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Is 2019 the 'Year of the Timeshare'? [Marriott/Vistana/Hyatt in the DC speculation]

JIMinNC

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Be prepared for sticker shock - Marriott Resales has always priced Weeks equivalent or nearly to direct-purchase original Weeks, and the Trust Points cost of hybrid packages is still high. As has been said, hybrid packages may be the most economical way of buying direct because the Week somewhat alleviates the higher costs of straight Trust Points and associated MF's, but it's still not an inexpensive proposition.

I agree with the sticker shock since a hybrid bundle usually costs over $20K, but that sticker shock is mainly due to the price of the Trust points that are in the bundles. While Marriott Resales does charge higher prices for their resale weeks than the aftermarket, it's nowhere near typical developer pricing for resales, at least at US resorts. Our original entree into MVC in 2014 was via a hybrid bundle built around a Silver Barony week, and that week only cost $3300. The matching points added about $19K. When MVC Resales once listed their prices online, I believe you could buy a 3BR Platinum Grande Vista for about $12K, Maui Ocean Club 2BR OV weeks were around $20K (versus $16K on the third-party market), and I think I recall Grande Ocean 2BR OF Gold could be had for $18K or so.

Back when MVC was still selling developer weeks, resale pricing was virtually the same as developer, but after the advent of the DC, their resale pricing dropped dramatically, just not all the way to aftermarket levels.
 
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JIMinNC

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I heard the amnesty promo is back on, is the minimum 10K. With all the speculation I’m wondering if it’s best to wait and see what they offer or get in before they announce. The issue remains, closing in time to beat any cut off. They could announce now but begin in 2020. Would that affect any resale purchases? All of this can make ya crazy, when all I want to do is sit on a beach :banana:

The amnesty promo for 2019 ran from sometime this spring (March or April, I recall) until July 7. Have you heard it has been extended beyond July 7?
 

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Can you provide more specifics on what issues led to the ultimatums with Aruba Ocean Club et al? Did it have to do with points enrollment? Or were there more severe issues involved?

It had nothing to do with the DC, dating all the way back to 2008. Owners were hit with a substantial multi-year Special Assessment for extensive damage to the resort resulting from a combination of poor construction, inferior products and a resort Board that hadn't been as fiscally responsible in funding the Reserves as they should have been. Marriott didn't build from the ground up, it acquired the property after construction had started and then completed the build before selling Weeks. Marriott assumed a portion of the costs that they could have justifiably (according to the governing docs) assessed to the owners, thereby lessening the amount of the owners' SA's. Despite that, a Board member spearheaded an effort to gain support for a class action suit misusing proprietary information he gleaned as a member, but it was a poorly-established and -run effort that was doomed to fail from its start.

That's the basics with a heavy dose of my negative opinion of that overall effort. I'm sure others will have a different take. ;)
 

rickandcindy23

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You may be pleasantly surprised. :) The current Enrollment Fee is $2,395 no matter how many eligible Weeks you're enrolling. Even at the DC inception when the enrollment fees for multiple Weeks were based on how the units were purchased, i.e. $695 (direct-purchase) and $1,995 (external resale,) they were flat fees for a single account, not per Week.
That could be a nice surprise. I bought all of our weeks resale, so I am sure that will be the consideration. I got most for free, actually. We bought Marriott's Willow Ridge resale after DC, and the offer to bring our weeks in was like $70K (for two weeks and a purchase at Ko Olina).
 

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The amnesty promo for 2019 ran from sometime this spring (March or April, I recall) until July 7. Have you heard it has been extended beyond July 7?
Hearsay that there was a promo running in the summer but they could have been referencing the promo you say expired July 7th. It’s prob expired and they weren’t aware.
 

CPNY

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You may be pleasantly surprised. :) The current Enrollment Fee is $2,395 no matter how many eligible Weeks you're enrolling. Even at the DC inception when the enrollment fees for multiple Weeks were based on how the units were purchased, i.e. $695 (direct-purchase) and $1,995 (external resale,) they were flat fees for a single account, not per Week.

$2,395 for multiple weeks isn’t bad at all. But would I keep my membership in the VSN and keep my star options in that trust? Or if I would be enrolled in and subject to DC trust inventory, booking back into VSN Resorts, that would make me think twice on enrolling. Then add in possibility of a dual membership fee one for DC and another for VSN if the week in enrolled in both.
 

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$2,395 for multiple weeks isn’t bad at all. But would I keep my membership in the VSN and keep my star options in that trust? Or if I would be enrolled in and subject to DC trust inventory, booking back into VSN Resorts, that would make me think twice on enrolling. Then add in possibility of a dual membership fee one for DC and another for VSN if the week in enrolled in both.

All questions for which there can't be any answers until/unless something is rolled out officially. :)
 

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That could be a nice surprise. I bought all of our weeks resale, so I am sure that will be the consideration. I got most for free, actually. We bought Marriott's Willow Ridge resale after DC, and the offer to bring our weeks in was like $70K (for two weeks and a purchase at Ko Olina).

You could get even more lucky and they'll let you enroll your officially-ineligible Marriott Weeks at the same time. There's nothing to say they will or that they won't allow it, and wouldn't that be nice?!
 

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We bought Marriott's Willow Ridge resale after DC, and the offer to bring our weeks in was like $70K (for two weeks and a purchase at Ko Olina).

That sounds like their standard amnesty promo for resale weeks bought after June 2010. When the DC first started, it was much cheaper to bring all your pre-6/2010 resale weeks in - a fee only, no points purchase required. The speculation in this thread has been that if they want to try to get a lot of Vistana inventory into any cross-program exchange, they will have to make a similarly attractive fee-based offer to Vistana owners like they did for pre-6/2010 legacy MVC weeks owners. Presumably they would say if you owned Vistana before X date, you qualify for the discounted pricing. But it's all really just us guessing.
 

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All questions for which there can't be any answers until/unless something is rolled out officially. :)
I know lol I’m asking hypothetically. The suspense lol. Watch they roll out the easiest solution and we are all left to scratch our heads thinking, heh, that was easy lol.
 

JIMinNC

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You could get even more lucky and they'll let you enroll your officially-ineligible Marriott Weeks at the same time. There's nothing to say they will or that they won't allow it, and wouldn't that be nice?!

That would be amazing, but I ain't holdin' my breath.

Just based on how many TUGgers have taken advantage of those annual amnesty promotions that require you to shell out $33K or more, I suspect those promos have been very lucrative for MVW. I can't imagine them offering enrollment to pre-2010 owners that doesn't involve a points purchase. It would seem that would convert too many potential points sales to a one time fee.
 

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I know lol I’m asking hypothetically. The suspense lol. Watch they roll out the easiest solution and we are all left to scratch our heads thinking, heh, that was easy lol.

Some parallels can be drawn and educated guesses made between what happens with Marriott Weeks and what may happen with Vistana/Hyatt ownerships, relative to the DC, but some things are just too complicated or present brand new challenges that we just can't even take a guess. It's not going out on a limb to say that if/when something is rolled out, a lot of the speculation will help things click into focus while a lot of it will be completely irrelevant.
 

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That would be amazing, but I ain't holdin' my breath.

Just based on how many TUGgers have taken advantage of those annual amnesty promotions that require you to shell out $33K or more, I suspect those promos have been very lucrative for MVW. I can't imagine them offering enrollment to pre-2010 owners that doesn't involve a points purchase. It would seem that would convert too many potential points sales to a one time fee.

I know, unlikely, but there's always a possibility ... :)
 

CPNY

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Some parallels can be drawn and educated guesses made between what happens with Marriott Weeks and what may happen with Vistana/Hyatt ownerships, relative to the DC, but some things are just too complicated or present brand new challenges that we just can't even take a guess. It's not going out on a limb to say that if/when something is rolled out, a lot of the speculation will help things click into focus while a lot of it will be completely irrelevant.

Oh I’m sure bits and pieces of the solution has already been laid out in all of these threads or maybe Marriott execs are on here reading and saying, “I like that idea” oh “that one looks good too” lol.
 

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are there any arguments against enrolling Vistana weeks into their system? I will have to weigh pros and cons. Most of our weeks are platinum Lagunamar that we enjoy using for us, friends and close family (friends have to reimburse us the MF). You can also rent them to strangers for more than the MF. Given that on top of the MF, we already pay SVN fees and Interval annual/ exchange fees, paying few thousands to enroll plus DC annual fees plus God knows what other DC fees they come up with does make me think it won't be a no brainer. Unless the availability will dry up completely, i do not think that I will give up Interval trading anytime soon since it is the place where you can squeeze more value than anywhere else. We have been members for a year and we already exchanged for 2 bdr at Grand Solmar, Marriott Ko'olina, Renaissance Aruba and week 51 at Trapp in VT, all depositing just studios!
 
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You may be pleasantly surprised. :) The current Enrollment Fee is $2,395 no matter how many eligible Weeks you're enrolling. Even at the DC inception when the enrollment fees for multiple Weeks were based on how the units were purchased, i.e. $695 (direct-purchase) and $1,995 (external resale,) they were flat fees for a single account, not per Week.

Plus, you got 800 bonus DC points when you enrolled when they first introduced the Destinations Club. :)
 

csalter2

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The amnesty promo for 2019 ran from sometime this spring (March or April, I recall) until July 7. Have you heard it has been extended beyond July 7?

I just spoke to a salesman a couple of days ago. It’s on for another week.
 
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CPNY

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are there any arguments against enrolling Vistana weeks into their system? I will have to weigh pros and cons. Most of our weeks are platinum Lagunamar that we enjoy using for us, friends and close family (friends have to reimburse us the MF). You can also rent them to strangers for more than the MF. Given that on top of the MF, we already pay SVN fees and Interval annual/ exchange fees, paying few thousands to enroll plus DC annual fees plus God knows what other DC fees they come up with does make me think it will not be a no brainier decision. Unless the availability will dry up completely, i do not think that I will give up Interval trading anytime soon since it is the place where you can squeeze more value than anywhere else. We have been members for a year and we already exchanged for 2 bdr at Grand Solmar, Marriott Ko'olina, Renaissance Aruba and week 51 at Trapp in VT, all depositing just studios!

It depends on what is rolled out, how much more they want for access, if that access is worth it (to the owner), what you may lose (if anything), etc. it all depends on how you use your VOI’s. It seems that everyone here travels at least 80% (solid guess, could be way off) using their VOI. For someone like me who has been traveling internationally and been loving doing the airbnb villa/flat route and using my VOI every other year or so, the burden of a huge expense isn’t worth it, for me. If you have kids and want more destinations then I think opening the destinations for Vistana owners to join the DC program could be an excellent option. DC owners on the other hand get access to a handful of new destinations. Tbh, they shouldn’t be charged anything, since in reality they are just getting access to a Westin named resort. They have so many destinations the Vistana owner doesn’t. As a VSN owner I just want my star options booking in the resorts I like.

Some will have decisions to make whenever they roll out what they will roll out. Good luck to us all.
 

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It occurs to me, during the couple years preceding the DC rollout there were a few different "surveys" sent out by Marriott corporate to the timeshare owners asking about points-based products in the industry and whether/how Marriott owners could be enticed to participate in one if Marriott offered it, several of them discussed extensively on TUG. They included some vague commentary but also very detailed questions involving every aspect from cost to usage to positive/negative connotations, and everything in between. Those surveys REALLY ramped up the speculation that had already been in the TUG pipeline after a poster would report an occasional comment heard in sales presentations about upcoming changes. When it was rolled out some of what was delineated in those surveys came to fruition triggering light-bulb moments, some was completely irrelevant.

Have Vistana/Hyatt people gotten any surveys?
 

CPNY

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It occurs to me, during the couple years preceding the DC rollout there were a few different "surveys" sent out by Marriott corporate to the timeshare owners asking about points-based products in the industry and whether/how Marriott owners could be enticed to participate in one if Marriott offered it, several of them discussed extensively on TUG. They included some vague commentary but also very detailed questions involving every aspect from cost to usage to positive/negative connotations, and everything in between. Those surveys REALLY ramped up the speculation that had already been in the TUG pipeline after a poster would report an occasional comment heard in sales presentations about upcoming changes. When it was rolled out some of what was delineated in those surveys came to fruition triggering light-bulb moments, some was completely irrelevant.

Have Vistana/Hyatt people gotten any surveys?
Hmm not that I can remember. Just went back through email and didn’t see anything except for the letter outlining the acquisition was complete


I am pleased to share that the transaction is complete. Through this combination, we are excited to introduce new opportunities for Owners.


Owners in the Vistana Signature Network can now use their ownership to access Marriott hotels and resorts worldwide through the SPG program.

Previously, hotel loyalty points received in connection with your vacation ownership were only eligible to be used at SPG-branded hotels. Now, you have even more choices at over 6,500 hotels and resorts across 29 unique brands in 127 countries, including Marriott-branded hotels — all while continuing to receive preferred status recognition as a Gold Elite member in the SPG program.

Receive expanded and enhanced discounts at Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, and Marriott Vacation Club resorts.

All Owners will now receive 25% off available nightly rental rates, as well as exclusive discounts on certain food, beverage and activities at participating outlets, at Sheraton Vacation Club, Westin Vacation Club, and Marriott Vacation Club resorts, subject to applicable terms and conditions. To make a reservation or learn more, log in to vistana.com and select Owner Exclusives on your Owner Dashboard. Additional information may be provided at time of check-in.


We are extremely excited about the future. We want to assure you that this is only the beginning as we continue to work hard to determine whether additional benefits and services could potentially be made available in the future from our newly combined company. Our goals remain consistent: to provide the highest-quality vacation experiences and greatest flexibility for our valued Owners.
 

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II is automatically bundled into the SVN SO annual fee so there probably will be some kind of offset for that in the offer so we don't have to pay that twice.
 

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Received the same. Plus now when you go into your Dashboard, it shows how many Bonvoy Pts your VOI can convert 2.
 

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Not all mandatory resorts have ROFR. Vistana Villages is one of them and don’t quote me but I believe WKV and St. John doesn’t as well. The question is, is the mandatory part of the deed for membership in “VSN only”, and if the program is done away with, do they get membership granted in another program? They would have to make many petty changes to start eliminating these resorts to ensure mandatory resorts are left out.

They could spin what off? The mandatory properties? I guess they could, but there are some desirable properties that are mandatory. Spin them off how exactly? Where would they go, their own program or the DC program? If So are you guaranteeing DC membership for owners of the deed? It transfers on resale, how would they get rid of that? What would be the point? But something tells me the answer to all of this is going to be much more simpler than everyone is speculating.
I think if you'll read the POS critically you'll see there are options that would allow a lot of changes. They could pick and chose what to spin off if they wanted or even sell of entire segments.

Sorry that I focused everyone on the "lock-off" capability; this wasn't my intention.

Let me put it another way - a full 2 bedroom unit at (most) mainland SVn properties sleeps 8 people comfortably, with 2 bedrooms, 2 living rooms (both will full pullout sofa's) a full kitchen and a good sized kitchenette. As in the Grand Tahoe example, MVC gave large 2 bedroom units there a point premium - I think that means it would be reasonable for an Westin Mission Hills 2-bedroom owner to expect a premium in DC points offered over and above a MVC Desert Springs owner. There is simply more space and more amenities in the unit.

The larger point is that the increased size/amenities of these units gives MVC some flexibility in how they assign points such that they don't have to as closely match similar resorts in similar geographies (on mainland US) with existing DC resorts. That in turn could minimize the delta (a bit) in what a Westin Kierland villas owner gets offered compared to a Westin Kaanapali owner compared to the current delta in DC points for resorts in these same geographic areas.
I don't think they'll use sq ft or sleeping capacity (6 vs 8) as part of the equation but rather desirability of the area and season compared to general unit size.

Sheraton/Westin Flex required owners to give up their deeds (and their mandatory status) in order to participate. As a result, Flex has experienced dismal adoption and resale values for Flex plummeted; that's why eliminating mandatory would be a deal breaker.



Although MVC is profit-driven, it doesn't seem that coercion and alienating owners of desirable properties to add to their portfolio would be prudent or in their MO. Especially for something as mundane as points program participation.

Can you provide more specifics on what issues led to the ultimatums with Aruba Ocean Club et al? Did it have to do with points enrollment? Or were there more severe issues involved?
I don't think they care about resale prices. I'm sure they'll strike a balance but I'm also sure that some will feel this way after what ever is announced.

The price for converting all of our weeks to DC will be outrageous. We just own resale weeks. I don't even want to hear the price they want for that. I remember that $1.5 million the salesman talked about a few years ago, just to convert my weeks to SO's. That was just a nasty offer.

My concern is getting resorts up to the same quality as Marriott. I think Marriott will consider SBP as a sub-standard resort, especially after I saw the remodel of the units at Cypress Harbour. No way does SBP compete with the Marriott remodels. I think the exterior hallways need some work at SBP, too. They aren't clean and shiny like Cypress Harbour. The unit itself was nice, pretty comfortable.
You can do up to 7 weeks (maybe 8 with a waiver) for $48K-$60K based on this years program. Even if some of the resorts don't make sense to take points, getting them all enrolled gives you options an reduces some of the other fees potentially. I'm sure some know more than I on the ultimatums and separation. As I understand it MVC & the HOA for Beachplace went toe to toe with a compromise but a letter sent by MVC threatening separation. For AOC there was a battle with the board and MVC about room repairs. I know separation was threatened but not sure how far it got.
 

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I think if you'll read the POS critically you'll see there are options that would allow a lot of changes. They could pick and chose what to spin off if they wanted or even sell of entire segments.

I read they can make many changes. Essentially the POS means nothing when they put a line in that anything in the POS can be changed for any reason basically. I wasn’t questioning if they can do the spin off. I was questioning in what capacity? Where would it go? For what reason? Say Sheraton Vistana villages has XX amount of owners, why would they want to get rid of XX amount of owners that they have the potential to sell to each year?

If i owned at a resort that Marriott sold because they didn’t want to deal with a mandatory deed, I would never spend a dime with Marriott again. Last thing I would do is buy points from them. As far as Orlando is concerned. There are only two phases in Vistana villages that are mandatory and all of Sheraton resorts is voluntary. So they actually have a lot of owners to sell DC too, that own voluntary deeds. But geez, now you have me thinking they are going to sell Vistana villages haha thanks a lot lol
 
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