it back if an owner refuses to pay or simply wants to give it up. Somehow over time virtually every property finds a taker. Just like every timeshare would if it isn't made to easy to simply give it to other owners to pay for.
 

Ridewithme38

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This is why the Viking ship model is so effective...it bypasses the corruption of the HOA/POA/BOD's and sends deeds back to them in bulk....What we really need is a MASSIVE viking ship something holding hundreds of thousands of deeds, about half the amount that people are paying to get rid of....and let that ship sink...

This will sink the resorts that should have sunk a decade ago and make the strong resorts even stronger
 

Beefnot

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The acceptance of others DEED's is not the same as taxes or maintenance. It goes back to what is sold / agreed to when a condo/timeshare is purchased. The Association is NOT required to take back any week. Only those that are foreclosed (or for which a deed in lieu of froeclosure, something that doesn't get offered until all efforts at collections have been exhausted, not before) can be accepted as that is in the sales documents. Just accepting deeds into the Association & thus making owners subject to the fees, cannot be legally done without those same owners approval. That goes back to the property rights & obligations both sides are agreeing to when you purchase. It is those rights that the Board, Association or even Government cannot unilaterally change. That is how the discussion got here. Ignore that at your own Associations great risk.

I repeat. Would you think it legal that, without foreclosure procedures, a city or County suddenly declared that every abandoned lot/builiding in the City/County was suddenly being deeded to each taxpayer and they would now pay all maintenance, taxes & upkeep? Silly isn't it? It is the same exact idea. A property that is "unsellable". They can bill other taxpayers only if they legally foreclose or take ownership as a legitimate asset to the taxpayers. Often times they will choose NOT to foreclose because they don't want the burden of the unwanted property. They cannot pick 10 rich (or poor) property owners and tell them they must take over building X or lot Y forever more.

It can't be done by a Town or City or County and certainly not by an Association or HOA Board. Can't be done. Any acceptance has to be voluntary by those that are responsible for the ongoing costs. Or forced on them ONLY after proper legal efforts are made to collect fees (taxes) and then only if it makes sense to foreclose. If it doesn't make sense they don't have to foreclose and they certainly don't have to take it back if an owner refuses to pay or simply wants to give it up. Somehow over time virtually every property finds a taker. Just like every timeshare would if it isn't made to easy to simply give it to other owners to pay for.

You say this a lot that it cannot be done by HOAs. Explain succinctly why an HOA cannot outline specific criteria under which it will accept deedbacks. I would venture to assert that as long as the HOA follows its bylaws, it can accept deedbacks just as it can levy fees and make other fiduciary decisions on behalf of its owners. I flatly do not believe what you are asserting is true at all.
 

timeos2

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You say this a lot that it cannot be done by HOAs. Explain succinctly why an HOA cannot outline specific criteria under which it will accept deedbacks. I would venture to assert that as long as the HOA follows its bylaws, it can accept deedbacks just as it can levy fees and make other fiduciary decisions on behalf of its owners. I flatly do not believe what you are asserting is true at all.

There are a number of reasons (unless your documents read differently than any I've ever seen).

1) Any benefit offered to one owner must be given to all. So effectively if you open the door to on demand deed acceptance EVERY owner must be given the same chance.

Think about that. Even if you LOVE a resort would you hang on to it if 20 -30 -50 or even 75% of the other owners decided they didn't want to risk a huge increase in fees so they all choose to dump it? Who would take the last 10-20-30% when it was collapsing from owners who didn't really want to get out but now can't afford he suddenly doubled or tripled fees? It is a guaranteed death spiral.

2) (Unfortunately a repeat) An Association cannot legally obligate owners to any contracts beyond one year. Nor can they obligate owners to costs not agreed to in the sales documents. No documents I've ever seen allow the automatic acceptance of deeds. A new disclosure COULD include that, but existing ones, which cannot be altered by Boards, don't have that clause.

Just those two facts alone mean the idea of forced deed backs isn't possible. Nothing to prevent you or anyone from making a case to owners that they will benefit from doing so & then having a vote to alter the documents to allow it. Of course that isn't easy, but it can be done.

So it isn't that there isn't a way to do it. It just isn't the easy way a forced deed back rule would create. You have to do the work to make it happen or it can't. If some here think it would help & work to solve a problem then start the campaign with owners to make their Association accept them. I'll bet your success won't be very great but that is what is required. You can't say there is no way to make it happen.
 

ampaholic

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You say this a lot that it cannot be done by HOAs. Explain succinctly why an HOA cannot outline specific criteria under which it will accept deedbacks. I would venture to assert that as long as the HOA follows its bylaws, it can accept deedbacks just as it can levy fees and make other fiduciary decisions on behalf of its owners. I flatly do not believe what you are asserting is true at all.

John is just saying he dosn't think an outside third party (government, trust etc.) can FORCE the HOA to take a deed back - and that is likely true.

But an HOA can in most cases of it's own volition take a deed-back without any issue except that interval will not generate fees unless it is rented out by the HOA or given or sold to another user/owner who will pay.

John is just arguing "how many Angles fit on the head of a pin" he doesn't really disagree with the concept of voluntary deed-backs. :p
 

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There are a number of reasons (unless your documents read differently than any I've ever seen).

1) Any benefit offered to one owner must be given to all. So effectively if you open the door to on demand deed acceptance EVERY owner must be given the same chance.

Think about that. Even if you LOVE a resort would you hang on to it if 20 -30 -50 = 75% of the other owners decided they didn't want to risk a huge increase in fees so they all choose to dump it? Who would take the last 10-20-30% when it was collapsing from owners who didn't really want to get out but now can't afford he suddenly doubled or tripled fees? It is a guaranteed death spiral.

2) (Unfortunately a repeat) An Association cannot legally obligate owners to any contracts beyond one year. Nor can they obligate owners to costs not agreed to in the sales documents. No documents I've ever seen allow the automatic acceptance of deeds. A new disclosure COULD include that but existing ones, which cannot be altered by Boards, don't have that clause.

Just those two facts alone mean the idea of forced deed backs isn't possible. Nothing to prevent you or anyone from making a case to owners that they will benefit from doing so & then having a vote to alter the documents to allow it. Of course that isn't easy, but it can be done.

So it isn't that there isn't a way to do it. It just isn't the easy way a forced deed back rule would create. You have to do the work to make it happen or it can't. If some here think it would help & work to solve a problem then start the campaign with owners to make their Association accept them. I'll bet your success won't be very great but that is what is required. You can't say there is no way to make it happen.

The benefit does NOT have to be conferred to all. That is simply not true. The CONDITIONS upon which the stilpulate certain policies must be consistently applied. That is a big distinction. For example, if an HOA says that it will accept any deedback if (a) 3 yrs MFs are prepaid or (b) certain hardship criteria are met, that is NOT accepting deedbacks from everyone. It is only accepting deedbacks which conform to their published criteria.

Your point 2 makes no sense to me. I dont even know how to refute it since I dont grasp what you are saying. I am almost certain nonetheless it is wrong.
 

Beefnot

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John is just saying he dosn't think an outside third party (government, trust etc.) can FORCE the HOA to take a deed back - and that is likely true.

But an HOA can in most cases of it's own volition take a deed-back without any issue except that interval will not generate fees unless it is rented out by the HOA or given or sold to another user/owner who will pay.

John is just arguing "how many Angles fit on the head of a pin" he doesn't really disagree with the concept of voluntary deed-backs. :p

That was only half of what he is saying. He IS saying that an HOA cannot accept a deedback.
 

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ronparise

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The acceptance of others DEED's is not the same as taxes or maintenance. It goes back to what is sold / agreed to when a condo/timeshare is purchased. The Association is NOT required to take back any week. Only those that are foreclosed (or for which a deed in lieu of froeclosure, something that doesn't get offered until all efforts at collections have been exhausted, not before) can be accepted as that is in the sales documents. Just accepting deeds into the Association & thus making owners subject to the fees, cannot be legally done without those same owners approval. That goes back to the property rights & obligations both sides are agreeing to when you purchase. It is those rights that the Board, Association or even Government cannot unilaterally change. That is how the discussion got here. Ignore that at your own Associations great risk.

I repeat. Would you think it legal that, without foreclosure procedures, a city or County suddenly declared that every abandoned lot/builiding in the City/County was suddenly being deeded to each taxpayer and they would now pay all maintenance, taxes & upkeep? Silly isn't it? It is the same exact idea. A property that is "unsellable". They can bill other taxpayers only if they legally foreclose or take ownership as a legitimate asset to the taxpayers. Often times they will choose NOT to foreclose because they don't want the burden of the unwanted property. They cannot pick 10 rich (or poor) property owners and tell them they must take over building X or lot Y forever more.

It can't be done by a Town or City or County and certainly not by an Association or HOA Board. Can't be done. Any acceptance has to be voluntary by those that are responsible for the ongoing costs. Or forced on them ONLY after proper legal efforts are made to collect fees (taxes) and then only if it makes sense to foreclose. If it doesn't make sense they don't have to foreclose and they certainly don't have to take it back if an owner refuses to pay or simply wants to give it up. Somehow over time virtually every property finds a taker. Just like every timeshare would if it isn't made to easy to simply give it to other owners to pay for.


Taxes is but one expense of a timeshare as you well know...but it doesnt matter You win. Your property rights guaranteed by the constitution do not require you to take back my deed and I dont care


I still aint paying

Now What???

and I dont care if you throw me in jail, or string me up by the short hairs. I dont care

You will still pay to operate the place and I wont

and I think thats a problem; apparently you dont

Arguing about property rights and what you can or cant be forced to do is avoiding the issue and a waste of time. tell me what you can do to protect your owners against the likes of me.

Actually I like your idea better than mine...I tried to come up with a solution that would bring buyers and sellers together, and move timeshares from folks that wont or cant pay mf to those that will. I know I wont have any trouble finding sellers, it was the buyers I was worried about... You say i dont have to worry there are buyers for all of this stuff...thats great news.....So...Im buying . Ill take any deeded timeshare as long as the payments are brought up to date and if you attach a check for the next three years of mf to it...I wont pay mf, Ill just wait for those buyers to find me....Im gonna be rich..thanks John
 

Beefnot

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TS Today article from 2005

Some good ideas, one of which is HOAs taking back weeks.
 

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Beefnot

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Yes, it does explain it in plain English. More HOAs should operate like that one.
 

Beefnot

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Actually I like your idea better than mine...I tried to come up with a solution that would bring buyers and sellers together, and move timeshares from folks that wont or cant pay mf to those that will. I know I wont have any trouble finding sellers, it was the buyers I was worried about... You say i dont have to worry there are buyers for all of this stuff...thats great news.....So...Im buying . Ill take any deeded timeshare as long as the payments are brought up to date and if you attach a check for the next three years of mf to it...I wont pay mf, Ill just wait for those buyers to find me....Im gonna be rich..thanks John

i am not worthy.
 
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