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Harborside scam

Discussion in 'Vistana Signature Experiences (formerly Starwood)' started by caterina25, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. caterina25

    caterina25 TUG Member

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    i am sick of Harborside increasing their maintenance yearly and now they reduced the number of people per unit.
    I came across this older post and I believe it’s getting worse.
    OVERBOARD

    I am a Harborside at Atlantis Phase 2 Owner. Since 2004 our MF have risen from $1800 (I own a three bedroom lock off) to $3150. It is clear that the Directors of our Association are doing what is good for Starwood and Kerzner (developer). One director works for SW and the other works for Kerzner.

    The following are several issues worth considering:

    My view (after 8 years of ownership) is that the fractional ownerships are not what SVN is really selling...what they are selling is an HOA "trap"...they make a lot more money on HOA fees than selling TS.

    Once someone is locked into a TS contract they'll use if for a few years and them try to sell...many did and the economy suffered in 2008-09. Concurrently the HOA fees rise to the point that the rental value is the same as the HOA fees, thus there is no equity in the unit...but the fractional owner can't "get out" unless they "sell"...consequently the owner is held hostage to an ownership, that if foreclosed upon, will drag their credit rating down.

    The collective management fees for Harborside II now exceed $3.2 million a year. The total HOA fees are close to $20 million a year...$20 million a year to maintain a large apartment complex with people coming and going on a weekly basis. It is clearly outrageous.

    As an example of the sheer audacity of these guys... the fees paid to Paradise Island Tourism Development Association at $52,475 are for a website owned by a third party marketing company. It does nothing except promote all Atlantis/Kerzner related properties and take reservations. Harborside is promoted among the other Atlantis properties, say 12% of the site. ...the company has no google ads (no costs), does not purchase any keywords.

    So ...Who benefits by this gargantuan yearly fee for a simple website?

    All the uncollected HOA fees, which are about $1 million, are charged back to us fractional owners. If a unit is foreclosed upon, when is the unit actually sold? No accounting for this...

    but ...if a foreclosed unit is sold, are some of the proceeds used to make the HOA whole again for that fractional share's unpaid fees ..I think NOT. No accounting for any of this.

    I'll bet SVN holds these foreclosed units in some sort of abeyance so the developer does not have to pay the pro-rata sure of the HOA on them. SVN simply passes on the unpaid HOA fees to the remaining owners, still generating their same outrageous management fees and kickbacks. There is no incentive to sell these foreclosed units, as their marketing department can continue selling "new" unsold fractional shares, pulling new owners into the abyss.

    Any inquiry as to the nature of MF costs, if services are being bid out, or inquiries about what is actually delivered is met with stonewalling or deflections.

    I receive unsolicited crap from TS resellers all the time. I ask how they found me and have been told that my ownership is public record. What needs to be done is to find out who the actual fractional owners are and recruit them the vote in a new board, who can then install a new management company.

    So there's a lot of due diligence and stealth discovery that needs to occur. I believe this is the tip of a huge iceberg...with 20 properties, SVO is making 100's of millions of dollars by self dealing, kickbacks, etc.

    If you are interested in protecting your interests, please send me:

    A. Your name, phone and email B. Contract number C. What you own

    I will start creating a database of owners that have an interest in correcting this nefarious arrangement and righting the wrong.

    Am speaking with a few lawyers about a class action suit against the Association as they have breached their fiduciary duty to the fractional owners. I would say HR 1 could benefit by coming on board.

    I am a pit bull on a piece of raw liver when it comes to abuses like this....people who do bad things?...bad things happen to them....

    As well, feel free to call and discuss.

    Henry Siegel 323.680.5411
     
  2. T-Dot-Traveller

    T-Dot-Traveller TUG Member

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    1) Value in most timeshare ownership is the vacation memories with family .

    2) Your frustration is logical / the issues you raise are unlikely to be resolved to your satisfaction .

    3) A scam is 3 card monte with a well rehearsed shill getting you open your wallet / perhaps this is the equivalent - but likely legal .

    Good Luck -
    and may the force be with you .
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  3. caterina25

    caterina25 TUG Member

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    That’s is true but for some people these inflated fees and the down sizing villa occupancy has caused them to abandon their ownership.More delinquent accounts cause higher fees.
     
    T-Dot-Traveller likes this.
  4. pacman777

    pacman777 TUG Member

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    Yeah I would never own there even if a platinum unit was given to me for free. I like having the ability to trade in using StarOptions. Haven’t done a long stay but booked a single night when so we could use the Atlantis pass when our Disney cruise stopped there. It was about 10k StarOptions which I value at about $100 based on my Kierland maintenance fees. Got 4 passes to Atlantis for $100 vs Disney charging more than $200 per pass. What a bargain!
     
  5. caterina25

    caterina25 TUG Member

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    That was a bargain!
     
  6. komosatp

    komosatp TUG Member

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    Henry, you know Kerzner is no longer part of Atlantis, right? Back in 2012 Sol Kerzner had to walk away from Atlantis and hand the keys over to Brookfield asset management.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/brookf...efinancing-debt-on-atlantis-resort-1404239562

    The owners of the giant Bahamas resort complex known as Atlantis have completed a $1.9 billion recapitalization of the hotel and gambling destination and will replace the hotel manager a few months before a rival resort is poised to open nearby.

    A Brookfield Asset Management property fund has reached an agreement for a $1.75 billion credit facility with a lending group. The fund will also invest $195 million of equity in Atlantis, a 171-acre resort with 3,414 hotel rooms, a casino and water-park attractions that South African hotelier Sol Kerzner developed and opened in the 1990s.

    The credit facility will be used to replace existing debt, a Brookfield official said.

    Marriott International Inc., which will provide a $100 million junior loan to Brookfield as part of the lending package, has also reached a franchise agreement with Atlantis to become part of Marriott's Autograph Collection. The more than 60 hotels in the collection operate independently but tap into Marriott's global booking and rewards systems.

    Brookfield, which took control of Atlantis from Mr. Kerzner as part of a 2012 debt restructuring, is also removing Kerzner International as manager of the resort. Starting in September, the Atlantis will be run by a newly created Brookfield hotel-management company, ending Mr. Kerzner and his company's association with the groundbreaking resort he created.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  7. suzannesimon

    suzannesimon TUG Member

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    Marriott Frenchman's Cove, Hyatt Sunset Harbor, Harborside at Atlantis, Marriott Aruba Surf Club, Marriott Grande Ocean, Westin Kierland Villas, Westin Lagunamar
    I have 2 3-bedroom Gold weeks at Atlantis and yes the maintenance fees are $3600 for each one. I bought them resale for $10,000 and $7,000. Now you can probably get them for almost nothing. That being said, they routinely rent for $2000+ above maintenance fees for each one. I have recouped my purchase price and maintenance fees on these after 5 years. I have 10 timeshares and these are the only ones where I’ve covered my purchase price as well as fees. Some years we use one and rent the other and it almost covers the fees for both of them. I guess I’m saying that you can buy them for nothing - get 2 if you can - and you can pay down the maintenance fees with rent. I can give them away when I no longer can travel and I haven’t lost a dime.
     
    T-Dot-Traveller likes this.
  8. komosatp

    komosatp TUG Member

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    I'm not sure what Caterina/Henry's agenda is, but isn't HRA one of the better timeshares out there from a renting perspective?
     
    suzannesimon likes this.
  9. komosatp

    komosatp TUG Member

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    Henry/Caterina, I've been thinking about your post and there are several things you need to clean up to be taken seriously:
    Like have you owned since 2004 or 2011? You posted the above in 2019.
    Starwood and Kerzner aren't involved with Harborside. Kerzner lost control of Atlantis in 2012, and Starwood has morphed into Marriott and the timeshare arm is/was Vistana, which is now also part of Marriott.
    Can you elaborate on why $20 million is 'outrageous'. Do you know of a comparable timeshare development that operates more inexpensively?
    This was discussed extensively on this thread:
    https://tugbbs.com/forums/index.php...occupancy-change-rollaways-gone.264663/page-2

    During that discussion, I found this document:
    [​IMG]
    Have you tried to find your copy of this? What does it show for occupancy?
     
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