Minimum Wyndham Points per Resale Purchase

[skotrla]

On the HICV side, I used to purchase units as small as 45K, but due to closing costs, I established a minimum of 75K annual (150K biennial).

One of the things I've been trying to figure out is what a good equivalent points size on the Wyndham size is.

Here's my latest math:

75K HICV points = 106K Wyndham points based on RCI/DRI ratios (0.71 factor).

HICV Closing Costs = $300 ($150 deed prep + $50 county fees + $100 transfer fees)

Wyndham Closing Costs = $500 ($150 deed prep + $50 county fees + $300 transfer fees)

Assuming you want to keep closing costs / point consistent, larger closing costs = larger contract, so 106K x $500/$300 = 176K.

Closing costs are paid on both sides of the transaction - even if the seller pays them when you buy, you are getting closing costs instead of a discount.

Buying a Wyndham unit smaller than 176K annual (352K biennial) would be like buying a HICV unit smaller than 75K - something I did in the past but learned not to do in the future once I started fully taking into account transaction costs.

I've added to my detailed comparison chart:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uf6xo4XB9BRvK_4L7iUYqZaRTLwKVaP1Xno5ZyW-S-M/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone has experience with DRI, Mariott, Shell, Bluegreen, Hyatt, or Disney and can help fill out the chart for those systems let me know.

-Scott

 

[buckor]

On the HICV side, I used to purchase units as small as 45K, but due to closing costs, I established a minimum of 75K annual (150K biennial).

One of the things I've been trying to figure out is what a good equivalent points size on the Wyndham size is.

Here's my latest math:

75K HICV points = 106K Wyndham points based on RCI/DRI ratios (0.71 factor).

HICV Closing Costs = $300 ($150 deed prep + $50 county fees + $100 transfer fees)

Wyndham Closing Costs = $500 ($150 deed prep + $50 county fees + $300 transfer fees)

Assuming you want to keep closing costs / point consistent, larger closing costs = larger contract, so 106K x $500/$300 = 176K.

Closing costs are paid on both sides of the transaction - even if the seller pays them when you buy, you are getting closing costs instead of a discount.

Buying a Wyndham unit smaller than 176K annual (352K biennial) would be like buying a HICV unit smaller than 75K - something I did in the past but learned not to do in the future once I started fully taking into account transaction costs.

I've added to my detailed comparison chart:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uf6xo4XB9BRvK_4L7iUYqZaRTLwKVaP1Xno5ZyW-S-M/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone has experience with DRI, Mariott, Shell, Bluegreen, Hyatt, or Disney and can help fill out the chart for those systems let me know.

-Scott

I've never focused on closing costs (unless they were just too much) as you've outlined. As a matter of fact, I do most of my own doc prep and recording now to save me and the seller money. The $299 has to be paid no matter...

So, $300 (or $450, in your scenario) doesn't bother me as much as MFs. I can buy a smaller contract with low MFs and make up that cost very easily versus a larger contract that may have higher MFs. I won't buy a larger point contract just because it's larger and makes my average closing costs, or even cost/1k point, look better. I watch my long-term costs of MFs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727AZ using Tapatalk

 

[breezez]

Scott,

Transaction cost will always affect your price. If you take your closing / transfer costs and divide by points received you will see what this cost is per points. Small contracts are always more expensive per point on the buy side because of this.

The real cost is the MF and Program fee’s. On Wyndham I would consider what ever you buy and pay up front will be a loss. There is a high probability you may never get money back on what you paid up front. You may just don’t bank on it.

With Wyndham you have a minimum program fee so small contracts pay more than .58 per 1000 points. MF’s can vary a great deal to as much as almost double the lowest price Wyndham’s. If you must have ARP then you will probably want what you want irregardless of MF per point. But if ARP is not that important then lower priced mf points are the best.

Personally I can only think of two reason to buy a tiny contract. If I just wanted access to RCI (however a triennial RCI points contract would be cheaper still.). Or to add a relative to my account without having them on the hook for all my contracts one day. Buy a 28K contract and put them on it with you. This will give them access to all your points and won’t require guest certificate for them but only have them on the hook for that contract if you pass one day.

106K won’t allow you much in Wyndham especially the newer stuff. In your spreadsheet your Wyndham Points for a 2 Bedroom exchange is incorrect Wyndham point stuff has a fixed trade grid for RCI.

In Wyndham you can’t borrow points from others only buy them from Wyndham at a stiff price. The 106K contract will leave you staying either non demand weeks or moving points from one use year to another so you have enough for a vacation.

How many points you need. Simply look at resort directory find places you want to go and then look at what they cost in times you would want to travel that is minimum to buy, don’t overbuy either or you could end up paying MF,s on Points you can’t use.

 

[skotrla]

I've never focused on closing costs (unless they were just too much) as you've outlined. As a matter of fact, I do most of my own doc prep and recording now to save me and the seller money. The $299 has to be paid no matter...

So, $300 (or $450, in your scenario) doesn't bother me as much as MFs. I can buy a smaller contract with low MFs and make up that cost very easily versus a larger contract that may have higher MFs. I won't buy a larger point contract just because it's larger and makes my average closing costs, or even cost/1k point, look better. I watch my long-term costs of MFs.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J727AZ using Tapatalk

Agree that maintenance fees are critical too - this is just a second factor to keep in mind. I target HICV units in the $5-$6/1K range, making my Wyndham target $3.55-$4.26, which is pretty tough to find.

I do my own doc prep as well, but usually on one side of the transaction (buying or selling) there's third party closing. If you use an average of the low end ($20 in a state like SC) and the high end ($150 deed prep + $50 county recording), you get to an average of $110.

That makes the minimum contract size worth considering 106K x $410/$210 = 207K for people who do their own doc prep.

-Scott

 

[skotrla]

Scott,

Transaction cost will always affect your price. If you take your closing / transfer costs and divide by points received you will see what this cost is per points. Small contracts are always more expensive per point on the buy side because of this.

The real cost is the MF and Program fee’s. On Wyndham I would consider what ever you buy and pay up front will be a loss. There is a high probability you may never get money back on what you paid up front. You may just don’t bank on it.

With Wyndham you have a minimum program fee so small contracts pay more than .58 per 1000 points. MF’s can vary a great deal to as much as almost double the lowest price Wyndham’s. If you must have ARP then you will probably want what you want irregardless of MF per point. But if ARP is not that important then lower priced mf points are the best.

Personally I can only think of two reason to buy a tiny contract. If I just wanted access to RCI (however a triennial RCI points contract would be cheaper still.). Or to add a relative to my account without having them on the hook for all my contracts one day. Buy a 28K contract and put them on it with you. This will give them access to all your points and won’t require guest certificate for them but only have them on the hook for that contract if you pass one day.

106K won’t allow you much in Wyndham especially the newer stuff. In your spreadsheet your Wyndham Points for a 2 Bedroom exchange is incorrect Wyndham point stuff has a fixed trade grid for RCI.

In Wyndham you can’t borrow points from others only buy them from Wyndham at a stiff price. The 106K contract will leave you staying either non demand weeks or moving points from one use year to another so you have enough for a vacation.

How many points you need. Simply look at resort directory find places you want to go and then look at what they cost in times you would want to travel that is minimum to buy, don’t overbuy either or you could end up paying MF,s on Points you can’t use.

I'm talking per contract and not per account and I'm talking resale. For developer purchases, the rules are completely different. Money spent on developer purchases is completely unrecoverable when you exit - hopefully you get enough benefits over the life of the ownership to cover.

My spreadsheet shows the cost to book a Wyndham unit with RCI points averaged across the entire portfolio.

Details per resort are here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qg7jd4yPldw-HPWaPkVk1E68KsETwoIuyBFnJPulkgw/edit?usp=sharing

Comparing how many Wydham points it takes to book a Wyndham resort that it costs 100K RCI points to book and then doing the same for another timeshare system allows you to compare the relative value of points within systems and is where the 0.71 factor between HICV and Wyndham comes from.

-Scott

 

[ronparise]

once again
paralysis by analysis

 

[Braindead]

once again
paralysis by analysis

Amen!!!!

 

[MaryBella7]

I think you are a hot mess. Why would you pay so many fees?

 

[capital city]

Why does anyone over analyze numbers. Break them down in simple form, no spreadsheets. When I look for a Wyndham contract I am looking for $5 /thousand or better on a contract that I want. It doesn't matter what the fees are. Processing, closing, doc prep, admin fees, bid price. Who gives a shit? I'm not paying more than my price otd.

 

[skotrla]

Why does anyone over analyze numbers. Break them down in simple form, no spreadsheets. When I look for a Wyndham contract I am looking for $5 /thousand or better on a contract that I want. It doesn't matter what the fees are. Processing, closing, doc prep, admin fees, bid price. Who gives a shit? I'm not paying more than my price otd.

The spreadsheet was background for someone who questioning the RCI conversion methodology and not the contract size analysis.

You will be paying closing costs when you exit one way or another - you want to position yourself for the least cost when that time comes. As people have said many times, any system can change for the worse at any time. I made a mistake years ago and accepted two biennial units in place of an annual unit due to a listing error at "no cost". A few years later, the resort tripled the transfer fee, and I still regret the purchase.

What's the highest resort transfer fee in the industry? Could Wyndham raise the transfer fee from $300 to $1000? If I am building up to 500K in points, I want it in 2-3 contracts and not 5-10, even if the 10 have "free closing."

-Scott

 

[skotrla]

once again
paralysis by analysis

Not all of us get 3 years of points for a few months of maintenance and unlimited 4BRs each at half the price of a 1BR

I agree that in a situation like that, whether your 100M points cost $10K or $100K is irrelevant - all you had to do was buy, buy, buy until the house of cards came tumbling down.

Some of have to work a little harder to make a decent buy vs. rent decision. At the end of the day, everything comes down to assumptions and spreadsheets. Never commit yourself to long-term ownership if you aren't going to save money - just rent whatever you want whenever you want it at whatever the going price is at the time.

What I really need is someone to build a proxy reservation interface to allow me to check inventory without a Wyndham account - then the renting experience would approach the ownership experience. I'm going to try something similar for HICV to use as a model and then hopefully an IT savvy Wyndham owner can replicate the effort.

-Scott

 

[Jan M.]

Could Wyndham raise the transfer fee from $300 to $1000? If I am building up to 500K in points, I want it in 2-3 contracts and not 5-10, even if the 10 have "free closing."

Free or cheap isn't always free or cheap in the end.

I always urge people to go for the larger point deeds or contracts rather than the smaller ones. And I also urge them to look for maintenance fees close to $5 or less per thousand points even if they have to pay more. That the person should consider paying more if they can recover the higher cost in 10 years or less if they are say younger than mid to later 50's and if older maybe 5-7 years. Both the higher point and lower maintenance fee deeds will have greater appeal should the time come that you want to get rid of it down the road. Almost everyone who gets those lower point deeds and contracts discovers they will need or want more points so comes back looking for more points and has to pay those same fees all over again on subsequent purchases that they could have avoided by going for more points from the start. Should a person wish to divest at some future date they may be the one footing the bill for the closing costs and transfer fees on all those smaller points acquisitions.

This can be one of those if I knew then what I know now I would have done things differently situations. Which is what happens to many of us.

 

[Jan M.]

Not all of us get 3 years of points for a few months of maintenance and unlimited 4BRs each at half the price of a 1BR

I agree that in a situation like that, whether your 100M points cost $10K or $100K is irrelevant - all you had to do was buy, buy, buy until the house of cards came tumbling down.

Some of have to work a little harder to make a decent buy vs. rent decision. At the end of the day, everything comes down to assumptions and spreadsheets. Never commit yourself to long-term ownership if you aren't going to save money - just rent whatever you want whenever you want it at whatever the going price is at the time.

What I really need is someone to build a proxy reservation interface to allow me to check inventory without a Wyndham account - then the renting experience would approach the ownership experience. I'm going to try something similar for HICV to use as a model and then hopefully an IT savvy Wyndham owner can replicate the effort.

-Scott

I truly don't believe you can get the whole picture you need to make a decision based on numbers that show in theory the best value for the money. It isn't all about the money when you look at the variety of locations offered, the quality of the resorts and what the different resorts offer. You can make up a spreadsheet to put a dollar value to the points but you can't factor in everything about the individual resorts in each system on those spreadsheet numbers.

When our granddaughter was 3 and 4 we found we actually preferred staying at Star Island because they would always put is in one of the buildings close to the playground, mini golf and pool. It was great being able to walk right out the door to do those things or quickly get back to the unit when she got tired or hungry. We were so close to part of the mini golf course that several times I stood on our balcony talking to her and my husband so she could show and tell me what a good golfer she was. They were so close that I was able to take great pictures and videos of them to send our son and DIL. The playground wasn't quite as close but still close enough that I could easily see her from the balcony and we could let her run ahead of us a little when we took her to it. They redid the playground at Star Island a few years ago and it and the one at Vacation Village at Parkway are the nicest playgrounds of any of the resorts we've stayed at anywhere we've gone even without her with us. The pool was less crowded at Star Island for us to keep an eye on her when she found another kid to play in the water with besides my husband, the big kid. He always seem to find another grandfather or dad standing close to where the kids were playing to talk to while the kids played in the water. By the time she was turning 5 having a farther walk to the different pools, the mini golf and the playground at Bonnet Creek wasn't as big of a deal. She was swimming well by then and she could easily handle an evening walk around the lake without having to be carried part of the way or having to take the stroller.

Another very important thing about Star Island is you can easily get two bedroom lock offs there and if you are VIP can easily upgrade the one bedroom suite to a two bedroom lock off. The lock offs at Star Island are different from the other resorts in that there are two double beds in the smaller side bedroom so with the two sofa beds you could actually sleep 10 people. Also the living room/kitchen with the sofa bed has a door that shuts in addition to the bedroom having a door that shuts. There is a decent size foyer so you can come and go without having to go through the living room/kitchen. The bathroom is in the middle of the foyer between the bedroom and living room/kitchen. The lock offs there function beautifully as a three bedroom for a whole lot less points than a three bedroom at Bonnet Creek even with an upgrade and anymore you aren't likely to get a one bedroom upgraded to a three bedroom at Bonnet Creek. But upgrades to the two bedroom lock offs at Star Island are quite still doable. Especially at peak times you can save a decent number of points by staying at Star Island over Bonnet Creek and many owners don't have a huge number of points to work with.

When I've stayed with my sister and BIL at HIVC Orange Lake we had even more of a walk than Bonnet Creek to do anything at the resort. Depending on where you stayed in that resort you would probably want to drive even without little ones. Plus you have to pay to play the mini golf there and when I was there three years ago it wasn't cheap. And lastly Orange Lake is a lot further from the Disney parks than Bonnet Creek and even Star Island is closer.

Looking at dollar values of purchasing or maintenance fees tells you absolutely nothing about any of this. And I've only mentioned 2 resorts in Wyndham and one resort with HIVC.

Another important thing to consider as many of us have attested to, once you start really seeing where all you can go with the timeshares most people want to do more than just go to Orlando for an expensive vacation with the Disney or Universal park passes or Myrtle Beach in the summer. Which system will give you the most options can end up being important. Most of us don't dream nearly big enough when we first start timesharing. Thread after thread is filled with posts from people who learned to dream bigger than they ever thought.

I just don't see the same rental potential for HIVC resorts. From looking at the resorts in HIVC they just don't have the resorts that offer anything all that special that resorts in other timeshare systems don't equal if not exceed and especially the variety of locations that you can get with Wyndham. That doesn't make me right just that I'm not seeing it and have no actual experience with HIVC rentals.

Edited to add that my perspective is not that of a Wyndham owner acquiring for the purpose of renting. Maybe other people can address if they are VIP and now have to use full points for rentals they used to be able to get with a discount and sometimes free upgrade if they are now only making a few dollars over the break even price after they figure the maintenance fees on the points used, the guest certificate fee, and possibly the PayPal and eBay fees. Also how many reservations do they typically make in relationship to how many actually rent. I know what the maintenance fees are at Orange Lake for a fixed week. It can be difficult to rent for profit using your week there and sometimes can be hard to even get enough to cover the mfs.

Not sure I understand if having HIVC points is the same thing and number of points as having a points week in RCI points.

 

[ronparise]

Not all of us get 3 years of points for a few months of maintenance and unlimited 4BRs each at half the price of a 1BR

I agree that in a situation like that, whether your 100M points cost $10K or $100K is irrelevant - all you had to do was buy, buy, buy until the house of cards came tumbling down.

Some of have to work a little harder to make a decent buy vs. rent decision. At the end of the day, everything comes down to assumptions and spreadsheets. Never commit yourself to long-term ownership if you aren't going to save money - just rent whatever you want whenever you want it at whatever the going price is at the time.

What I really need is someone to build a proxy reservation interface to allow me to check inventory without a Wyndham account - then the renting experience would approach the ownership experience. I'm going to try something similar for HICV to use as a model and then hopefully an IT savvy Wyndham owner can replicate the effort.

-Scott

When I was at my peak, I did very few rentals. I turned my accounts over to a guy who did and paid me $6/1000 points. My maintenance fee average was something like $5.50 so you can see my margins were pretty slim The few rentals I did were discounted reservations offered to Tuggers. and I passed my discounts through to them. I did do a fair number of reservations in New Orleans but there are no 2 or 4 bedrooms at Avenue Plaza or La Belle Maison for those super upgrades you mention

I made my money a little at a time on pretty big volume. and everything I bought was paid for with cash flow.


So Im not suggesting that $10000 or $100000 amounts to the same thing and I do agree that you have to be careful with your buying Its just that you dont have to get the best deal... a good deal is usually good enough

In fact the best deal on a small contract is probably a bad deal. Big contracts and small contracts all cost the same closing costs and transfer fee. You are buying for your own "special" reasons, Either you need a few more points to make the reservations you want to make, or you want to add another name to your account, or you want a "free" RCI account. Sure price is important but not the most important thing when you have a special need.


When I was buying I had a price per 1000 per year (over 5 years, I was targeting If my target was $6/1000 and the contract in question was a $5/1000 maintenance fee contract I would pay as much as $5/1000 That meant I was willing to pay more for the low mf contracts and less for high mfs...

But I would pay whatever I had to for a La Belle Maison and thats my point. If you see what you want open your wallet and pay for it

 

[Braindead]

On the HICV side, I used to purchase units as small as 45K, but due to closing costs, I established a minimum of 75K annual (150K biennial).

One of the things I've been trying to figure out is what a good equivalent points size on the Wyndham size is.

Here's my latest math:

75K HICV points = 106K Wyndham points based on RCI/DRI ratios (0.71 factor).

HICV Closing Costs = $300 ($150 deed prep + $50 county fees + $100 transfer fees)

Wyndham Closing Costs = $500 ($150 deed prep + $50 county fees + $300 transfer fees)

Assuming you want to keep closing costs / point consistent, larger closing costs = larger contract, so 106K x $500/$300 = 176K.

Closing costs are paid on both sides of the transaction - even if the seller pays them when you buy, you are getting closing costs instead of a discount.

Buying a Wyndham unit smaller than 176K annual (352K biennial) would be like buying a HICV unit smaller than 75K - something I did in the past but learned not to do in the future once I started fully taking into account transaction costs.

I've added to my detailed comparison chart:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uf6xo4XB9BRvK_4L7iUYqZaRTLwKVaP1Xno5ZyW-S-M/edit?usp=sharing

If anyone has experience with DRI, Mariott, Shell, Bluegreen, Hyatt, or Disney and can help fill out the chart for those systems let me know.

-Scott

I’m going back to how you started this thread with a few questions:
Why compare closing cost of different systems?
Is anyone really going to decide which system they want to own in based on closing cost?
Why would anyone buy 176k points based on your spreadsheet when they only want 105k points?
Are you saying they are fools with their money based on a spreadsheet?
Why bring up what Ron did in the past? How is that relevant to your spreadsheet?
Do you need a spreadsheet to show you that 5 100k contracts cost 5 times as much to close as a single 500k contract?

Do you have a spreadsheet to show the difference in your vehicles gas mileage as the weight of the passengers go up every 20 pounds?
Do you weigh different items at different restaurants and make a spreadsheet to see where you get the best value for your buck and base what place you eat at based on that spreadsheet?
You strike me as that kind of a guy and I wouldn’t want to be your spouse or kids.
I don’t know about everybody but I’m about spreadsheet out for awhile

 

[skotrla]

When I was at my peak, I did very few rentals. I turned my accounts over to a guy who did and paid me $6/1000 points. My maintenance fee average was something like $5.50 so you can see my margins were pretty slim The few rentals I did were discounted reservations offered to Tuggers. and I passed my discounts through to them. I did do a fair number of reservations in New Orleans but there are no 2 or 4 bedrooms at Avenue Plaza or La Belle Maison for those super upgrades you mention

I made my money a little at a time on pretty big volume. and everything I bought was paid for with cash flow.


So Im not suggesting that $10000 or $100000 amounts to the same thing and I do agree that you have to be careful with your buying Its just that you dont have to get the best deal... a good deal is usually good enough

In fact the best deal on a small contract is probably a bad deal. Big contracts and small contracts all cost the same closing costs and transfer fee. You are buying for your own "special" reasons, Either you need a few more points to make the reservations you want to make, or you want to add another name to your account, or you want a "free" RCI account. Sure price is important but not the most important thing when you have a special need.


When I was buying I had a price per 1000 per year (over 5 years, I was targeting If my target was $6/1000 and the contract in question was a $5/1000 maintenance fee contract I would pay as much as $5/1000 That meant I was willing to pay more for the low mf contracts and less for high mfs...

But I would pay whatever I had to for a La Belle Maison and thats my point. If you see what you want open your wallet and pay for it

My point is that contract size is an overlooked thing to consider - people focus on initial $/K and maintenance $/K, but contract size is important too due to future closing/transfer costs. What that minimum unit size is for a given person may vary, but taking into account how far the points will go and closing costs can help with the decision.

I would prioritize maintenance $/K, then contract size, and then initial $/K.

-Scott

 

[Jan M.]

With the changes that last year brought I would never suggest that anyone acquire Wyndham points to be able to rent. This wasn't even the first or second round of changes Wyndham has made and they were all made for the sole purpose of curtailing the big renters. It would be unrealistic to think that more changes that will hurt renting will come at some point within no more than the next five years based on the history of the previous changes. The changes of last year hurt the little guy doing a few rentals this time. If a person understands that the stories they've heard from other people who rent out Wyndham stays and how much they make on their rentals may no longer be as easy to do and are still willing to take a chance knowing it could cost money to carry and dump those extra points when it doesn't work out how they envisioned. Then that is their decision and their money to risk.

I like getting the best value for my money too. If I can stay at resorts I really like and have more options in the number of different locations I can stay at and it isn't costing me what I consider a huge amount more then I am willing to pay that extra. But we didn't own a timeshare when we were younger and money was still very tight. Back then there is no question that I would have wanted and needed to make sure I got the absolute best value. And I would have made the choice solely on best value even though I knew other timeshare systems might have had nicer resorts, more amenities at them or more locations. If owning and going where a family can afford makes the difference in being able to go at all or maybe even take a second vacation in a years time then that is absolutely the best thing for them. Vacations aren't something we do every day and if there is one thing timesharing soon teaches you is how much you and your family benefit from those vacations.

When you aren't in the position of having to watch everything you spend and can spend on what is important to you even then not everyone feels the same about what is important to them. Some people will spend twice the price of what I spend on our flights so they can fly first class on a 2-3 hour flight because it makes them feel special and they are on vacation. I cringe in horror at the mere thought of doing that but have no problem if it turns out that I am spending more to own in a timeshare system I like because I am spending my entire vacations at the resorts. We've flown quite a but our vacation flights have never been over 4.5 hours one way and for that length of time we don't care where we sit, when we board or if we are getting free drinks or snacks. We care about the price because we would rather spend money on doing fun activities or nice dinners out while we are on vacation or use it for another vacation. I would even rather slip some money to our son than "waste" it on a first class fare because I simply don't care about having that. But that doesn't make it wrong for someone who does care.

We also own points weeks in RCI and have stayed at some great HGVC resorts on Sanibel, Captiva and Marco Islands and in Stuart, FL too. We always chat with other people and end up talking to people who are owners the resort. At some point we ask what their maintenance fees are per week. The maintenance fees are higher than any of the resorts we own in RCI but we don't own HGVC level properties in those very desirable locations and peak winter weeks either. Many of the people we've talked with own multiple winter weeks, 4-10 weeks. With many of the people we've talked to their grown children and their families each take a turn coming down to spend a winter vacation on a beach in sunny Florida with mom and dad. They often own multiple weeks in the same unit so never have to move or if they don't are able to work it out that they only have to move once or maybe twice for longer stays. They come every year guaranteed to get their weeks instead of hunting for very hard to find reservations and getting lucky like I've done when we've stayed at those resorts. Maybe over the years they've made friends with the other owners who also come every year. I don't know about Stuart or Marco Island but I know that on Sanibel or Captiva they would likely be hard pressed to find a house, condo or apartment for a month or two in the winter that rented for what their maintenance fees are. And even if they could it might not be as nice, no one would be coming into clean, bringing fresh sheets and towels so they weren't doing that laundry, supplying them with paper and soap products, etc. Our discounted point reservations that I find in the last 2-5 weeks might cost me a third of what their maintenance fees are for a week but it might be two years before I luck out and find another stay at some of those resorts and then it may not even be for a peak winter week. Yes I get the better value but they have what is important to them and my better value won't ever get us what they have.

 

[skotrla]

I’m going back to how you started this thread with a few questions:
Why compare closing cost of different systems?
Is anyone really going to decide which system they want to own in based on closing cost?
Why would anyone buy 176k points based on your spreadsheet when they only want 105k points?
Are you saying they are fools with their money based on a spreadsheet?
Why bring up what Ron did in the past? How is that relevant to your spreadsheet?
Do you need a spreadsheet to show you that 5 100k contracts cost 5 times as much to close as a single 500k contract?

Do you have a spreadsheet to show the difference in your vehicles gas mileage as the weight of the passengers go up every 20 pounds?
Do you weigh different items at different restaurants and make a spreadsheet to see where you get the best value for your buck and base what place you eat at based on that spreadsheet?
You strike me as that kind of a guy and I wouldn’t want to be your spouse or kids.
I don’t know about everybody but I’m about spreadsheet out for awhile

We've previously established that 234K is the minimum points in an account to minimize the cost of the program fee - targeting a minimum contract size is no different. If you only need 100K points, then my 176K minimum contract and the 234K minimum account size to minimize the program fee are both irrelevant (also you probably are not at the right scale of use to make buying the best decision over renting).

I'm not suggesting buying one system or the other based on closing costs - I'm suggesting that minimum contract size for a buyer varies by the value of the points and the closing costs. For example, a hypothetical buyer current uses 100K RCI points every year on HICV reservations and 100K RCI points every year on Wyndham reservations, but he has realized that RCI availability is terrible and needs to get enough points in each system to make internal exchanges instead of external exchanges. Based on prior DRI/RCI work, the buyer needs 237K HICV points and 334K Wyndham points.

How many contracts should the buyer target? I know from HICV experience that 2-3 contracts (79K-119K average size) is a reasonable place to be. Based on the $500/$300=1.67 closing cost factor, the buyer should target 1.2-1.8 contracts for the Wyndham purchase (186K-278K average size). HICV only matters to someone who knows the currency like I do (like dollars to an American). To me, the Wyndham currency is pounds - I don't think in Wyndham terms, so I have to convert to a currency I know.

Conversions go in either direction based on your native currency - someone might say that 100K Wyndham points is a good contract size, so the conversion in the other direction says 43K HICV would be a comparable contract size taking into account closing costs and currency value.

My joke about Ron's past was that in the situation he was in, analysis didn't matter because the answer was always buy. It was hard to find a contract that he couldn't get value out of - if your business case call for buying 30M points per year, there's not enough units out there to be picky.

Anybody would choose 500K over 5x100K but would you pay $100 more for the 500K? $200? How do you set a target?

As I said earlier, there was no spreadsheet behind the closing cost discussion - the result from this thread was just added to a system comparison timeshare I started.

Spreadsheets are tools to show how assumptions affect results - the purpose is to use personal experience to make good assumptions and get actionable results. They also allow you to show your work, so that others who are looking for similar actionable results can look for errors and validate assumptions. If I had an application where a spreadsheet on food cost or passenger weight was going to give me actionable results that would save me thousands of dollars, then I would do that. I personally have no such use case.

As I've said before, every analysis I have done is selecting between two options that yield the same results (how many contracts? resale vs. retail? maintenance fee target?). Perhaps the confusions is due to the "currency conversions" I do - I think in terms of HICV points because that's what I know.

-Scott

 

[ronparise]

My joke about Ron's past was that in the situation he was in, analysis didn't matter because the answer was always buy. It was hard to find a contract that he couldn't get value out of - if your business case call for buying 30M points per year, there's not enough units out there to be picky.



-Scott

Scott, I would argue that I had to be more careful about my costs that a typical buyer

The guy that is buying for his familiy's vacations can pay more for his points than I could because... How can you put a price on this

On the other hand I had to consider the market price for rentals I had to make a profit to feed my family


And buying 20 million points a year wasnt a problem but finding 20 million at my price was

 

[breezez]

Scott -

I am not sure I understand what your trying to analyze. I think each person will have their own method to determine value and what makes sense to them.

Example I own WM it cost way more up front than Wyndham contracts when I bought it. Their resorts are not always as nice as Wyndham’s but they have awesome locations in areas I like to travel. Technically my credits last 3 years 1 month in their system as you can book 13 months out with credits about to expire. You can also rent your credits out if you get in a Jam and I can normally rent them out within 72 hours of posting them for rent and get basically what my MF were for them instantly.

So to me this is a value I could never have in Wyndham, but I like Wyndham resorts too. But I find it hard to use my Wyndham points up and the change to the credit pool really sucks making their program really hard for me to use. So for me I am considering unloading at least some if not all of my Wyndham points in near future.

I live in Florida and like doing a lot of 3 day weekend trips so I decided to get some RCI points contracts. RCI fees suck, but you can get a hell of a lot out of those points if you work them. I mean you could easily get 3-5 weeks of vacation for about $804 a year in MF’s. I have also found that I can typically use RCI points to rent vehicles on trips and actually save more than I paid for my points. So you can use points this way if you find you have more than can be used. But technically you can’t rent your points out to others i.e sell them and you can’t rent out RCI exchanges to others. So again this lacks flexibility.

 

[skotrla]

Scott, I would argue that I had to be more careful about my costs that a typical buyer

The guy that is buying for his familiy's vacations can pay more for his points than I could because... How can you put a price on this

On the other hand I had to consider the market price for rentals I had to make a profit to feed my family


And buying 20 million points a year wasnt a problem but finding 20 million at my price was

Did you have a minimum contract size that you went after based on your experience? As I've said before, I don't touch any HICV contracts under 75K based on what I've learned over the years.

If your strategy is more about steady-state annual use than churn or doing as much as you can before loopholes close, you can afford to be patient and accumulate over time - some years you might buy 1M and other years none, but you can afford to be choosier. If you are trying to buy 20M points/year, then you can try to buy the cheapest 20M points, but the volume will inherently require that the 20th million is more expensive than the first million.

-Scott

 

[skotrla]

Scott -

I am not sure I understand what your trying to analyze. I think each person will have their own method to determine value and what makes sense to them.

A buyer has determined that Wyndham points are useful to their vacation plans, and they have a target maintenance range in mind for a total purchase of 500K Wyndham points - what is the right contract size to minimize future closing costs and exit risks, but maximize available units? While a single 500K unit would be ideal, a low maintenance 500K unit in the right price range might only come along once a year. While 10x100K biennial units might be widely available and free, the closing cost exposure could be $5000 instead of $500.

For me the answer is 75K units for HICV (I've bought and sold several dozen units over the years) - I'm trying to translate that into something comparable for Wyndham units. I started off looking for Wyndham units that were 75K annual (150K biennial) or larger (applying same guidelines I use for HICV units), but I quickly realized that the currency was different and the closing costs were much higher, making the future closing costs and exit risks higher than I was comfortable with.

I have a set of assumptions that gets me to 176K - if anyone else is in a similar position, they might find the number and/or the methodology useful, and/or they might have other feedback/considerations that would be useful to me.

-Scott

 

[breezez]

A buyer has determined that Wyndham points are useful to their vacation plans, and they have a target maintenance range in mind for a total purchase of 500K Wyndham points - what is the right contract size to minimize future closing costs and exit risks, but maximize available units? While a single 500K unit would be ideal, a low maintenance 500K unit in the right price range might only come along once a year. While 10x100K biennial units might be widely available and free, the closing cost exposure could be $5000 instead of $500.

For me the answer is 75K units for HICV (I've bought and sold several dozen units over the years) - I'm trying to translate that into something comparable for Wyndham units. I started off looking for Wyndham units that were 75K annual (150K biennial) or larger (applying same guidelines I use for HICV units), but I quickly realized that the currency was different and the closing costs were much higher, making the future closing costs and exit risks higher than I was comfortable with.

I have a set of assumptions that gets me to 176K - if anyone else is in a similar position, they might find the number and/or the methodology useful, and/or they might have other feedback/considerations that would be useful to me.

-Scott

I think you are kind of answering your own question: if a 5 100K contracts give you same points as 1 500K contract and both give you the amount of points you need for your travel desires. Then if future costs to exit are your concern it will always be cheaper on a closing side for the 500K account.

As time progresses and newer resorts come online the amount of points need for a stay increases for the newer resorts. I.e. the idea of 28K and 77K points for a week stay are already a thing of the past for new stuff. So my guess is that as time progresses it will get harder and harder to unload small r contracts unless you have one that is really desirable for ARP purposes to someone.

The other thing you also have to consider is in the world of timeshare what is true today will not always be true tomorrow. What is actual in your contract vice a policy or procedure they can manipulate or change, which they do all the time. Wyndham could announce tomorrow that transfers are now $1500 a contract vice $299 they charge currently. So the less contracts you hold the safer you are in the future to try and divest of them.

 

[paxsarah]

It's also possible that Wyndham will take 9 of the 10 biennial contracts via Ovation, $0 closing costs necessary, but there's no way of knowing that until exit time. I tend to be a data nerd, but this stuff is so granular it makes my eyes glaze over.

 

[skotrla]

It's also possible that Wyndham will take 9 of the 10 biennial contracts via Ovation, $0 closing costs necessary, but there's no way of knowing that until exit time. I tend to be a data nerd, but this stuff is so granular it makes my eyes glaze over.

Wow, and to think this my lightest data topic of the week!

-Scott