Minimum purchase to enroll a PIC

[Braindead]

paying. Even $ 10k for silver is a waste of money.

I usually agree with you Ron but I don’t on this one.

Low MF resale contracts have been bringing $10 per thousand or higher.

If you can get over 550k developer status points for under $20 per thousand with low MFs.
I would recommend paying the additional cost. Silver just happens to come along with it and about all of us have probably made reservations that would get the Silver discount and or upgrade.

Then in the future if you want to achieve higher VIP and can handle it financially your well on your way.

As Cyrus24 and I have posted being Gold for $30k to $35k was worth it to us and have no regrets

 

[Avislo]

Within the last week or so a 49,000 contract could be gotten through Old Town Alexandria. Do not know if it came with any PIC rights.

 

[Avislo]

Maybe someone going to the Old Town Alexandria meeting could go ask about the availability of this and it may not even take a sales meeting to get the information.

 

[Braindead]

I saw some people post that they were told that you have to purchase a minimum of 105,000 points to enroll a PIC. That might be the case if you buy at a resort. I was told by a person at Wyndham corporate sales (also called telesales), that the minimum is 49,000 points (around $10k). You can enroll up to two fixed weeks with that 49,000 points package. I enrolled a four bedroom at Williamsburg Plantation that I got on eBay for $28 total. I mention this, because I don’t want someone overpaying to enroll a PIC or to have to deal with a resort sales person. At least the people at corporate sales have their calls recorded. The resort sales guys won’t let you record the conversation. Hope this helps some of you.

Update:

Some of you reading this may not know much about PIC. PIC stands for Personal Interval Choice. Page 359 of the 2014-2015 directory explains more, but this is the nutshell version. If you have a qualifying fixed non-Wyndham week timeshare, you can enroll up to two of them in PIC. There are two flavors of PIC. PIC Express which is good for five years. Then there is PIC Plus which is permanent for as long as you own both the fixed week and points contract. Neither PIC contracts are transferable on the resale market. You can only enroll a fixed week at the time of a retail purchase. Each fixed week has a fixed point value:


one bedroom 105,000 points


two bedroom 154,000 points


three (or more) bedrooms 254,000 points.


With PIC plus, you can use those points towards VIP status and to make reservations ($89 fee per week IF you use the points for bookings). With PIC Express, it only counts towards VIP status. You cannot use those points to make bookings. To enroll a fixed week into either PIC program, you need to make a point purchase. The minimum purchase is 49,000 points if you buy through corporate ($10,000). If you buy through the resorts, they will likely make you buy 105,000 points ($20k-$25k). When you buy those 49,000 points, you can enroll up to two fixed weeks for a maximum if 508,000 points (two 3 bedrooms). Keep in mind, you still have to pay the maintenance fees for the fixed week, as well as the Wyndham program fee if .56/1000 w/o Plus partners or .58/1000 w/Plus Partners. My fixed week has a maintenance fee of $849 a year. Add in the program fee and my total fees for that fixed week is $996.32 per year for a three bedroom. That works out to $3.92/1000 points. Cheaper then the majority of points contracts.

Would you please post the quote you had on the 64k CWA contract.
Your price on the 49k CWA contract is $10,000.00 thats over $200 per 1k points that’s awfully high.
I’m sure I could buy the 64k contract and enroll the PICs for around $10,000.00
You say about the same price for both contracts.

I don’t understand why you keep recommending the 49k in all the threads if an owner can get 64k for about the same net purchase price in dollars.
Why not recommend buying the 64k contract? Free 15k developer points

 

[Richelle]

Would you please post the quote you had on the 64k CWA contract.
Your price on the 49k CWA contract is $10,000.00 thats over $200 per 1k points that’s awfully high.
I’m sure I could buy the 64k contract and enroll the PICs for around $10,000.00
You say about the same price for both contracts.

I don’t understand why you keep recommending the 49k in all the threads if an owner can get 64k for about the same net purchase price in dollars.
Why not recommend buying the 64k contract?

Good points. The 64,000 contract I was referring to was Bentley Brook. That has higher fees so it’s harder to sell, so they sell it less then CWA which is more popular. Also, the fewer points you buy, the higher the price per 1,000. The $10k mark is $204 per 1,000 points for a 49,000 point contract. I was offered a 105,000 point CWA contract for $16,800. That’s $160 per 1,000 points. The more you buy, the cheaper it is. The resorts with higher fees cost less then the more popular options such as CWA, Bonnet, National Harbor, etc.

Yes, it doesn’t make sense to spend $10k on a 49,000 point contract when you can get 64,000 for the same price except, if you want to step your way up to VIP and want all your points with a specific resort or CWA. It makes sense to go for the high MF contract for more points, if you don’t plan on buying more points. The savings would be negligible for that small amount of points.

 

[Richelle]

Would you please post the quote you had on the 64k CWA contract.
Your price on the 49k CWA contract is $10,000.00 thats over $200 per 1k points that’s awfully high.
I’m sure I could buy the 64k contract and enroll the PICs for around $10,000.00
You say about the same price for both contracts.

I don’t understand why you keep recommending the 49k in all the threads if an owner can get 64k for about the same net purchase price in dollars.
Why not recommend buying the 64k contract? Free 15k developer points

Would you like it better if I said “you could get 49,000 to 64,000 points for around $10k”

Edit: I was just told the price went up, but the caveat is that the new price is a base price. You can likely negotiate it down depending on what you ask for. The harder to dump contracts will likely go for lower. The new price is $12,900. I think you were right about enticing owners, but they were doing it by price and not minimum # of points.

 

[Braindead]

Would you like it better if I said “you could get 49,000 to 64,000 points for around $10k”

Edit: I was just told the price went up, but the caveat is that the new price is a base price. You can likely negotiate it down depending on what you ask for. The harder to dump contracts will likely go for lower. The new price is $12,900.

I believe you stated the telesales lady said you could get the 64k contract for about the same price.
If I’m offered 49k or 64k CWA for $10,000 and enroll 2 PICs
I would take the 64k every time and really don’t understand why anybody wouldn’t take the 15k free points

 

[Richelle]

I believe you stated the telesales lady said you could get the 64k contract for about the same price.
If I’m offered 49k or 64k CWA for $10,000 and enroll 2 PICs
I would take the 64k every time and really don’t understand why anybody wouldn’t take the 15k free points

If that was going to be my one and only points purchase or I already had points at a low fee resort sure. It wouldn’t make much of a difference If I was looking to slowly building up my points by paying cash for small purchases, I’d pay a little extra for the lower Mf. A “little” being the key word. Otherwise I’d be building up my points with high Mf contracts. I think it’s a matter of preference really. I think most would go for the most points option if MF were not an issue for them.

 

[raygo123]

It only makes sense now with the new rules to do the PIC program if you already own qualifying resorts for life time PIC. In my case my PIC is in Mexico, i pay MFs of $800 every 10 years.

Sent from my LGLK430 using Tapatalk

 

[ronparise]

I usually agree with you Ron but I don’t on this one.

Low MF resale contracts have been bringing $10 per thousand or higher.

If you can get over 550k developer status points for under $20 per thousand with low MFs.
I would recommend paying the additional cost. Silver just happens to come along with it and about all of us have probably made reservations that would get the Silver discount and or upgrade.

Then in the future if you want to achieve higher VIP and can handle it financially your well on your way.

As Cyrus24 and I have posted being Gold for $30k to $35k was worth it to us and have no regrets

That you don’t have regrets is not enough to convince me that it makes sense

I bought a $55000 boat. It was a stupid decision from a dollars and cents (or sense point of view, but I have no regrets.

Here’s my thinking on a silver account the only real benefit is the 25% discount

Two weeks 3 bedroom weeks PICed with a 49000 point purchase the owner would end up with a silver account with a total 557000 points. Let’s assume this owner can get half of his reservations inside the discount window. He effectively has the use of about 625000 points

Now let’s consider the above owners best friend. He is a wyndham resale points owner that has a 500000 point account. He wants to make the same reservations as his friend so he needs to add an additional 126000 points contract to what he owns. He finds a wyndham owner on the tug bargain deals forum who is giving away a contract of this size

He will pay about $500 closing and transfer fees and his mf will increase about $300 a year more than his friend

So the one guy spends $10000 up front and his fees go up about $300 a year and the second guy spends $500 up front and his fees go up $600 a year.

10000/600 = 16 years to break even

You might argue that the first guy owns 3 bedroom weeks with a low mf ok I’ll grant you that let’s assume 2 weeks at $900 a year add the $89 annual fees and we are at $2000 mf. And let’s assume the second guy started with 500000 points at $6/1000 or $3000 mf. A difference of $1000 a year

I presume my guy will invest 10000 in a stock index fund and his account will grow at the rate of 10% a year earning back that $1000 every year


Bottom line silver is worthless

 

[Cyrus24]

Bottom line silver is worthless

Worth/Value is always in the eye of the beholder. The 25% discount is not near as important to me as is the later date for doing a Points Deposit. I can't put a price on having that later date as an option. Opens up all kinds of late year travel options that just weren't available with a March deposit date.

 

[Richelle]

So

That you don’t have regrets is not enough to convince me that it makes sense

I bought a $55000 boat. It was a stupid decision from a dollars and sense point of view, but I have no regrets.

Here’s my thinking on a silver account the only real benefit is the 25% discount

Two weeks 3 bedroom weeks PICed with a 49000 point purchase the owner would end up with a silver account with a total 557000 points. Let’s assume this owner can get half of his reservations inside the discount window. He effectively has the use of about 625000 points

Now let’s consider the above owners best friend. He is a wyndham resale points owner that has a 500000 point account. He wants to make the same reservations as his friend so he needs to add an additional 126000 points contract to what he owns. He finds a wyndham owner on the tug bargain deals forum who is giving away a contract of this size

He will pay about $500 closing and transfer fees and his mf will increase about $300 a year more than his friend

So the one guy spends $10000 up front and his fees go up about $300 a year and the second guy spends $500 up front and his fees go up $600 a year.

10000/600 = 16 years to break even

You might argue that the first guy owns 3 bedroom weeks with a low mf ok I’ll grant you that let’s assume 2 weeks at $900 a year add the $89 annual fees and we are at $2000 mf. And let’s assume the second guy started with 500000 points at $6/1000 or $3000 mf. A difference of $1000 a year

I presume my guy will invest 10000 in a stock index fund and his account will grow at the rate of 10% a year earning back that $1000 every year


Bottom line silver is worthless

if I followed your logic correctly, assuming the guy did invest that $10k into a 10% return stock index fund, both end up with the same after the first 10 years. The only exception being the Silver guy probably got some upgrades, so if we are playing even Stephens we should account if the extra points for the bigger room the resale guy has to pay. After 10 years, the guy with the stock fund will continue earning that $1k a year provided he doesn’t remove his investment from the stock fund. Here is my only issue with that. You’re assuming they would actually put that money into an investment and that there is actually a 10% return. When you bought that boat, did you consider putting that money into a stock index rather then buying a boat? I’m guessing you went with the boat because at the time, the entertainment value was worth more to you then earning money by investing it. We could all stick that money in an investment and let it continue to grow. While we are at it, let’s just skip the timeshares altogether and put the money we’d be paying in Mf into the stock fund as well. No one NEEDS timeshares. No one NEEDS boats. We get them for the entertainment value. Now, from a logic perspective, you are right that the responsible thing to do would be to invest that money. When you buy a car, do you buy the cheapest beater you can to get you from point A to Point B, and invest the savings into a stock index fund? No. Likely you chose a car you like to drive, and has some features you want but don’t need.

My point is, yes, we could stick all our money in a stock index and only buy the absolute minimum we need to survive. But what is the point of doing that, for the next 50 years, assuming you live that long? In your case, the two are dead even for ten years, provided there is no economic downturn that drags that out. During that time, the Silver guy is getting upgrades on at least some of his reservations. He also has unlimited housekeeping credits so he can take mini vacations without having to worry about using them up. At $8 per 1,000 that can add up. Then you have the extended points deposit deadline that allows you more time to decide if you are going to use or move your points. He also continues to have Silver after that 10 year mark. I don’t disagree with you that Silver is not worth much, but I think in this particular scenario, it’s worth at least that much.

 

[skotrla]

That you don’t have regrets is not enough to convince me that it makes sense

I bought a $55000 boat. It was a stupid decision from a dollars and sense point of view, but I have no regrets.

Here’s my thinking on a silver account the only real benefit is the 25% discount

Two weeks 3 bedroom weeks PICed with a 49000 point purchase the owner would end up with a silver account with a total 557000 points. Let’s assume this owner can get half of his reservations inside the discount window. He effectively has the use of about 625000 points

Now let’s consider the above owners best friend. He is a wyndham resale points owner that has a 500000 point account. He wants to make the same reservations as his friend so he needs to add an additional 126000 points contract to what he owns. He finds a wyndham owner on the tug bargain deals forum who is giving away a contract of this size

He will pay about $500 closing and transfer fees and his mf will increase about $300 a year more than his friend

So the one guy spends $10000 up front and his fees go up about $300 a year and the second guy spends $500 up front and his fees go up $600 a year.

10000/600 = 16 years to break even

You might argue that the first guy owns 3 bedroom weeks with a low mf ok I’ll grant you that let’s assume 2 weeks at $900 a year add the $89 annual fees and we are at $2000 mf. And let’s assume the second guy started with 500000 points at $6/1000 or $3000 mf. A difference of $1000 a year

I presume my guy will invest 10000 in a stock index fund and his account will grow at the rate of 10% a year earning back that $1000 every year


Bottom line silver is worthless

Generally agree, but a couple of points to consider -

1) The extra 4 guests certificates are worth $400/year - not everyone will use these, but still something to consider

2) In the last 16 years, S&P 500 has gone up about 7% per year

If you combine these together, that's $700/year in benefits the Silver VIP owner gets, reducing the break even as low as 8 years, so generally still not worth it, but not quite as bad.

-Scott

 

[capital city]

I think a more accurate comparison would be a electric car vs a gas car not whether you buy a nice car vs a beater. If the same electric car saves you $500 year in gas but cost 5k more upfront. It will take 10 years straight up to break even. If you invest that 5k and get 10% you will never break even. But how much is it worth to you to save the environment?

 

[Cyrus24]

I drove a 'clean' diesel VW until they determined that they were not really 'clean'. I paid the premium and thought I was helping the environment!!! At the end of the day, I wasn't helping the environment but made out like a bandit with the settlement. I was actually a winner on that new car purchase.

My point. We all make decisions for our own reasons. Some are winners, some are losers and only the individual making the decision may do the categorization.

 

[ronparise]

Generally agree, but a couple of points to consider -

1) The extra 4 guests certificates are worth $400/year - not everyone will use these, but still something to consider

2) In the last 16 years, S&P 500 has gone up about 7% per year

If you combine these together, that's $700/year in benefits the Silver VIP owner gets, reducing the break even as low as 8 years, so generally still not worth it, but not quite as bad.

-Scott

Even if I put the $10000 under my mattress and it dosent appreciate at all, I still have it and my timeshares 10 years later. You only have your timeshares

 

[skotrla]

Depending on the assumptions you make, you can get to break even as early as Y5 - with the default assumptions listed, the resale purchaser is paying an extra $40K over 20 years.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_4coq6UCfqPVyE1A3bOA9zRSgQEi-I1m

Change: Break Even Year, Extra money paid by resale buyer

Default: Y6, $41K
Investment Return = 10%: Y6, $40K
Annual Points Needed = 1000K: Y5, $51K
60-day Bookings = 25%: Y7, $33K
Annual Maintenance Increase = 3%: Y6, $33K
Annual Guest Fees Used = 1: Y7, $33K

-Scott

 

[skotrla]

Even if I put the $10000 under my mattress and it dosent appreciate at all, I still have it and my timeshares 10 years later. You only have your timeshares

The investment income on the $10K was supposed to pay the maintenance delta - if you are paying an extra $1K per year on maintenance, the $10K will be gone in 10 years.

-Scott

 

[skotrla]

Depending on the assumptions you make, you can get to break even as early as Y5 - with the default assumptions listed, the resale purchaser is paying an extra $40K over 20 years.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_4coq6UCfqPVyE1A3bOA9zRSgQEi-I1m

Change: Break Even Year, Extra money paid by resale buyer

Default: Y6, $41K
Investment Return = 10%: Y6, $40K
Annual Points Needed = 1000K: Y5, $51K
60-day Bookings = 25%: Y7, $33K
Annual Maintenance Increase = 3%: Y6, $33K
Annual Guest Fees Used = 1: Y7, $33K

-Scott

Left off the biggest sensitivity...

Resale Initial Cost $8/1K, Resale Annual Cost $5/1K: Y6, $24K
Resale Initial Cost $12/1K, Resale Annual Cost $4/1K: Y9, $6K

In any long term analysis, maintenance cost dominates.

-Scott

 

[ronparise]

I was a silver owner from my first day owning Wyndham and it came with a resale purchase. I never found any value with it.. Gold is a different story, but even then, if I have a choice between spending money up front, or spending a little more each month... Im holding on to bank account

You guys see it differently, thats great.....Wyndham wins

 

[Marathoner]

I was a silver owner from my first day owning Wyndham and it came with a resale purchase. I never found any value with it.. Gold is a different story, but even then, if I have a choice between spending money up front, or spending a little more each month... Im holding on to bank account

You guys see it differently, thats great.....Wyndham wins

Understand. But you were platinum and you've definitely benefited from that elite status, right?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

 

[Avislo]

He says he bought a boat off of profits from his Wyndham activity.

 

[Cyrus24]

He developed a pretty solid business model, operating on loop holes. Wyndham shut it down. Wyndham wins!!! I do wish they'd found a better way of eliminating Point Stripping than doing away with the Credit Pool. That hurt all of us who actually used our points for personal enjoyment.

 

[Richelle]

He developed a pretty solid business model, operating on loop holes. Wyndham shut it down. Wyndham wins!!! I do wish they'd found a better way of eliminating Point Stripping than doing away with the Credit Pool. That hurt all of us who actually used our points for personal enjoyment.

Wyndham may have won in the end but he still made money from it.

 

[ronparise]

Understand. But you were platinum and you've definitely benefited from that elite status, right?

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Yes I was Platinum, but I did it for $6000 down and $150 a month and even that was too much except for three things that cant be done anymore


Platinum is much more valuable than Silver. 30 guest confirms and unlimited transactions made a big difference, but the big deal was that I learned from tuggers was that you could become Platinum with just a 63000 point direct purchase, ($12000)But even $12000 was too much, Ultimately I figured out how to get VIP with all resale contracts. You only needed 1 million VIP eligible points. You could then add up to a total of 40 contracts per account and all the points got the discount But even that didnt help much because the reservations I got within 60 days of check in were not good rentals.. What made my accounts profitable was learning the cancel/rebook/upgrade trick... Everything could be discounted and you cant do that any more But that aint all........

There were three features of a wyndam ownership that I used to make the system work for me (some might call them loopholes 1) cheap (free) VIP accounts 2) the cancel rebook trick and 3) the credit pool

The problem was that I got too big, Using the credit pool. I was using 3 years of points in my first year of ownership but just breaking even in future years.. I had to grow or die, and I didnt have an exit strategy .. I had to dump some of my contracts every year.. I needed a buyer.....and I didnt have one, until I did

In 2014, I sold off 20 million points (I kept 10) and bought another 20 million, did it again in 2015 and was on my way to doing it yet again in 2016. and then my world fell apart.. Wyndham froze my accounts (and a lot of others) It wasnt rentals that brought me down. wyndham really doesnt have a problem with rentals (They do on the scale I was doing it, but not generally) . Their problem was that I had more reservations in my account than my ownership could justify. I had 90 million points in reservations in a 10 million point account. and they couldnt figure out how that could happen..... so I told them. I used the credit pool to put 3 years of points into reservations, then I sold the underlying contracts..

I still remember the exact words I used to tell their lawyer what had happened. "I owned 30 million points at the beginning of the year, I used the credit pool to put 90 million points in reservations, and then I sold contracts with a face value of 20 million points, that were now stripped of points.....(pause for effect) and the ironic thing is; You bought them" "Oh and I have 10 million more points under contract to buy. They will settle by the end of the year. I intend to strip them and sell those contracts to you too"

Thats what pissed them off. Not the rentals, not stripping contracts, not even that I sold off the stripped contracts....What pissed them off was that they were the ones that bought the stripped contracts.

I may be taking more credit than I deserve, but I think you can thank me (and the other guys that were doing what I did) for the auto upgrade feature that brought and end to the cancel/rebook/uppgrade trick and you can thank me for the end of the credit pool

I didnt have a business, I had a hustle, that worked for a while and then it didnt... not for me, or anyone else..