Creating a liquid timeshare resale market

[ampaholic]

i am not worthy.

You are also not John ... are you?

 

[timeos2]

Yes, it does explain it in plain English. More HOAs should operate like that one.

And who /what decides if the owner is just giving it to the Association because they tired of it or not? "Now please don't read this page and think I'm saying that anyone who doesn't want their unit/week anymore should just give it back to the Association." They can't pick & choose - if one owner gets the offer they all do.

As for the three links in a previous post all three say that an Association does not have to take an ownership back & there are serious consequences of non-payment of fees. What is different about that than what I've said here?

 

[timeos2]

Taxes is but one expense of a timeshare as you well know...but it doesnt matter You win. Your property rights guaranteed by the constitution do not require you to take back my deed and I dont care


I still aint paying

Now What???

and I dont care if you throw me in jail, or string me up by the short hairs. I dont care

You will still pay to operate the place and I wont

and I think thats a problem; apparently you dont

Arguing about property rights and what you can or cant be forced to do is avoiding the issue and a waste of time. tell me what you can do to protect your owners against the likes of me.

Actually I like your idea better than mine...I tried to come up with a solution that would bring buyers and sellers together, and move timeshares from folks that wont or cant pay mf to those that will. I know I wont have any trouble finding sellers, it was the buyers I was worried about... You say i dont have to worry there are buyers for all of this stuff...thats great news.....So...Im buying . Ill take any deeded timeshare as long as the payments are brought up to date and if you attach a check for the next three years of mf to it...I wont pay mf, Ill just wait for those buyers to find me....Im gonna be rich..thanks John

If you actually follow up with that do let us know how it goes (if you still have any assets to be able to afford Internet access that is).

 

[timeos2]

This thread has taken a real problem - the fate of basically unwanted timeshare time - and gone in a few directions. It seems some think that ther needs to be a painless way out of a personal decision to buy /own a property and others feel that the commitment that represents has to be properly handled when the buyer is done with it.

It also touches on the the very idea of a Community or owners banding together for the common good - the Association - and what that entity can, cannot and has to do.

Bottom line there is a glut of timeshare and slowly that glut is killing the very concept. Even the best ownerships are being dragged down by the almost always present lower value - and thus increasingly unwanted - times.

There are a number of approaches to correct the situation. In my opinion the best are to let the market sort it out and not to make it and easy option to simply walk away or leave it to other owners.

Neither side is a perfect solution nor is it likely to be applied 100% to every development. In fact each resort is in the best position to decide what is the best approach for them provided it is a legal option. Many are taking steps that technically may not be legal but assume the risk of being called on it are low. They may be correct.

We as a group and resorts in general cannot create a vibrant marketplace on our own. The market has to evolve on its own despite all the pressures that have decimated it over the last 10 years or so. I'll bet that 10 years from now it will still be discussed yet, somehow, most of the resorts will still be around. Somehow the market will create a way to keep them alive as people want them and developers se money in them.

Maybe we should wait a decade & then continue the discussion if needed?

 

[ronparise]

Here is the web page of one HOA that "splains" it pretty well

"it doesn't make sense for us not to at least offer the option of giving it back."

seems simple doesnt it?

 

[ronparise]

If you actually follow up with that do let us know how it goes (if you still have any assets to be able to afford Internet access that is).

strictly a hypothetical.....but you avoid the question...what do you do with some someone like that?

 

[ronparise]

And who /what decides if the owner is just giving it to the Association because they tired of it or not? "Now please don't read this page and think I'm saying that anyone who doesn't want their unit/week anymore should just give it back to the Association." They can't pick & choose - if one owner gets the offer they all do.

As for the three links in a previous post all three say that an Association does not have to take an ownership back & there are serious consequences of non-payment of fees. What is different about that than what I've said here?

The difference is that they say, thay dont have to take it back, but they would be stupid not to. They will take it back..you have been consistantly saying "it cant be done" not "we dont have to"


By the way "I dont want to", is no different than "I cant" from the hoas point of view...either way mf isnt being paid . Your board has to deal with both situations...

 

[ronparise]

This thread has taken a real problem - the fate of basically unwanted timeshare time - and gone in a few directions. It seems some think that ther needs to be a painless way out of a personal decision to buy /own a property and others feel that the commitment that represents has to be properly handled when the buyer is done with it.

It also touches on the the very idea of a Community or owners banding together for the common good - the Association - and what that entity can, cannot and has to do.

Bottom line there is a glut of timeshare and slowly that glut is killing the very concept. Even the best ownerships are being dragged down by the almost always present lower value - and thus increasingly unwanted - times.

There are a number of approaches to correct the situation. In my opinion the best are to let the market sort it out and not to make it and easy option to simply walk away or leave it to other owners.

Neither side is a perfect solution nor is it likely to be applied 100% to every development. In fact each resort is in the best position to decide what is the best approach for them provided it is a legal option. Many are taking steps that technically may not be legal but assume the risk of being called on it are low. They may be correct.

We as a group and resorts in general cannot create a vibrant marketplace on our own. The market has to evolve on its own despite all the pressures that have decimated it over the last 10 years or so. I'll bet that 10 years from now it will still be discussed yet, somehow, most of the resorts will still be around. Somehow the market will create a way to keep them alive as people want them and developers se money in them.

Maybe we should wait a decade & then continue the discussion if needed?

So status quo is just fine with you and we dont have a problem

 

[Beefnot]

And who /what decides if the owner is just giving it to the Association because they tired of it or not? "

THE HOA

Now please don't read this page and think I'm saying that anyone who doesn't want their unit/week anymore should just give it back to the Association." They can't pick & choose - if one owner gets the offer they all do.

THAT IS NOT TRUE. REREAD MY PRIOR RESPONSE TO YOU. THE HOA CAN DETERMINE THE CRITERIA. IF THEY WANT TO ACCEPT FROM ALL, THEN THEY CAN. IF THEY ONLY WILL ACCEPT UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS, THEY CAN.

As for the three links in a previous post all three say that an Association does not have to take an ownership back & there are serious consequences of non-payment of fees. What is different about that than what I've said here?

YOU HAVE SAID THAT THE HOA CAN NOT TAKE BACK DEEDS. THEY DO NOT HAVE TO, BUT THEY CAN CHOOSE TO.

See above.

 

[Beefnot]

So status quo is just fine with you and we dont have a problem

In fairness, I would concede that timeos2 acknowledges that there is a problem, but as for the solution, he believes the market can sort itself out. So laissez faire is his solution. If the PCCs do not sink some resorts in the interim, he may be right. Still, during times of market dislocation, opportunities can abound to profit handsomely of the disruption. That is where the VSVT comes in if the biz model can be polished.

 

[e.bram]

Does not the same problem exist for points(either lease or trust)? Be they RCI, Wyhdham, Innseason, Festiva and others. Or are points easier to dispose?

 

[ampaholic]

This thread has taken a real problem - the fate of basically unwanted timeshare time - and gone in a few directions. It seems some think that ther needs to be a painless way out of a personal decision to buy /own a property and others feel that the commitment that represents has to be properly handled when the buyer is done with it.

I think most of the posts have been about (however tangentially) increasing liquidity in the market - most agree that would be good.

It also touches on the the very idea of a Community or owners banding together for the common good - the Association - and what that entity can, cannot and has to do.

As I said tangentially.

Bottom line there is a glut of timeshare and slowly that glut is killing the very concept. Even the best ownerships are being dragged down by the almost always present lower value - and thus increasingly unwanted - times.

Actually I think Carolinian hit on it: RCI rents out the "basically unwanted timeshare time" (glut time) - but the proceeds are never seen by the HOA's or actual owners of the weeks - weakening the financials of the HOA's and actual owners of the weeks.

There are a number of approaches to correct the situation. In my opinion the best are to let the market sort it out and not to make it and easy option to simply walk away or leave it to other owners.

Head in the sand is one option - I disagree - but it is your right to think it.

Neither side is a perfect solution nor is it likely to be applied 100% to every development. In fact each resort is in the best position to decide what is the best approach for them provided it is a legal option. Many are taking steps that technically may not be legal but assume the risk of being called on it are low. They may be correct.

Wait, wait haven't you been beefing that ALL HOA's MUST TREAT ALL OWNERS EXACTLY THE SAME - GOOD FOR THE GOOSE ... ????

We as a group and resorts in general cannot create a vibrant marketplace on our own. The market has to evolve on its own despite all the pressures that have decimated it over the last 10 years or so.
-snip-

Head in sand = problem kicked down the road ...

 

[strandlover]

In fairness, I would concede that timeos2 acknowledges that there is a problem, but as for the solution, he believes the market can sort itself out. So laissez faire is his solution. If the PCCs do not sink some resorts in the interim, he may be right. ..

I also say that there is a problem and that the strategy of some (many?) HOAs is indeed laissez faire.

It would be interesting to know how many resorts have tanked from 2008 to date and what percentage of the aggregate inventory these units represent. For the purpose of simplicity, keeping the anslysis within the US.... I am guessing 1-2% of aggregate units.

Do I hear more?

 

[Ridewithme38]

I also say that there is a problem and that the strategy of some (many?) HOAs is indeed laissez faire.

It would be interesting to know how many resorts have tanked from 2008 to date and what percentage of the aggregate inventory these units represent. For the purpose of simplicity, keeping the anslysis within the US.... I am guessing 1-2% of aggregate units.

Do I hear more?

define tanked, i've heard of less then a half dozen resorts that have closed their doors because of Owners not wanting to own/buy there...i'd say it's less then a 10th of a percent...although, i think upwards of 10% NEED to close their doors

 

[strandlover]

define tanked, i've heard of less then a half dozen resorts that have closed their doors because of Owners not wanting to own/buy there...i'd say it's less then a 10th of a percent...although, i think upwards of 10% NEED to close their doors

Tanked: resorts that have closed their doors.

You are probably correct, way less than 1%

Now, define "need to close their doors".

 

[Ridewithme38]

Tanked: resorts that have closed their doors.

You are probably correct, way less than 1%

Now, define "need to close their doors".

35%-65% of owners would bail if given the opportunity, the places that only have owners because of the constant threats and intimidation the HOA/POA/BOD puts upon people through the major, major credit hit that comes from Foreclosure

These are Vacation ownerships, not prison sentences, if someone wants out they shouldn't have to trade what they have worked their entire life to build, risking their home, cars, jobs, spouses, credit, simply to get away

 

[strandlover]

35%-65% of owners would bail if given the opportunity, the places that only have owners because of the constant threats and intimidation the HOA/POA/BOD puts upon people through the major, major credit hit that comes from Foreclosure

These are Vacation ownerships, not prison sentences, if someone wants out they shouldn't have to trade what they have worked their entire life to build, risking their home, cars, jobs, spouses, credit, simply to get away

You didn't define "need to close their doors". The notion of bailing "because I don't wanna play anymore" does not hold water. These are deeded, like real estate. If these owners wanna bail because of only 1/52 ownership, imagine the argument 52/52 condo owners have for traditional vacation ownerships.

Granted, there are no doubt resorts that are on life support. It's up to each owner in those resorts to become actively involved.

 

[AwayWeGo]

HOA-BODs Did Not Create The Problem.

35%-65% of owners would bail if given the opportunity, the places that only have owners because of the constant threats and intimidation the HOA/POA/BOD puts upon people through the major, major credit hit that comes from Foreclosure

These are Vacation ownerships, not prison sentences, if someone wants out they shouldn't have to trade what they have worked their entire life to build, risking their home, cars, jobs, spouses, credit, simply to get away

The trouble is, lots & lots of timeshare owners were arm-twisted & high-pressured into buying their full-freight timeshares with zero chance to look before they leapt. No surprise therefore that they didn't know what they were getting into.

That's not the HOA-BOD's fault, nor is it the HOA-BOD's mess to clean up when the people who succumbed to the timeshare sellers' ballyhoo & razzle-dazzle discover the hard way that it's too expensive, they can't afford it, they don't want it, & they want somebody to take'm off the hook that the full-freight timeshare sellers snagged'm on.

Let's focus less on sticking the HOA-BODs with responsibility for fixing this real problem & let's search instead for ways to make the timeshare companies' chickens come home to roost.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Ridewithme38]

If the HOA/POA/BOD's are aware of the con game that gets people to buy Timeshares, but doesn't act to fix the problem, they are just a guilty as the original salesman....This is the problem we are running into today, slowing raising fee's because the HOA/POA/BOD's aren't taking action....I really do believe that what we need is a large movement, someone to take the hundreds of thousands of unwanted deeds that are being given away free and dump them back on the HOA/POA/BOD's in one big pile....This IMO, is the only want the HOA/POA/BOD's will take notice and actually act on the mistakes they are making

The trouble is, lots & lots of timeshare owners were arm-twisted & high-pressured into buying their full-freight timeshares with zero chance to look before they leapt. No surprise therefore that they didn't know what they were getting into.

That's not the HOA-BOD's fault, nor is it the HOA-BOD's mess to clean up when the people who succumbed to the timeshare sellers' ballyhoo & razzle-dazzle discover the hard way that it's too expensive, they can't afford it, they don't want it, & they want somebody to take'm off the hook that the full-freight timeshare sellers snagged'm on.

Let's focus less on sticking the HOA-BODs with responsibility for fixing this real problem & let's search instead for ways to make the timeshare companies' chickens come home to roost.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[Ridewithme38]

Why when a Timeshare is foreclosed upon does it go back to the HOA/POA/BOD instead of the developer? Maybe thats the change that needs to happen...If we can get a super majority vote on anything, it would be to change that

 

[am1]

Why when a Timeshare is foreclosed upon does it go back to the HOA/POA/BOD instead of the developer? Maybe thats the change that needs to happen...If we can get a super majority vote on anything, it would be to change that

The developer is not the one not not collecting the maintenance fees. The developer has no interest in foreclosing. Unless they hold a mortgage.

 

[Carolinian]

John, I think you have pretty well nailed it in many ways.

I disagree about HOA's taking deedbacks to a point. HOA's should not be wide open on this, but they need to selectively take weeks back in extenuating circumstances but never advertise that fact. They should not be a dumping ground for every irresponsible deadbeat who just wants to walk away. And they should go nuclear with the PCC's.

HOA's should also provide guidance to members wanting to sell their weeks, and some means of advertising, like a resale page on the resort website and a bulliten board at check-in with cards for owners wanting to sell. They also need to be proactive in selling their HOA weeks, or like Ocean Villas II just giving them away.

The best resale market is getting a local timeshare rental / resale specialist. In eastern NC, both the Outer Banks and Crystal Coast have such brokers, but I do not think that the Cape Fear Coast does or could even support one with only one timeshare. That is indeed one hurdle to the resale market when there is not enough local timeshare to support a broker. But then again, I remember when I was at one UK resort which had a resale / rental broker office on site who handles just that resort.

This thread has taken a real problem - the fate of basically unwanted timeshare time - and gone in a few directions. It seems some think that ther needs to be a painless way out of a personal decision to buy /own a property and others feel that the commitment that represents has to be properly handled when the buyer is done with it.

It also touches on the the very idea of a Community or owners banding together for the common good - the Association - and what that entity can, cannot and has to do.

Bottom line there is a glut of timeshare and slowly that glut is killing the very concept. Even the best ownerships are being dragged down by the almost always present lower value - and thus increasingly unwanted - times.

There are a number of approaches to correct the situation. In my opinion the best are to let the market sort it out and not to make it and easy option to simply walk away or leave it to other owners.

Neither side is a perfect solution nor is it likely to be applied 100% to every development. In fact each resort is in the best position to decide what is the best approach for them provided it is a legal option. Many are taking steps that technically may not be legal but assume the risk of being called on it are low. They may be correct.

We as a group and resorts in general cannot create a vibrant marketplace on our own. The market has to evolve on its own despite all the pressures that have decimated it over the last 10 years or so. I'll bet that 10 years from now it will still be discussed yet, somehow, most of the resorts will still be around. Somehow the market will create a way to keep them alive as people want them and developers se money in them.

Maybe we should wait a decade & then continue the discussion if needed?

 

[Carolinian]

If the HOA/POA/BOD's are aware of the con game that gets people to buy Timeshares, but doesn't act to fix the problem, they are just a guilty as the original salesman....This is the problem we are running into today, slowing raising fee's because the HOA/POA/BOD's aren't taking action....I really do believe that what we need is a large movement, someone to take the hundreds of thousands of unwanted deeds that are being given away free and dump them back on the HOA/POA/BOD's in one big pile....This IMO, is the only want the HOA/POA/BOD's will take notice and actually act on the mistakes they are making

Ride, you do not seem to grasp that the HOA's are made up of all the individual owners at a resort. What you are suggesting is that all the indiividual owners of a resort as a group be responsible for the sins of the developers. That is nonsense. If the developer missold, as many do, then this is called for its vicims to be responsible for that misselling.

You are also calling for a ''movement'' to dump on the individual owners, because that is what happens when you dump on an HOA. It is the individual owners who have to pay any costs.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Ride, you do not seem to grasp that the HOA's are made up of all the individual owners at a resort. What you are suggesting is that all the indiividual owners of a resort as a group be responsible for the sins of the developers. That is nonsense. If the developer missold, as many do, then this is called for its vicims to be responsible for that misselling.

You are also calling for a ''movement'' to dump on the individual owners, because that is what happens when you dump on an HOA. It is the individual owners who have to pay any costs.

With enough 'dump' on the HOA/POA/BOD, they will be forced to either close the doors or fix the problems that caused all of these owners to walk away...

The HOA/POA/BOD are members of the ownership like Congress and the House are 'Citizen Taxpayers' sure they pay taxes and they are effected by the laws they pass, but it's not exactly the 'morally superior' that get the job, its all about their pockets first...Just like the HOA/POA/BOD members, they do what benefits them first and the rest of the ownership next

 

[Carolinian]

Does not the same problem exist for points(either lease or trust)? Be they RCI, Wyhdham, Innseason, Festiva and others. Or are points easier to dispose?

Points are generally harder to dispose of as the range of buyers is more limited. Tradional week-for-week exchangers do not want them and neither do own to use buyers who want a specific week at a specific place. DRI points in its European collection are probably some of the hardest timeshares to dispose of anywhere, as DRI limits sales to only other DRI points owners and will not take deedbacks. There have been rumblings about that limitation be at least partly lifted but I have not kept up with how that is going.