Lets look at an actual exchange weeks vs points

[JeffV]

So is it your contention that all oversupply in Weeks goes to owner/exchangers while only in Points the oversupply is rented out? How did you reach that wonderful conclusion?

Which system is really better for timeshare owner/exchangers? In Weeks, an oversupply situation puts those weeks in the hands of timeshare owner/exchangers who support their HOAs with m/f's and support RCI with annual dues. In Points, they end up in the hands of non-member renters who do neither.

 

[Carolinian]

Read the rest of the post Jeff.

In Weeks, trading power adjusts for supply and demand, and in oversupply situations, the trading power needed adjusts downward, allowing members with less trading power to get the weeks as trades.

In Points, where the calcified numbers cannot adjust for supply and demand, the inventory just sits there. It becomes ''excess'' for RCI to rent out to non-members.

Why do you think RCI is pushing their points numbers racket so hard? It gives them more to rent out! That does not benefit timesharers.

So is it your contention that all oversupply in Weeks goes to owner/exchangers while only in Points the oversupply is rented out? How did you reach that wonderful conclusion?

 

[BocaBum99]

I was able to trade my 1 bd, week 40 Riviera Beach (in SoCal) for a 2 bd, week 40, Marriott Newport Beach ( 15 miles down the road). How is any trade like that possible in RCI points? It isn't.

Yes, RCI points does have their good points, but when I get that kind of up-grade, I'm a weeks fan!

I totally agree that the reason to be in weeks is the trade ups. That's why I am a weeks owner and advocate. If something is available in weeks as a huge trade up, I'd do it first. The problem is that in order to get those trade ups, I need to plan too far in advance, I can't go on weekends and availability is pot luck. I don't get to choose the location or the room view. So, I supplement my timeshare portfolio with point resorts to give me those benefits that weeks don't.

 

[BocaBum99]

Read the rest of the post Jeff.

In Weeks, trading power adjusts for supply and demand, and in oversupply situations, the trading power needed adjusts downward, allowing members with less trading power to get the weeks as trades.

In Points, where the calcified numbers cannot adjust for supply and demand, the inventory just sits there. It becomes ''excess'' for RCI to rent out to non-members.

Why do you think RCI is pushing their points numbers racket so hard? It gives them more to rent out! That does not benefit timesharers.

This is just spin for what is really going on. That is TRADE UPs. That is what weeks exchange is all about. And, it's what you are really trying to protect.

Every time there is a trade up, someone else trades down. Every time there is a bonus week or unexchanged week, someone got nothing for their deposit. It is a ZERO SUM GAME. The people who benefit from points the most are those people who traditional traded down or got nothing for their deposits.

So, many weeks owners who were used to trade ups in the past are concerned that those trade ups are going away slowly, but surely. Here's some news for you. Those were starting to go away already before RCI Points was created. RCI Points turned the table and they are now giving something to people who used to get nothing. There are giving bonus weeks in proportion to how much of a trade down an owner is willing to take. All this is happening at the expense of those who were used to an abundance of trade ups.

Even if RCI Points was perfectly executed, staunch weeks proponents will be against it. That's because, in their heart, they know that it levels the playing field and limits their opportunities for trade ups.

 

[Carolinian]

Points cannot be perfectly executed because it takes supply and demand, which are dynamic not static, out of the equation. That is what makes it a fundamentally flawed system.

When the market says a trade is equal, it IS equal. Where the zero sum game comes in is with a system that shovels inventory out to non-members and leaves less there for members. The calcified numbers of Points that cannot adjust for supply and demand to reduce prices to compensate for oversupply coupled with the RCI rentals does this.

If you want to see real trade ups, look at Points not Weeks. The corrupt numbers of Points insitutionalizes trades up, that would never happen in Weeks. I have cited some examples on these boards in the past.

Overpointing of overbuilt areas is one of the areas where Points allows systematic trades up. Why do you think so many of the strong Points advocates on these boards just happen to own in overbuilt areas? They are trying to defend their institutionalized trades up. They do not benefit from a system based on supply and demand because they own in areas with an oversupply.

This is just spin for what is really going on. That is TRADE UPs. That is what weeks exchange is all about. And, it's what you are really trying to protect.

Every time there is a trade up, someone else trades down. Every time there is a bonus week or unexchanged week, someone got nothing for their deposit. It is a ZERO SUM GAME. The people who benefit from points the most are those people who traditional traded down or got nothing for their deposits.

So, many weeks owners who were used to trade ups in the past are concerned that those trade ups are going away slowly, but surely. Here's some news for you. Those were starting to go away already before RCI Points was created. RCI Points turned the table and they are now giving something to people who used to get nothing. There are giving bonus weeks in proportion to how much of a trade down an owner is willing to take. All this is happening at the expense of those who were used to an abundance of trade ups.

Even if RCI Points was perfectly executed, staunch weeks proponents will be against it. That's because, in their heart, they know that it levels the playing field and limits their opportunities for trade ups.

 

[Dani]

The overpointed weeks are not the prime weeks however. They are more marginal weeks as to season, location, or both.

And that Carolinian, is exactly my point. What do you think happens to those marginal, over-pointed weeks once they are converted to Points in PFD? That's why I say that there is indeed a raiding going on...but it's not in Weeks. That is also why I said two pages ago...place your weak traders in Points.

 

[BocaBum99]

Points cannot be perfectly executed because it takes supply and demand, which are dynamic not static, out of the equation. That is what makes it a fundamentally flawed system.

When the market says a trade is equal, it IS equal. Where the zero sum game comes in is with a system that shovels inventory out to non-members and leaves less there for members. The calcified numbers of Points that cannot adjust for supply and demand to reduce prices to compensate for oversupply coupled with the RCI rentals does this.

If you want to see real trade ups, look at Points not Weeks. The corrupt numbers of Points insitutionalizes trades up, that would never happen in Weeks. I have cited some examples on these boards in the past.

Overpointing of overbuilt areas is one of the areas where Points allows systematic trades up. Why do you think so many of the strong Points advocates on these boards just happen to own in overbuilt areas? They are trying to defend their institutionalized trades up. They do not benefit from a system based on supply and demand because they own in areas with an oversupply.

This is an unfair comparison. You compare points against perfection and you compare weeks against what exists. That's false logic. RCI weeks NEVER was perfect and never will be. Any system that provides differential value is closer to being market based than one that isn't like RCI weeks.

The current weeks system is NOT market based. Yes, there is a dynamic element to it, but it doesn't make it market based. A roulette wheel is dynamic. The number that it lands on changes with every spin. Weeks trading is a roulette wheel with hidden trading power formulas and wildly gyrating values.

If weeks exchange were truly market based such as what you allege, then there would never be a situation like what happened in South Africa this year on Black Sunday. Using your logic, Black Sunday should have never occurred if trading power formulas were truly "market based." But, it did happen and the same broad averaging that you allege for points was exposed.

So indeed, weeks and points both have trading power values that have been programmed and fixed into their system. The only difference is that in Points you can see the values. In weeks, you can't. And, with points, if you have more trading power than you need, you get some back for use elsewhere.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

... Overpointing of overbuilt areas is one of the areas where Points allows systematic trades up. Why do you think so many of the strong Points advocates on these boards just happen to own in overbuilt areas? They are trying to defend their institutionalized trades up. They do not benefit from a system based on supply and demand because they own in areas with an oversupply.

…

If you want to see real trade ups, look at Points not Weeks. The corrupt numbers of Points insitutionalizes trades up, that would never happen in Weeks. I have cited some examples on these boards in the past.…

Now you're confusing me again, Steve.

In the past you have defended the critical importance of weeks trading because it allows the owner of low value off-season blue weeks in overbuilt areas to trade up to a more valuable unit if they know how to play the game. I also recall you citing specific examples of resorts where the ability of owners to "trade up" their blue weeks in weeks was vital to the financial health of the resort. I also recall many statements by you that Points would undermine the viability of the entire timeshare world by removing the ability to trade up lesser weeks that is embedded into the Weeks system.

So, on one hand you maintain that institutionalized trades up in Weeks for resort owners in overbuilt areas are vital to the the future of timesharing. On the other hand, you propound that institutionalized trades up in Points for resort owners in overbuilt areas is a pernicous manipulation of the timesharing system.

Help me out, here, Steve. For the life of me, I can't figure out if you believe that institutionalized trading up is good or bad.

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

And that Carolinian, is exactly my point. What do you think happens to those marginal, over-pointed weeks once they are converted to Points in PFD? That's why I say that there is indeed a raiding going on...but it's not in Weeks. That is also why I said two pages ago...place your weak traders in Points.

"Ahhhh, Dani", Trog says as the light bulb illuminates over his head.

If a resort in one of those overbuilt, overpointed areas is having problems with blue week owners bailing, what that resort should do is institute a cheap points conversion program. I understand that conversion can be done for only a few hundred dollars if the resort charges only the cost of the paperwork without adding a huge middleman markup).

The blue week owners then deposit those overpointed weeks into the Points system, thereby converting those poor value blue weeks into decent valued weeks from the Points inventory. Savvy resorts with lots of blue weeks currently train their owners on the tricks of trading up in Weeks system; those resorts then would simply train the owners on trading up in the Points system. And it would be easier to explain because the resort could show exactly how it would work in points - how many points the owner would get for depositing their blue week, and what types of weeks they could obtain with that blue week.

Contrary then to what we have been led to believe, Points could be the salvation for resorts with bailing blue week owners, not the death knell.

 

[BocaBum99]

"Ahhhh, Dani", Trog says as the light bulb illuminates over his head.

If a resort in one of those overbuilt, overpointed areas is having problems with blue week owners bailing, what that resort should do is institute a cheap points conversion program. I understand that conversion can be done for only a few hundred dollars if the resort charges only the cost of the paperwork without adding a huge middleman markup).

The blue week owners then deposit those overpointed weeks into the Points system, thereby converting those poor value blue weeks into decent valued weeks from the Points inventory. Savvy resorts with lots of blue weeks currently train their owners on the tricks of trading up in Weeks system; those resorts then would simply train the owners on trading up in the Points system. And it would be easier to explain because the resort could show exactly how it would work in points - how many points the owner would get for depositing their blue week, and what types of weeks they could obtain with that blue week.

Contrary then to what we have been led to believe, Points could be the salvation for resorts with bailing blue week owners, not the death knell.

Indeed, smart resorts are doing just that. Take Rayburn in Texas as an example. Their blue weeks make great entry level RCI Points packages that gets weeks owners into the game for PFD.

I think Bruce CZ owns there. And, he is the single biggest pillager of airline tickets in all of timesharing. And, he does it with weeks that he selectively converts to points. When you see prime weeks being rented, you can thank CZ. It's probably just RCI trying to cover the cost of all of his airline tickets.

 

[Carolinian]

It is a raiding by POINTS members, not Weeks members. Weeks members cannot do PFD.

And that Carolinian, is exactly my point. What do you think happens to those marginal, over-pointed weeks once they are converted to Points in PFD? That's why I say that there is indeed a raiding going on...but it's not in Weeks. That is also why I said two pages ago...place your weak traders in Points.

 

[Carolinian]

When you see prime weeks being rented, you can also think of the info from several RCI insiders about the prime weeks deposited for exchange that were deposited directly into the rental pool and had nothing to do with PFD, cruises, etc.

Indeed, smart resorts are doing just that. Take Rayburn in Texas as an example. Their blue weeks make great entry level RCI Points packages that gets weeks owners into the game for PFD.

I think Bruce CZ owns there. And, he is the single biggest pillager of airline tickets in all of timesharing. And, he does it with weeks that he selectively converts to points. When you see prime weeks being rented, you can thank CZ. It's probably just RCI trying to cover the cost of all of his airline tickets.

 

[Carolinian]

As long as there is a hybrid system, that could work for a limited number of resorts. If RCI elminates Weeks, eliminates PFD (I wish!) or if too many resorts did it, then it wouldn't work.

Also many of the overbuilt areas have weeks that are ''phony red'' rather than blue.

"Ahhhh, Dani", Trog says as the light bulb illuminates over his head.

If a resort in one of those overbuilt, overpointed areas is having problems with blue week owners bailing, what that resort should do is institute a cheap points conversion program. I understand that conversion can be done for only a few hundred dollars if the resort charges only the cost of the paperwork without adding a huge middleman markup).

The blue week owners then deposit those overpointed weeks into the Points system, thereby converting those poor value blue weeks into decent valued weeks from the Points inventory. Savvy resorts with lots of blue weeks currently train their owners on the tricks of trading up in Weeks system; those resorts then would simply train the owners on trading up in the Points system. And it would be easier to explain because the resort could show exactly how it would work in points - how many points the owner would get for depositing their blue week, and what types of weeks they could obtain with that blue week.

Contrary then to what we have been led to believe, Points could be the salvation for resorts with bailing blue week owners, not the death knell.

 

[Carolinian]

First, in many of the overpointed areas, the off season weeks are ''phony red'' rather than blue.

I have always defended trades up within a reasonable range, not excessive trades up. Since GPN first came out, I have spoken of trading within a reasonable range, not carte blanche trades up.

I have also pointed out that the market may well value particular inventory more or less than some timesharers would. That is NOT trading up. That is the market setting values.

I have always pointed out that the 45 window is critical to the financial health of resorts with off season weeks (whether called blue or red), and that is really even trades since it is common in the leisure travel industry to discount last minute inventory. Also, since a late deposit has lower trading power, it stands to reason that a late withdrawal should, too. Some points people want to call the 45 day window ''trading up''. It isn't. That seems to be your confusion as well.

Now you're confusing me again, Steve.

In the past you have defended the critical importance of weeks trading because it allows the owner of low value off-season blue weeks in overbuilt areas to trade up to a more valuable unit if they know how to play the game. I also recall you citing specific examples of resorts where the ability of owners to "trade up" their blue weeks in weeks was vital to the financial health of the resort. I also recall many statements by you that Points would undermine the viability of the entire timeshare world by removing the ability to trade up lesser weeks that is embedded into the Weeks system.

So, on one hand you maintain that institutionalized trades up in Weeks for resort owners in overbuilt areas are vital to the the future of timesharing. On the other hand, you propound that institutionalized trades up in Points for resort owners in overbuilt areas is a pernicous manipulation of the timesharing system.

Help me out, here, Steve. For the life of me, I can't figure out if you believe that institutionalized trading up is good or bad.

 

[grupp]

Savvy resorts with lots of blue weeks currently train their owners on the tricks of trading up in Weeks system; those resorts then would simply train the owners on trading up in the Points system. And it would be easier to explain because the resort could show exactly how it would work in points - how many points the owner would get for depositing their blue week, and what types of weeks they could obtain with that blue week.

Contrary then to what we have been led to believe, Points could be the salvation for resorts with bailing blue week owners, not the death knell.

So you would have to convince all the people who were sold the worthless blue weeks with the promise they could trade the week for anyplace in the world, that it is now good to convert their week to points so they can use the points to go on a nice vacation every 2 or 3 years. Well, I guess that is better than no vacations.

Gary

 

[short]

Exchanging like tax law.

Points cannot be perfectly executed because it takes supply and demand, which are dynamic not static, out of the equation. That is what makes it a fundamentally flawed system.

Carolinian,

Points would be a fundamentally flawed system whether it is dynamic or static. If point went to dynamic someone would be on these boards complaining that it wasn't fair or the system was broken.

You know the saying "You cannot please all of the people all of the time."

If Weeks were fundamentally fair then popular weeks like Manhatten Club or bulk space bank weeks in Hawaii would last for months.

Exchanging is just like income tax law. It is neither fair or unfair, its just a way of collecting taxes. A redistribution of wealth.

Short

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

So you would have to convince all the people who were sold the worthless blue weeks with the promise they could trade the week for anyplace in the world, that it is now good to convert their week to points so they can use the points to go on a nice vacation every 2 or 3 years. Well, I guess that is better than no vacations.

Gary

The problem that has been posted before by Carolinian is that many resorts are not financially viable of off-season week owners bail. To ensure viability it is vital that those blue week owners be able to trade up.

As we all know, the "trade your blue week for anyplace in the world" pitch is a lie. It is more reasonable to try to trade up modestly, though.

Doing so in weeks is a hit and miss prospect, and often relies on doing last minute trading.

If Carolinian is correct, though, that the Points system assigns improperly high values to many of these off season weeks, then the value of those blue weeks increases. Owners of those weeks can convert to Points, and take advantage of the alleged overvaluing of their weeks. Plus, in the points system they can collateralize that value ten weeks out (if they want to make trades) or even further out if they want to collateralize that value into items such airline tickets.

Plus, if I'm a resort operator trying to keep my blue weeks owners in the fold, it's a lot easier for me to demonstrate the value of staying with the resort if I use Points instead of Weeks. With points I can sit down and show them specifically how it would work, what trades they will be able to make, not what they might be able to do, if they wait until 60 days before check-in.

Lots of those people aren't getting anything from their blue weeks now, are trying to walk away from their resort, and have stopped paying annual fees. If the week is overvalued in Points, that may be a way for those people to be able to get value from their ownership that they are not getting now - and that they wouldn't get in weeks.

 

[Carolinian]

I have pointed out that having access to last minute trades in the 45-day window, which is what MOST t/s salesmen pitch, not a general trade up, is vital to offseason weeks (whether blue in many areas or ''red'' in some of the overbuilt areas) value for exchagne owners at those resorts. Some points advocates seem to want to incorrectly call 45 day window trades a ''rtrade up'' or otherwise to draw other conclusions from that position. In doing so, they misrepresent my position.

The over pointed weeks are not generally the offseason weeks in areas with blue time. They may be off season weeks in overbuilt areas that designate everything red. Pink weeks are, in fact, overall, the most likely to be overpointed. Also resorts in developer sales are more likely to be overpointed due to RCI Points pandering to develpers in sales.

The frills like airline tickets also distort the exchange system, one reason that I have opposed that aspect of the Points program since it was first rolled out as ''GPN''. The health of the core exchange system should not be sacraficed for such unnecessary frills. I have called it ''polluting the exchange system'' since RCI Points was called GPN.

SItting down with a points table would show anybody that the points system is useless for some weeks except for crossover trades into the Weeks 45 day inventory for 9000 points. That is now the big pitch at Points resorts to sell offseason weeks. Without that, a blue week would probably be almost unsellable in points. The way RCI is downgrading the 45 day window, all resorts should be looking to other markets than exchange owners for off season weeks. The problem is that some areas don't have such markets. Fortunately my home resorts are in areas that do.

The problem that has been posted before by Carolinian is that many resorts are not financially viable of off-season week owners bail. To ensure viability it is vital that those blue week owners be able to trade up.

As we all know, the "trade your blue week for anyplace in the world" pitch is a lie. It is more reasonable to try to trade up modestly, though.

Doing so in weeks is a hit and miss prospect, and often relies on doing last minute trading.

If Carolinian is correct, though, that the Points system assigns improperly high values to many of these off season weeks, then the value of those blue weeks increases. Owners of those weeks can convert to Points, and take advantage of the alleged overvaluing of their weeks. Plus, in the points system they can collateralize that value ten weeks out (if they want to make trades) or even further out if they want to collateralize that value into items such airline tickets.

Plus, if I'm a resort operator trying to keep my blue weeks owners in the fold, it's a lot easier for me to demonstrate the value of staying with the resort if I use Points instead of Weeks. With points I can sit down and show them specifically how it would work, what trades they will be able to make, not what they might be able to do, if they wait until 60 days before check-in.

Lots of those people aren't getting anything from their blue weeks now, are trying to walk away from their resort, and have stopped paying annual fees. If the week is overvalued in Points, that may be a way for those people to be able to get value from their ownership that they are not getting now - and that they wouldn't get in weeks.

 

[grupp]

What happens to the Blue weeks?

Steve
I don't disagree with you that points may be an option for the blue weeks. But this really only an advantage at resorts with relatively low fees, such as Rayburn.

Also, all the points discussions centers on one side of the equation. But what happens to the blue weeks that are deposited for points that no one wants at any price? It has been argued previously in this thread that it is a zero sum game. So if, I were to deposit my 2 blue weeks for enough points get a red week and, no one wants my blue weeks, there must be loser somewhere.

Gary

 

[T_R_Oglodyte]

Steve
I don't disagree with you that points may be an option for the blue weeks. But this really only an advantage at resorts with relatively low fees, such as Rayburn.

Also, all the points discussions centers on one side of the equation. But what happens to the blue weeks that are deposited for points that no one wants at any price? It has been argued previously in this thread that it is a zero sum game. So if, I were to deposit my 2 blue weeks for enough points get a red week and, no one wants my blue weeks, there must be loser somewhere.

Gary

So, in other words, the issue that Carolinian has been thumping about (the unrealistic Point values assigned to weeks) is self-correcting. Because if RCI doesn't bring the values in line, RCI is going to get stuck with a bunch of inventory they can't move. Right?

 

[grupp]

Are some blue weeks worth zero points?

So, in other words, the issue that Carolinian has been thumping about (the unrealistic Point values assigned to weeks) is self-correcting. Because if RCI doesn't bring the values in line, RCI is going to get stuck with a bunch of inventory they can't move. Right?

I don't know, which is why I asked the question. Ideally, what you propose seems like it would be the answer, but is that really is what happens? Although, if that is the case, as the point values decreased wouldn't some blue weeks become just as worthless in the points system as they are in weeks?

Gary

 

[BocaBum99]

I don't know, which is why I asked the question. Ideally, what you propose seems like it would be the answer, but is that really is what happens? Although, if that is the case, as the point values decreased wouldn't some blue weeks become just as worthless in the points system as they are in weeks?

Gary

In a market based system, a blue week will be worth exactly what its worth....next to nothing.

 

[Dani]

It is a raiding by POINTS members, not Weeks members. Weeks members cannot do PFD.

Using that logic, does that mean that since I am a Weeks member who also happens to be a Points member that it is okay for me to raid Weeks with my Points? You are speaking in semantics. The result is the same. People are being allowed to use weeks that are currently in the Weeks systems to raid points.

 

[Dani]

"Ahhhh, Dani", Trog says as the light bulb illuminates over his head.

If a resort in one of those overbuilt, overpointed areas is having problems with blue week owners bailing, what that resort should do is institute a cheap points conversion program. I understand that conversion can be done for only a few hundred dollars if the resort charges only the cost of the paperwork without adding a huge middleman markup).

The blue week owners then deposit those overpointed weeks into the Points system, thereby converting those poor value blue weeks into decent valued weeks from the Points inventory. Savvy resorts with lots of blue weeks currently train their owners on the tricks of trading up in Weeks system; those resorts then would simply train the owners on trading up in the Points system. And it would be easier to explain because the resort could show exactly how it would work in points - how many points the owner would get for depositing their blue week, and what types of weeks they could obtain with that blue week.

Contrary then to what we have been led to believe, Points could be the salvation for resorts with bailing blue week owners, not the death knell.

That does not sound like a bad idea. It would seem that in many cases, it would be more beneficial to deposit a blue or even a fringe red week in Points providing the conversion costs were cheap enough.

 

[Carolinian]

So, in other words, the issue that Carolinian has been thumping about (the unrealistic Point values assigned to weeks) is self-correcting. Because if RCI doesn't bring the values in line, RCI is going to get stuck with a bunch of inventory they can't move. Right?

The idea that there are many people out there who would pay two or more m/f's to trade for one week somewhere else is misplaced. Even the Points t/s salesmen don't push that line. They seem to know that dog won't hunt!

The whole rigid Points system is designed to create an artifical ''excess'' for RCI to rent out.