Lowballers

[Ridewithme38]

People could be forcing timeshares to:
1. take back units
2. dissolve the timeshare and sell the units for housing (we found out this is happening in Myrtle Beach, people own units at the timeshare and LIVE there year round)

WHO do you think will absorb your financial mistake if we "force," timeshares to take back your unwanted timeshare?

The developer? - NO! Long gone...
The sales person? - NO! Long gone...
The management company - NO! They don't OWN the resort...

If the resorts is "forced" to take back your timeshare OTHER OWNERS HAVE TO FOOT THE BILL. Timeshare resorts belong to the owners - and when one owner flakes out - everyone else has to pay a higher MF to cover your MF.

DeniseM, i believe the plan is, if the resorts are Forced to take back weeks, within months the resorts that SHOULD HAVE CLOSED YEARS AGO, will now be forced to desolve...The resorts that are strong will remain that way and even get stronger as resorts close the demand for those, high demand resorts will get higher and we can return to how Timesharing began

 

[Beefnot]

I think any offer is a good offer. Doesn't mean it needs to be accepted, but I see no point in being offended. Sorry you're all twisted up about it, Phyx.

Where I draw the line is where an ad says "firm", in which case, I would make no offer, I would simply want or not want that deal at those terms. If I were the lister, I'd ignore offers since they aren't being accepted. easy.

if it's "negotiable", "OBO", etc., then the listing is requesting offers. what's to be offended?

There have been some great points brought up in this thread, but for me, "market value" is what I would pay in relation to the geeketteconomical index. has nothing to do with brand name, location, what you paid, what Hal is offering, what the bid is up to on ebay, mfs, etc., it's what it's worth To Me. That does consider what else I gotta figure in to get there last minute.

If we do not agree on that value, then, there is no deal. And hopefully no hurt feelings, either. it's just business.

no, I was not the unnamed lowballer.

I would always prefer to, if at all possible, pay less than what it is worth to me, which is why I may choose to lowball. Sure, if push comes to shove I will pay what it is worth to me, but I lovelovelovelove saving money. If the lowballer is polite and the seller either is polite or does not respond, then it should be all good, cumbaya.

 

[ace2000]

no, I was not the unnamed lowballer.

Wasn't me... will the real unnamed lowballer please fess up??? C'mon, just think, you have a dedicated thread just about you.

 

[AwayWeGo]

Timeshare Resorts Can't Take Back What They Never Owned In The 1st Place.

i believe the plan is, if the resorts are Forced to take back weeks, within months the resorts that SHOULD HAVE CLOSED YEARS AGO, will now be forced to desolve.

Make timeshare resorts take back deeds ?

Back ?

Impossible.

They can't take'm back because they -- the timeshare resorts -- never owned'm in the 1st place.

When you buy a timeshare deed from a timeshare company, you are not buying it from the timeshare resort. Likewise, when you buy a resale timeshare deed from a prior owner, you obviously are not buying it from the timeshare resort.

Timeshare deeds do not come from timeshare resorts & so therefore it is a physical impossibility for the resorts to take the deeds back -- even if that were a good idea, which is highly doubtful to say the least.

If a timeshare resort is forced to take over a deed that the individual owner no longer wants, it will be the 1st time that the resort has owned that deed.

All the resort does is collect the fees, operate the physical facilities, perform regular upkeep, & carry out periodic renovations. It may rent out units that belong to delinquent owners (to offset unpaid fees), & it may take aggressive action up to & including foreclosure against deadbeat owners. It is not in the business of acquiring & then selling timeshare deeds.

If you're talking about making timeshare companies take back unwanted deeds, that's a completely different concept which may or may not be worth exploring, including the question of whether there is or is not any authority under law to establish such a requirement.

In any case, it is not up to timeshare resorts to bail out individual owners who (a) get tired of owning or (b) have financial problems or (c) both.

Good luck sticking the timeshare companies with that obligation.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[bdh]

Make timeshare resorts take deeds Back ?

Impossible.



Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.

When you have a "mature" resort (ie: no active developer sales) and the HOA is controlled by the TS owners, is it not the resort that gets the deed back via the foreclosure process when MF aren't paid?

If a property is not sold out and/or controlled by the developer, then the developer gets the deed back via the foreclosure process when mortgage payments and MF aren't paid.

In Rides world, the terms "TS resort" and "TS company" are interchangeable as it doesn't really matter who gets the deed once its taken back/foreclosed as the weight of carrying the units will collaspe an unhealthy property.

 

[AwayWeGo]

That's The Problem Right There.

In Rides world, the terms "TS resort" and "TS company" are interchangeable as it doesn't really matter who gets the deed once its taken back/foreclosed as the weight of carrying the units will collaspe an unhealthy property.

Yeh -- but in the real timeshare world it does matter, lots.

By me, the distinction between timeshare companies on the 1 hand & timeshare resorts on the other hand is grossly underappreciated & too often misunderstood or not understood at all.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​

 

[ampaholic]

When you have a "mature" resort (ie: no active developer sales) and the HOA is controlled by the TS owners, is it not the resort that gets the deed back via the foreclosure process when MF aren't paid?

If a property is not sold out and/or controlled by the developer, then the developer gets the deed back via the foreclosure process when mortgage payments and MF aren't paid.

In Rides world, the terms "TS resort" and "TS company" are interchangeable as it doesn't really matter who gets the deed once its taken back/foreclosed as the weight of carrying the units will collaspe an unhealthy property.

I think this forum is an unlikely place for a course on Real Estate Law. Generally speaking a foreclosure is a court order assigning a lien, voiding a deed and reassigning certain rights to the lien holders. One of those rights is usually the right to then assign their interest to a third party (sell).

Most HOA's are smart enough to use a third party to "sell" the interests acquired from lien foreclosure - so they would not "carry" units.

What makes a resort "unhealthy" is way beyond some deed backs and foreclosures and even carrying some intervals on the books.

 

[timeos2]

When you have a "mature" resort (ie: no active developer sales) and the HOA is controlled by the TS owners, is it not the resort that gets the deed back via the foreclosure process when MF aren't paid?

If a property is not sold out and/or controlled by the developer, then the developer gets the deed back via the foreclosure process when mortgage payments and MF aren't paid.

In Rides world, the terms "TS resort" and "TS company" are interchangeable as it doesn't really matter who gets the deed once its taken back/foreclosed as the weight of carrying the units will collaspe an unhealthy property.

Even that is incorrect. IF there is a mortgage then the develoweper/ Timeshare company can forrclose & will get the ownership back. But then THEY owe the fees (although a reduced amount due to the foreclosure) & the Association can foreclose on them for nonpayment.

The problem is that the ownership is considered the valued asset & foreclosing a non-desireable thing for the owner. If the "asset" is considered worthless then, except for the megative credit hit, the "loss" of the ownership isn't the big negative the law thought it would be. The purchase money is lost either way in foreclosure or a zero resale value. The removal of the fee obligation can be viewed as a positive in some cases. Not at all the plan originally .

 

[bdh]

Going for the trifecta - and somehow this got a long way away from the OP's lowballer

Yeh -- but in the real timeshare world it does matter, lots.

By me, the distinction between timeshare companies on the 1 hand & timeshare resorts on the other hand is grossly underappreciated & too often misunderstood or not understood at all.

While I understand your personal beliefs, I'm not seeing how that affects the outcome of an unhealthy TS resort or company from going under if they are carrying the full freight of MF's on units they own via Rides world.

Generally speaking a foreclosure is a court order assigning a lien, voiding a deed and reassigning certain rights to the lien holders. One of those rights is usually the right to then assign their interest to a third party (sell). Most HOA's are smart enough to use a third party to "sell" the interests acquired from lien foreclosure - so they would not "carry" units.

Those are some pretty smart HOA's! IE: they can sell the interests of a TS that can't be sold for a buck by a private individual. In a simplistic world, if they can "sell" those rights that easily, that would seem to support the concept of them acquiring rights/deeds/units from private individuals who want out.

Even that is incorrect. IF there is a mortgage then the develoweper/ Timeshare company can forrclose & will get the ownership back. But then THEY owe the fees (although a reduced amount due to the foreclosure) & the Association can foreclose on them for nonpayment.

The problem is that the ownership is considered the valued asset & foreclosing a non-desireable thing for the owner. If the "asset" is considered worthless then, except for the megative credit hit, the "loss" of the ownership isn't the big negative the law thought it would be. The purchase money is lost either way in foreclosure or a zero resale value. The removal of the fee obligation can be viewed as a positive in some cases. Not at all the plan originally .

Or in layman's terms, the TS resort and/or company don't want the worthless weeks that private individuals don't want either. The reality is that when private individuals who can't sell their week to someone else and don't fulfill their obligations, the ownership eventually reverts back to the TS resort and/or company - once it reaches the tipping point, you get the collapse that should have happened a long time ago.

As noted here on TUG, MF's are perpetual - and when those aren't paid by the owners (whether that's a private individual, TS resort, TS company or a 3rd party interest), the unheathy house collapses.

 

[brucecz]

as someone who rents every year from TUGGERS personally, i can also say the opposite is true as well.

whenever I post up wish ads for trips, I get some INSANE offers (high)

5000 for a week in the keys? pass =)


That said, I always end up with some fantastic deals (especially to vegas)...to each his own.

Brian, I find your posting interesting as Keys owner and Tug advertiser of our other resoerts Some get mad if we do not cave into their lowball demands. IMHO in many cases the lower the offer the madder they get if you do not cave into to them.

IMHO he true market rental price is not the lowest offer but the lowest offer the owner is willing to rent and the highest a renter is willing to pay.

I explain in our Keys ads our MF's are $831.16 for our floating weeks 2 or 3 bedroom sleep 8 unit ownerships and we are allowed one cancellation a year per ownership if the cancellation made 30 or more days before check in date. So they know in most cases we are not having to accept a lowball offer unlike a owner might have to with a fixed week with very little time left before the check in date.

We plan and reserve Prime holiday weeks that if we can not rent for at least our MF's then we may use them ourselves for give them to our relatives.

Interesting that RCI will rent those same weeks for a 1 bedroom for 2 to 3 times more than most reasonable owners ask in the Keys.

I did not buy our timeshares to subsidize those who want a prime week may below our MF's that crying that they are having hard times. Maybe those are part of the 48% that pay no federal taxes and think we should also subsidize their vacations.

I had one person make a super low ball offer for the Dells for a early summer week because she said they were coming up from Chicago to have their groups hair done in the Dells and the cost of having their hair done was expensive. I suggested she and her 4 fiends reserve a $40 per night motel for one night

I now mostly reply by email that I wish them good luck and I hope they can find what they want at the price they want but I can not afford to meet the price they want at that time.

But we all want bargains.

I learned in my first year that cash is king so the first one to make the payment ( normally by Paypal ) gets the reservation so my ads state were there enough room that IMPORTANT PLEASE NOTE, in order to try to be fair to all interested potential interested renters the first prospective tenant to send the landlord payment in full will secure the unit for their use. Other later arriving payments will be returned. The EARLIEST POSTMARK gets our unit if two payments arrive for the same reservation date booked.

I do not allow any cancelations .

Bruce

 

[brucecz]

I disagree, the bargain basement area is for units within a short time frame, units that you are unable to rent anywhere else, these units essentially have Zero value, because if they did, they would have already been rented...At the very least the maximum should be much much lower, close to the motel 6 rate...at most, you guys should be happy taking ANYTHING for them like $1

At the time frame we are talking with the Bargain basement, the size of the room isn't an issue anymore as much as the person trying to rent it getting ANYTHING for it is

Low rentals are a GREAT thing for Tug, they drive people to check out the site and look in other areas, if every rental was over $1000 people wouldn't even bother looking, it would drive customers away and the available customer base would dwindle down to nothing

Please rent me your Wyndham Patriots place, Fixed Week 27 in 2012 for $99.69 for the full week as being a retired senoir I am ENTITLED and DESERVE a senoir discount. That way I can afford to eat at the areas best and fancy eating places.

Thanks in advance for help paying for my vacation. You can deduct your loss on your 2012 taxes.

No thanks needed, I am :rofl: gald to help your lower the amount you will have to pay in taxes.

Bruce

 

[Ridewithme38]

Please rent me your Wyndham Patriots place, Fixed Week 27 in 2012 for $99.69 for the full week as being a retired senoir I am ENTITLED and DESERVE a senoir discount. That way I can afford to eat at the areas best and fancy eating places.

Thanks in advance for help paying for my vacation. You can deduct your loss on your 2012 taxes.

No thanks needed, I am :rofl: gald to help your lower the amount you will have to pay in taxes.

Bruce

I'll look into it, if your offer is the only one i get by the end of June odds are pretty good i'll take you up on that....better to get something then have the room sit empty and not get anything

 

[brucecz]

I'll look into it, if your offer is the only one i get by the end of June odds are pretty good i'll take you up on that....better to get something then have the room sit empty and not get anything

But my offer goes down by $1 per day starting today to help you with your income tax situation even more.

Again, no thanks needed:hysterical: , I am gald to help you :rofl: lower the amount you will have to pay in taxes.

It it OK if we bring our 12 friends and our 2 Great Danes as Kennal fees are high?

Bruce

 

[brucecz]

The first offer does NOT have to be accepted. The counteroffer may not be accepted.

Bargaining is called a meeting of the minds. And yes, I have bargained my rental prices.

But the hard decision is if my inital asking is $700, should I take the $550 offered or ask for the $600? Not if I should take the $300 ==> I will lower my offer offline to my lowest and firmest number, calling it MY bottom and final offer.

I have also given over units to the resort to rent.

On ebay we now only run best offers and on some lowball offers we do not make a counter offer as it could tie it up for 48 hours and miss out on a better offer. We also post that we reserve the right to cancel the listing at any time if we get a acceptable offer from our other non ebay ad sites.

Our off ebay prices are lower than our ebay prices for 2 reasons. The first is a so called can not honor their offer and it takes at least 8 days to clear it to relist it and you can not leave them the buyer bad feed back they EARNED.

If they bid 4 days before the check in date you have lost the week. I had a 30 day for sale listing ebay and it was only on there for 9 hours and someone offered the full amount and then backed out.

My cost was $52.50 for the ad that ebay would not refund. I was spending about $150 to $200 per month on ebay for sales but since that happened I have not listed any for sales on ebay.

Bruce

 

[Pmuppet]

Many timeshare owners just dont get it

Renting timeshares are flat out risky, and as a result, renters need a significant discount over a risk free rental. Why you may ask, all it takes for an owner to screw over someone is a simple call to the resort and change the name on the letterhead that convinced you to paypal them thousand(s) of $$$.

I, for one demand at least a 50% discount for this level of risk. So far so good and i havent been screwed over (rented a timeshare a number of times). I do know that my luck will run out at some point. I figure if i rent four of five timeshares successfully it is worth it financially/stressfully. My spouse has no idea of the risk but that is okay cause my backup/breakeven plan is usually a five star resort, so she will forgive me.

The risk doesnt concern me cause it is a numbers game. I will come out ahead as a result that people ae generally good and the discounts will offset my expected losses.

But dont get mad at me for demanding a significant discount on a risky asset. Losses will come a few times in my life, but i will win at significantly more than i lose at (assuming you minimize your risk by asking knowledgeable questions, trusting your instincts, and never renting from anyone you have red flags or discomfort from).

Lots of rental deals out there so there is no reason to take unnecessary risks.

 

[DeniseM]

Renting timeshares are flat out risky, and as a result, renters need a significant discount over a risk free rental. Why you may ask, all it takes for an owner to screw over someone is a simple call to the resort and change the name on the letterhead that convinced you to paypal them thousand(s) of $$$.

What would an owner's motivation be to "screw over someone," in this manner? An owner would have to be really foolish to try to pull off a scam like this. Why would an owner risk their reputation, risk being charged with a crime, and compromise their standing at their own resort, for a few hundred bucks? It's not like they can just disappear, because they own at the resort, and their ID and any changes they make in the reservation would be documented with the resort.

Owner scams are very rare TS rentals - most scams are the other way around - the renter trying to scam the owner. I can assure you that if this was happening, we'd hear about it on TUG.

If you do your due diligence there is absolutely no reason for this to happen.

 

[Ridewithme38]

What would an owner's motivation be to "screw over someone," in this manner? An owner would have to be really foolish to try to pull off a scam like this. Why would an owner risk their reputation, risk being charged with a crime, and compromise their standing at their own resort, for a few hundred bucks? It's not like they can just disappear, because they own at the resort, and their ID and any changes they make in the reservation would be documented with the resort.

Owner scams are very rare TS rentals - most scams are the other way around - the renter trying to scam the owner. I can assure you that if this was happening, we'd hear about it on TUG.

If you do your due diligence there is absolutely no reason for this to happen.

I agree with DeniseM on this....I don't think owners are out to screw renter, sure it may happen occasionally, but its not something i bank on....BUT, how many times have renters shown up at a resort and been turned away by the resort itself because of something unintentional by the owner? A mistake in a Guest Certificate? A rental that wasn't allowed? The Resort over booking? These are fairly common and part of the rental risk and with most owners having a strict "No Refund" policy....these things in addition to the very very few dishonest owners add up to a pretty risky situation

50% maybe a bit much when just calculating the Risk though, i'd say a 35% discount over 'rack' rate for risk and a like to calculate in my 'need' for the week...For instance, i have a booking coming up for Memorial day weekend, its in a 2br that sleep 8 and i now have 7 people going...My 'NEED' for a second room is Zero, but if i can find a room cheap enough, i'll get it...Because i have no 'Need' for that room i can further deduct from 'rack' rate another 20%...Expedia lists the rooms at the place i'm staying at 'From $202 a night'...so because of this, i can't pay more then $90.90(45% of $202) a night

 

[theo]

My $0.02 worth...

Renting timeshares are flat out risky, and as a result, renters need a significant discount over a risk free rental. Lots of rental deals out there so there is no reason to take unnecessary risks.

Anyone who subscribes to this "rentals are risky" belief can (and probably should) simply avoid any and all of this perceived "risk" by instead renting directly from the resort --- and paying the premium price (plus local taxes, often another 12% or more) for their "truly risk free" rental.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Anyone who subscribes to this "rentals are risky" belief can (and probably should) simply avoid any and all of this perceived "risk" by instead renting directly from the resort --- and paying the premium price (plus local taxes, often another 12% or more) for their "truly risk free" rental.

Don't you think that could apply to the people in the rental business also? "Anyone who subscribes to this "renting is risky" belief can (and probably should) simply avoid any and all of this perceived "risk" by instead using the resort themselves"

a handful of owners have come in here and said they up their rental rates JUST because of the 'risk' it's obvious there is risk on both sides of the equation...it's about raising rates to minimize loss to them and lowering rates to minimize loss to us

In the end, its about finding a happy middle ground...but thats not easy when owners get 'mad' at negotiations

 

[brucecz]

Renting timeshares are flat out risky, and as a result, renters need a significant discount over a risk free rental. Why you may ask, all it takes for an owner to screw over someone is a simple call to the resort and change the name on the letterhead that convinced you to paypal them thousand(s) of $$$.

I, for one demand at least a 50% discount for this level of risk. So far so good and i havent been screwed over (rented a timeshare a number of times). I do know that my luck will run out at some point. I figure if i rent four of five timeshares successfully it is worth it financially/stressfully. My spouse has no idea of the risk but that is okay cause my backup/breakeven plan is usually a five star resort, so she will forgive me.

The risk doesnt concern me cause it is a numbers game. I will come out ahead as a result that people ae generally good and the discounts will offset my expected losses.

But dont get mad at me for demanding a significant discount on a risky asset. Losses will come a few times in my life, but i will win at significantly more than i lose at (assuming you minimize your risk by asking knowledgeable questions, trusting your instincts, and never renting from anyone you have red flags or discomfort from).

Lots of rental deals out there so there is no reason to take unnecessary risks.

I see you have been barely here a week and your saying that long time Tug owners should give you 50% off of the resorts rate IMHO shows your lack of
Timeshare pricing knowledge.

I see you do not list any timeshare ownerships that you own. Do you own any, if so what are they?

Many Tuggers who rent out their ownerships have been around 10 years or more while you have been around about 10 days and for you to demand 50% off because MAYBE a longtime Tuggers can not be trusted is a slap in those Tuggers faces.

I happen to have a 100% rating on both VTR and ebay. What is your rating on ebay?

First, most of our rentals are 50% to 70% less for non Prime weeks than the resorts rack rates and 30% to 50% less for Prime weeks than the resorts rack rates. Use Paypal tied to a credit card to protect your self if you are that scared or nervous.

IMHO the tennats that cause most of the problems are the ones who demand the lowest price but in many cases do not honor their word.

I am unwilling to discount because you MAYBE get screwed in the future. Suggest you read and lean the TUG rental stickies in order not to get screwed.

I would not discount and rent to someone who uses the lame excuse in asking for a discount because someone else in the future because may screw them.

IT appears that you have not read the TUG stickies in regards to renting and how to do your due diligence. Suggest you gain some knowlegde on how to rent as it appears that you flat out do not understand on how to rent..


Bruce F. Czajkowski

 

[brucecz]

Anyone who subscribes to this "rentals are risky" belief can (and probably should) simply avoid any and all of this perceived "risk" by instead renting directly from the resort --- and paying the premium price (plus local taxes, often another 12% or more) for their "truly risk free" rental.

Theo, maybe to remove that rental risk with dealing with private parties they should buy a ownership from a :hysterical: :rofl: resort developer.

Bruce

 

[DeniseM]

I agree with DeniseM on this....I don't think owners are out to screw renter, sure it may happen occasionally, but its not something i bank on....BUT, how many times have renters shown up at a resort and been turned away by the resort itself because of something unintentional by the owner? A mistake in a Guest Certificate? A rental that wasn't allowed? The Resort over booking? These are fairly common and part of the rental risk and with most owners having a strict "No Refund" policy....these things in addition to the very very few dishonest owners add up to a pretty risky situation

Ride - These are not common at check-in. If you have a confirmation from the resort in hand, and you verify it with the resort personally when you receive it, and again right before check-in, it would be EXTREMELY rare for you not to get a room when you checked in.

Think about this - what does a owner have to gain by ripping someone off?
They would endanger their ownership, their reputation, and face criminal charges - The risks FAR outweigh any possible gain!

Sure it's "possible", but the owner would have to be really stupid, because they couldn't get away with it.

 

[Beefnot]

Let's be fair and not assume that because someone has been on TUG for a few days that they must not be seasoned in anything related to timeshares. It is entirely possible for someone to have rented timeshares from individuals for many years without ever having found (or registered with) TUG.

 

[Beefnot]

Anyone who subscribes to this "rentals are risky" belief can (and probably should) simply avoid any and all of this perceived "risk" by instead renting directly from the resort --- and paying the premium price (plus local taxes, often another 12% or more) for their "truly risk free" rental.

Rentals from individual owners are risky, at least from the perception of the renter. We can debate the extent of the risk, perhaps small, but there is some element of risk. Each individual will estimate their own risk discount and offer accordingly. Those with risk discounts that diverge from what the market has decided is reasonable will probably tend to be less successful at securing rentals than their peers under identical circumstances.

 

[Ridewithme38]

Ride - These are not common at check-in. If you have a confirmation from the resort in hand, and you verify it with the resort personally when you receive it, and again right before check-in, it would be EXTREMELY rare for you not to get a room when you checked in.

Think about this - what does a owner have to gain by ripping someone off?
They would endanger their ownership, their reputation, and face criminal charges - The risks FAR outweigh any possible gain!

Sure it's "possible", but the owner would have to be really stupid, because they couldn't get away with it.

I think you missed the "Unintentional by the owner" Part...I read alot of threads on here about mistakes made by the resorts themselves...I AGREE WITH YOU...the odds that you are going to find an Owner who will be intentionally ripping people off are slim to none...BUT if you include the unintentional and the 'no refund policies'...which IS the risk, the odds go up quite a bit....About as high as a renter screwing the owners over...