Marriott Vacations Worldwide (VAC) purchase of Interval Leisure Group (ILG) discussion!

[TravelTime]

I believe there are a few exceptions to that, where MVC is still selling enrollable weeks without the need to purchase points in a hybrid combo. Aruba and Spain come to mind as examples I have seen posted about.

Yes, both Vacation Forever and Fasttr have validated what Marriott told me. They are selling hybrid packages as well as some enrolled weeks that do not require buying more points (From what I recall, I think Aruba, St Kitts and Newport Beach were available resale from Marriott as enrolled weeks at super high prices without the need to buy DC Trust Points.) In these instances, they told me the point value assigned to the enrolled week would count toward the higher membership level, even if I never convert the enrolled week into points. So I am glad I got the correct information from the sales rep. I have not done it and not sure I will since now I want to wait and see what happens with the new program. I am hoping current owners will have new options to enroll our post-2010 weeks from Marriott, Vistana and Hyatt at a reasonable fee.

 

[VacationForever]

I believe there are a few exceptions to that, where MVC is still selling enrollable weeks without the need to purchase points in a hybrid combo. Aruba and Spain come to mind as examples I have seen posted about.

Ah yes, I was only thinking about US resorts.

 

[SueDonJ]

Marriott told me that if I buy an enrolled deeded week from them, they count how many points it is worth in addition to how many actual DC Trust Points I own, and then I would qualify for the member level of the total combination, even if I never convert. For example, let’s say I have 7000 DC points and I own MKO which is worth a little under 5000 points. The combination would be approximately 12,000 points and push me from Executive Level to Presidential Level, even if I never convert MKO to points. I have not actually bought an enrolled deeded week from Marriott so I am wondering if others have been able to achieve a higher membership level in this way?

Any post June 2010 resale week bought through Marriott will not be counted in the status level nor convertible into points. If it is bought in conjunction with points, aka hybrid or combo, then the week can be enrolled and counted.

On the basic question, yes it's true that ownership level/status in the DC is determined by the total number of combined Trust (purchased) and Exchange (value of enrolled Weeks) Points in a Member's account.

It can be possible for an existing Trust Member (owner of purchased DC Points) to purchase an internal resale Week which Resales Operations will allow to be enrolled. There may be some qualifying factors, i.e. the dates of both purchases and/or the amount of Trust Points owned compared to the Exchange Points value of the Week, but effectively they're allowed some leeway from the basic eligibility rules to put together what's called "Hybrid" packages. I'd be more inclined to believe a Resales Operations employee than an onsite Sales Associate when evaluating if such a purchase is the real deal but it's possible from either. Just make sure you get the specifics in writing before you commit any money to it.

 

[CalGalTraveler]

Skim does not apply to points really (other than a token one as pointed out by Superchief above and only in that use case). It applies to enrolled legacy weeks, and only if you elect to convert them that year to points. Borrow points is indeed "free" with MVC, and is save (bank) points. To add to your chart, trading in II to another Marriott is $0 for a legacy week (not points), included in that Annual Dues. As is locking off your unit. For this reason, your chart is misleading. At least I think so.

So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this? But would pay for II membership.

The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit. It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.

 

[chemteach]

So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this? But would pay for II membership.

The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit. It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.

This is my understanding as well. I am curious whether Presidential, Chairman, etc. status also gives some sort of benefit in the Marriott Rewards Points world. It will be interesting to find out (if Vistana and Marriott timeshare companies are somehow combined into a new overlay system) if the new system would give a special status in the hotel side MRP world, and what the levels of ownership needed would be to obtain such a status (again, IF VAC creates a combined overlay system and then IF status in MRP is provided to people with several units/points in the new new system). (That statement brought me way back to my college days learning Fortran!! )

 

[CalGalTraveler]

I politely disagree with your math on reservations. The enrolment difference is 2375 - 599 = 1776. But while there is a $65 reservation fee, there is also cheaper annual dues amount ($36 cheaper) which need to be taken in account.
So for a once a year reservation, it's 1776 / 29 (65-36) = 61 years. (of course for 2 reservations a year 1776 / 94 (65 + 65 - 36) = 18 years - for 3 reservations a year, 1776 / 159 (65 + 65 + 65 -36) = 11 years.)

Thank you for the updates and clarifications @Ralph Sir Edward. You are correct. My initial post was a "back of the envelope" and this calculation makes the break-even even worse; we Vistana and Hyatt owners will be watching that enrollment fee offer like a hawk given the alternatives for trading!

FWIW...If they remove StarOptions from our mandatory Vistana property in exchange for enrolling in DC, this will be a deal-breaker because it will reduce the value of the property because we cannot transfer StarOption trading rights to resale buyers.

To help the community, (and help me to sort through this merger), I would like to get post #152 and your comments updated into a Google Doc spreadsheet so we can make this more readable and include programs such as Worldmark and DVC. I am busy at work today so if someone would like to take the initiative to populate a Google Doc spreadsheet with the existing info from post #152 that so we can crowdsource updates, I would not mind. Otherwise I will try to find some cycles to start later.

 

[SueDonJ]

So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this? But would pay for II membership. ...

When a Week is enrolled the owner is assigned a new corporate II account. The annual DC Club Dues fee covers that membership as well as the fees for most II exchanges processed through that account, provided that the exchanges involve only Marriott resorts. You can exchange through that account to non-Marriott resorts but any ongoing requests for non-Marriott resorts and any exchanges to non-Marriott resorts will be charged the same fee as if they had been processed through an individual account. The corporate account is the same as an individual account as far as Getaways, AC's, etc

The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit. It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.

Correct. In addition, once externally-resold the new owner will not be able to re-enroll it because the Week then becomes ineligible based on the purchase date.

The other benefit to using Points in the DC Exchange Company as compared to Weeks in II is, with Points you can guarantee the view type because the Points Charts differentiate those while II does not make any guarantees as to view.

 

[Steve Fatula]

So if I understand this correctly, a legacy week owner could opt to trade the entire week (or lock-off) to another Marriott via II preference (size for size) and avoid the DC enrollment fee and annual DC club dues for this? But would pay for II membership.

The benefit of DC conversion is that it provides more flexibility for shorter stays, mid-week check-in, and borrowing/saving points from another year to make a longer stay or better unit. It is a points based overlay to the legacy weeks structure. And it is not transferable to resale purchasers of your unit.

An enrolled legacy week owner can II exchange to another Marriott with no additional cost. Enrolled means you are paying the annual dues for the DC program, have all of the benefits, and can elect to exchange your week for DC points (or not). Think of it this way, one can keep their legacy week non enrolled and it will work as it always did. The problem with that is if you exchange a lot, you will pay II membership, lockoff fee, exchange fee, all of which I did before the DC program. That adds up to more than the annual dues of the DC program (which includes II membership). So, if one is already a member of the DC program, it usually makes sense to enroll as you are already paying the annual dues already anyway, and, your total usage fees then go down. The key word is enrolled. The week was already owned by me. There is no enrollment fee, not sure what you mean by that? I paid nothing to enroll my week. Many today are also paying nothing to enroll their pre 2010 legacy weeks. You can also purchase points + enrolled week packages, again, there is no enrollment fee. There are terms here that might be throwing you off, I know it seems complicated but it's not really. Yes, these are not complete examples as their are always variations and little twists possible but in general, this is the way to look at it. Enrollment of my week has (and is) saved me a lot of money.

There are other benefits to the DC program. Other benefits include other ways to use your vacation, choice of view or room type (unlike exchanges), discounts on points to reserve based of membership level within 30 or 60 days, Marriott rewards status based on membership level, ability to purchase DC points for use from others who own them (not permanent points, consider them as rentals if you are short), in some cases much better availability for certain resorts, 13 months out reservations. etc.

 

[SueDonJ]

Might be talking to myself here but I just want to make clear that once a Week is DC-enrolled, the annual Club Dues fee has to be paid for the Week to remain enrolled regardless of whether an owner elects to convert that Week to DC Points or use it in a traditional manner in any given year. If the Club Dues fee is unpaid, enrollment expires and re-enrollment by the same owner will be subject to the enrollment fees and eligibility rules in effect at the time of re-enrollment.

 

[GregT]

All very good points but I'd challenge the one about "no skim in II." For some highest-demand Weeks there has always been a "skim" factor when exchanging via II.

I agree with Sue regarding the II and skimming -- we may get "like for like" in terms of room size (if you are lucky with the availability) but you should expect to get downgraded with respect to View. I also accept a downgrade in room size to increase odds of successful trade. When trading into MOC with my Willow, I will use the full 2BR Willow to get a 1BR at MMO (typically MG). Is that a skim? In that instance I do not think so because I value the MOC space greatly.

However trading a MOC OF Studio for a MKO Studio, that's always a Skim (and why I never do it) because it's OF for OV (or MG).

Best,

Greg

 

[Steve Fatula]

I agree with Sue -- we may get "like for like" in terms of room size (if you are lucky with the availability) but you should expect to get downgraded with respect to View. I also accept a downgrade in room size to increase odds of successful trade. When trading into MOC with my Willow, I will use the full 2BR Willow to get a 1BR at MMO (typically MG). Is that a skim? In that instance I do not think so because I value the MOC space greatly.

However trading a MOC OF Studio for a MKO Studio, that's always a Skim (and why I never do it) because it's OF for OV (or MG).

Best,

Greg

Very true, in some cases you will never get what you started with. That being said, it's not a skim at all. A skim applies to all. This does not. I suspect the majority of people do not lose out as we don't all have OV, and, many properties have no such concept. So, for us, it is not the case at all. Generally, I have gained on my trades, so, just saying it's not a skim. Trading a studio into a 2BR Ko Olina is definitely a win! So I agree with the main concept, you don't always win on a trade and can definitely lose view assuming you started with one, it's not a skim in any sense of the way it works for DC points and trading your week.

 

[Dean]

All very good points but I'd challenge the one about "no skim in II." For some highest-demand Weeks there has always been a "skim" factor when exchanging via II. Comparing the actual exchange history of my 3BR non-lockoff high-season Weeks, taking into account all the II Accommodation Certificate and Two-For-One extras that were made available to me at the time, I could get exactly the same exchanges in the DC that I got in II AND it would leave me with a surplus of DC Points. That's more exchange value from the DC than from II, in real practice. Granted, there are few 3BR non-lockoffs in the MVW portfolio and most TUGgers are experts at uptrading when playing the II game, but this is still a point worth making in the overall conversation.

It would depend on the specifics. Trading high end options has always been a much better value if trading up and there has always been a "loss" for a lateral exchange. Let's say I traded my MGO OF week for a different week there. I pay for the exchange, I likely won't get an OF and I'll lose my unit assignment priority. But if I trade my WR studio & 1 BR for two 1 BR at Ko Olina through my corporate account, I might get an OV unit (I own a MV there), I upgraded my studio to a 1BR & I might actually get an upgraded view rather than the 1850 points I'd get for the 2 BR. But this was all true before DC points, it's just there are additional options and considerations.

 

[SueDonJ]

I agree with Sue -- we may get "like for like" in terms of room size (if you are lucky with the availability) but you should expect to get downgraded with respect to View. I also accept a downgrade in room size to increase odds of successful trade. When trading into MOC with my Willow, I will use the full 2BR Willow to get a 1BR at MMO (typically MG). Is that a skim? In that instance I do not think so because I value the MOC space greatly.

However trading a MOC OF Studio for a MKO Studio, that's always a Skim (and why I never do it) because it's OF for OV (or MG).

Best,

Greg

None of my exchanges were lucky enough to match a 3BR to a 3BR in II - all of them were to 2BR, and that was only after I declined the 1BR units that II called and asked me to accept. And with Marriott actively finagling exchange inventory to prioritize owners exchanging back in to their home resorts, more of my II stays were view downgrades both with respect to the views I deposited AND to the unit/view type indicated on the II confirmation. I also have been unlucky with II in that the resort personnel never kept me in the same units for consecutive stays, which many TUGgers report happens routinely with their exchanges.

I don't know what it is about me and II but my experience over the years was never as positive as that of most TUGgers, despite me taking direction from them and being civil in all my dealings with II. Since the day the DC was introduced I haven't used II for anything but Getaways, and I'm one very happy camper for two reasons - first that I don't have to play in that infuriating II sandbox anymore, and second that Marriott allowed existing Weeks owners to play in the DC without requiring a Trust Points purchase!

 

[Steve Fatula]

None of my exchanges were lucky enough to match a 3BR to a 3BR in II - all of them were to 2BR, and that was only after I declined the 1BR units that II called and asked me to accept. And with Marriott actively finagling exchange inventory to prioritize owners exchanging back in to their home resorts, more of my II stays were view downgrades both with respect to the views I deposited AND to the unit/view type indicated on the II confirmation. I also have been unlucky with II in that the resort personnel never kept me in the same units for consecutive stays, which many TUGgers report happens routinely with their exchanges.

I don't know what it is about me and II but my experience over the years was never as positive as that of most TUGgers, despite me taking direction from them and being civil in all my dealings with II. Since the day the DC was introduced I haven't used II for anything but Getaways, and I'm one very happy camper for two reasons - first that I don't have to play in that infuriating II sandbox anymore, and second that Marriott allowed existing Weeks owners to play in the DC without requiring a Trust Points purchase!

I suspect your troubles were (at least):

1. 3BR, there are not tons of those in the system
2. Your ownership view, you have a nice unit
3. You are therefore an outlier

I don't think most of us are in that condition. If I were you, I likely would never trade either. You are spot on, it's nice that you can use the DC and not deal with the constraints in your case. That really was a good thing Marriott did there. For the rest of us, we just have a unit somewhere, no views, just a 2BR or 1BR. We're often happy because:

1. We wouldn't be trading somewhere if we didn't want to go there
2. It is almost certain we will get a like for like or better if we give some lead time, and the token unit size upgrade fee is more than worth it. Trading my desert studio into Ko Olina? Gladly pay the upgrade fee since it's a *massive* upgrade.
3. We are many times going to "nicer" places.
4. Sometimes, rarely, we luck out and actually get a view as a bonus. We were not really looking for one, but if we get it, bonus. As opposed to you who are expecting one since you have one.
5. We don't worry about it much as our MFs are much lower, so, we almost always get more MF than we traded.

Definitely no one size fits all for how to use. In our case, we would never trade into Orlando for example as we would consider that a loss. I use getaways for Orlando as weeks are often super cheap for much of the year.

 

[Ralph Sir Edward]

Junk fees is now $3.00 per point as of April 2018.

I was unaware of the fee hike, but it is not surprising.

Here is the rough math. (Bases on the latest HGVC Oahu tower. Enough of the costs leaked to make a rough calculation.)

On average, 1/2 of the selling price goes to Sales cost. Of the other 1/2, 2/3rds goes for the actual construction costs, and 1/3 is profit to the Timeshare company.

Now with DC point at $14 a point, that is $7 for sales, $4.66 for construction, leaving $2.34 net profit to MVC (on initial sale).

On resale of points, there is no sales cost. (bourne by the owner), no construction costs (already paid for by the initial sale), separate fees to cover the total expense of title transfer, and $3.00 (now) goes to profit for MVC.

Each resale, every resale. With weeks, MVC only got the initial sales profit. Nothing on any resale of weeks. See how much happier MVC is with points?

(Now this is rough math. Cost spreads could be shifted around somewhat. The general concept remains the same.)

 

[SueDonJ]

Very true, in some cases you will never get what you started with. That being said, it's not a skim at all. A skim applies to all. This does not. I suspect the majority of people do not lose out as we don't all have OV, and, many properties have no such concept. So, for us, it is not the case at all. Generally, I have gained on my trades, so, just saying it's not a skim. Trading a studio into a 2BR Ko Olina is definitely a win! So I agree with the main concept, you don't always win on a trade and can definitely lose view assuming you started with one, it's not a skim in any sense of the way it works for DC points and trading your week.

We'll have to disagree, Steve. As far as I'm concerned, based on unit size, placement and consecutive-stay priority, all of my II exchanges were a downgrade of what I own. All of it was no different than a DC Points Member having to accept - when exchanging their Week for Points - a smaller unit, lesser view and lower priority in the placement hierarchy. You can call it what you like but it's all the same skim to me.

I suspect your troubles were (at least):

1. 3BR, there are not tons of those in the system
2. Your ownership view, you have a nice unit
3. You are therefore an outlier

I don't think most of us are in that condition. If I were you, I likely would never trade either. You are spot on, it's nice that you can use the DC and not deal with the constraints in your case. That really was a good thing Marriott did there. For the rest of us, we just have a unit somewhere, no views, just a 2BR or 1BR. We're often happy because:

1. We wouldn't be trading somewhere if we didn't want to go there
2. It is almost certain we will get a like for like or better if we give some lead time, and the token unit size upgrade fee is more than worth it. Trading my desert studio into Ko Olina? Gladly pay the upgrade fee since it's a *massive* upgrade.
3. We are many times going to "nicer" places.
4. Sometimes, rarely, we luck out and actually get a view as a bonus. We were not really looking for one, but if we get it, bonus. As opposed to you who are expecting one since you have one.
5. We don't worry about it much as our MFs are much lower, so, we almost always get more MF than we traded.

Definitely no one size fits all for how to use. In our case, we would never trade into Orlando for example as we would consider that a loss. I use getaways for Orlando as weeks are often super cheap for much of the year.

Mostly correct, except I never had unreasonable expectations of II exchanges. It was my Marriott sales rep who explained to us before we purchased that views were not guaranteed in II and that very few 3BRs were deposited to II. The practically-guaranteed downgrades only became irritating when I learned from TUGgers that the things which might offset all my downgrades weren't being offered to me - AC's for high-demand inventory, Two-for-One certs for accepting a smaller unit, etc. I didn't ever want more than I should have been entitled to, but I did want as much as what others were apparently getting. Not having it offered to me was par for the course, asking nicely for it and being declined was infuriating.

But we're way off into the "skim" weeds here which probably isn't helping in this overall speculation related to how Marriott may integrate newly-acquired companies into the DC, if the acquisition goes through and if integration is allowed. Let's leave this at a point which TUG reached within the first year of the DC introduction - skim or no skim, whether what they ultimately may offer will be advantageous or not will depend completely on what you own and how you use it.

 

[bazzap]

I agree with Sue regarding the II and skimming -- we may get "like for like" in terms of room size (if you are lucky with the availability) but you should expect to get downgraded with respect to View. I also accept a downgrade in room size to increase odds of successful trade. When trading into MOC with my Willow, I will use the full 2BR Willow to get a 1BR at MMO (typically MG). Is that a skim? In that instance I do not think so because I value the MOC space greatly.

However trading a MOC OF Studio for a MKO Studio, that's always a Skim (and why I never do it) because it's OF for OV (or MG).

Best,

Greg

I guess I must just have been lucky with II exchanges and/or the MVC resorts I have gone to, even though I do multiple exchanges every year.
I have never downgraded unit size, mostly I have upgraded from studios to 2 or even 3 bed units.
(albeit I now have to pay upgrade fees for those)
I have also never been downgraded with respect to view.
Mostly my exchanges are tagged on to Home resort stays, which must certainly help, but not always.

 

[DannyTS]

I have a week at Westin Lagunamar and it is my favorite timeshare. Some of the other Vistana properties - Harborside and Kierland Villas, possibly others, have 2 full 1-bedroom lockoffs which are better than the studio-1 bedroom layout. One downside though is that Vistana doesn't have ovens which I wish they did so I could make a turkey at Thanksgiving.

It is also interesting to note that Marriott only has Aruba in the Caribbean if i am not mistaken. If they make a certain proposal for VSN owners, i am curious to see if they will offer a premium to Westin Lagunamar Cancun owners since Marriott may need those weeks more than in other resorts.

 

[Steve Fatula]

It is also interesting to note that Marriott only has Aruba in the Caribbean if i am not mistaken. If they make a certain proposal for VSN owners, i am curious to see if they will offer a premium to Westin Lagunamar Cancun owners since Marriott may need those weeks more than in other resorts.

St Kitts and St Thomas too.

 

[DannyTS]

St Kitts and St Thomas too.

you are 100% correct. My point still stands since there is no overlap in the Carribean: would they offer a premium to Cancun for example vs Orlando? Disclosure, i own both WLR and SVV Bella.

 

[dioxide45]

you are 100% correct. My point still stands since there is no overlap in the Carribean: would they offer a premium to Cancun for example vs Orlando? Disclosure, i own both WLR and SVV Bella.

Vistana is bringing a lot of Mexican inventory online over the next few years. They have recently opened the Westin Cancun Resort & Spa along with Los Cabos. Puerto Vallarta should be coming online in 2020 or 2021. Lagunamar has never really been a difficult StarOption trade in VSN except for holiday and peak season. I do expect that they would offer Ocean Side owners at Laguanamar a premium. All the other properties are in the Westin Aventuras program where if they offer something it will be an SO to DC ratio.

When they rolled out DC in 2010, it was initially said that the amount of DC points offered were more closely related to the purchase price, more so than said supply/demand. Many people noticed it was close to the last known selling price divided by 10. I don't know how true that is. The problem with Cancun is that there is so much inventory, everywhere. Hotels from $100 a night along with fairly reasonable all inclusives. For whatever reason, Cancun has never been a huge draw in VSN. The people that go there, including us, love it but there are also those that hate it. It would be the same in DC I would think.

 

[DannyTS]

Vistana is bringing a lot of Mexican inventory online over the next few years. They have recently opened the Westin Cancun Resort & Spa along with Los Cabos. Puerto Vallarta should be coming online in 2020 or 2021. Lagunamar has never really been a difficult StarOption trade in VSN except for holiday and peak season. I do expect that they would offer Ocean Side owners at Laguanamar a premium. All the other properties are in the Westin Aventuras program where if they offer something it will be an SO to DC ratio.

When they rolled out DC in 2010, it was initially said that the amount of DC points offered were more closely related to the purchase price, more so than said supply/demand. I don't know how true that is.

Thank you.

 

[DannyTS]

Thank you for the updates and clarifications @Ralph Sir Edward.

FWIW...If they remove StarOptions from our mandatory Vistana property in exchange for enrolling in DC, this will be a deal-breaker because it will reduce the value of the property because we cannot transfer StarOption trading rights to resale buyers.

.

It will also be a deal breaker because of the expected skimming. But removing StarOptions can be a hard nut to crack. In the declaration of Condominium of Bella Florida not only it is stated that the owners are automatically members of the club but also that the StarOptions are the trading "currency". I assume that similar language was used for the other mandatory resorts.

 

[DannyTS]

I am hoping they might convert my 176K SO for WKOVN-OF to an equivalent number of DC Points so I can either use my deeded week or trade within the new program’s 100+ timeshare resorts. The problem with StarOptions now is I own one of the best Vistana properties so I would rarely exchange within the VSE network unless I could get another Maui OF 2 bedroom or I could go to WSJ. If I could get enough DC Points to exchange my WKOVR-N OF for an equivalent Hawaii or Caribbean OF 2 bedroom, then I think I would be better off if Marriott gets rid of Star Options and converts my Star Options into DC Points. That would thoroughly enhance my like-for-like trading options. The only open issue is whether Marriott would take away the ability to resell mandatory resorts with DC Points, if it gets rid of StarOptions. The down side here is it may devalue the resale value of the mandatory resorts. However, if they roll it out right, maybe things would be fine. The VSE mandatory resorts are already pretty cheap compared to equivalent Marriott resorts in similar destinations and these do not transfer with the ability to enroll in the DC program. Since I own all OF/OV units as well as other high end timeshares, I lose if I deposit in II. I only use II and RCI for Getaways.

The problem with the conversion is that you may become a second class citizen if the rate is not fair. Your 176K SO for WKOVN-OF (2 bedroom right) at a 30 to 1 (as some suggested) would give you 5886 DC points while to reserve a prime 2 bedroom OF at Marriott in Hawaii you need 7500-9500 DC points (some weeks as high as 10,000 points. Even 25:1 is not enough, probably 20:1 is starting to make more sense although some weeks of the year may still be out of reach for you in Hawaii unless you are trading down.

 

[BocaBoy]

I am a bit amused by these so-called analyses that conclude that II trading gets values you could never get with DC points. In reality, it all depends on what you are trying to get. Most of the analyses involve trading for high season weeks at the top resorts. In our case, we like to use DC points to trade into places like Hilton Head in the off season (which for us is a more enjoyable trip than in the summer). In II, the best we could do would be to lock off our Maui week and get two HHI weeks, plus perhaps a bonus week, and now the HHI weeks would also require upgrade fees. With DC points a couple years ago, we used the points from our Maui week to book 30 consecutive ocean front days in January at Grande Ocean, and we still had approximately 1/3 of the Maui points left over to use elsewhere. When the system can yield values like this, it is hard for me to get upset over some "skim."