My Thoughts on the Safety of the Boeing 737 Max 8

[MULTIZ321]

My Thoughts on the Safety of the Beoing 737 Max 8
By Ajay/ Live From a Lounge/ livefromalounge.boardingarea.com

"Just yesterday, Ethiopian Airlines had an unfortunate crash of a Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft, shortly after takeoff from Addis Ababa, on its way to Nairobi. 157 people lost their lives, including 149 passengers and 8 crew in this tragic incident. This comes very close after Lion Air had a similar incident about 5 months ago, where another Boeing 737 MAX 8 aircraft crashed as well.

Now, I know that there is a huge amount of correlation between the nature of the two incidents, and the fact that both occurred on practically brand new aircraft. But the first piece of advice I’ve been giving everyone is not to speculate. In the times of social media, everyone becomes an expert on every issue, but that, unfortunately, is not the solution to our problems.

The Boeing 737 MAX is a redesigned version of the Boeing 737, which is the workhorse of many airlines globally. Over 10,000 Boeing 737 aircraft fly around the globe, and the aircraft has had a successful safety record.

The new aircraft, the Boeing 737 MAX, entered service in 2017. With newer technologies and design specs, and more fuel-efficient design, the aircraft could go further and spend less fuel while getting there. Which, in airline economics means, the path to the profitability of an airline/route. At the moment 350 of these aircraft are in service, with over 5,000 Boeing 737 MAX aircraft on order.

In India, SpiceJet and Jet Airways are the two Boeing customers for the 737 MAX range. SpiceJet has 205 on order, including their options, and Jet Airways has 225 on order....."

First delivery of 737 MAX to Jet Airways.


Richard

 

[clifffaith]

The noon news said Southwest uses the plane on several of its routes. Then they added that Southwest would not allow cancellations on those flights. I thought that was bad PR, at least until they have an idea of why the Ethiopian plane crashed.

 

[x3 skier]

I have zero fear of flying any US Major Airline regardless of the make and model. OTOH I would never fly Allegiant knowing what I know about their maintenance procedures and I’m getting a bit suspicious about Southwest.

The ability of third world and even first world foreign pilots is IMNSHO hit or miss and my personal assessment is lack of training and improper maintenance will be a part of the causes. With the unprecedented expansion of airlines around the world, I suspect the quality of people entering the system has failed to match the sophistication of the designs.

Cheers

 

[PigsDad]

The noon news said Southwest uses the plane on several of its routes. Then they added that Southwest would not allow cancellations on those flights. I thought that was bad PR, at least until they have an idea of why the Ethiopian plane crashed.

Southwest allows no-fee cancellation and/or change of any flight; that is one of the major benefits with Southwest. Terrible reporting on the news you were watching. What network was it?

Kurt

 

[Chrispee]

The ability of third world and even first world foreign pilots is IMNSHO hit or miss and my personal assessment is lack of training and improper maintenance will be a part of the causes.
Cheers

I agree with most of your sentiments, but do also believe there’s a fair chance this is a design/software flaw from Boeing. How can you possibly discount two very similar incidents less than six months apart on two new Max 8’s?

 

[dougp26364]

I keep thinking back to the 1971 Chicago crash of an AA DC 10, the reporting, the grounding of that fleet of planes, the blame and the eventual conclusion.

It’s important not to jump to conclusions. Irreprable damage can be done. But that’s human nature and with today’s social media it will be like a wildfire in dry conditions and high winds.

 

[AJCts411]

I agree that jumping to conclusions is unwarranted. However, when you have 2 new aircraft experiencing similar behaviors then the FAA should not take a wait and see approach. Out of the abundance of caution the MAX 8 planes should be grounded until there is some sort of understanding of the issues. Safety of the passengers life MUST be top priority over profits. Lip service from Boeing is far from protecting the safety of passengers.

 

[bluehende]

I am a little worried only about 1 thing. I want to believe our government in general and the FAA in particular are looking out for our best interest. I have a nagging thought that if it had been an Airbus plane in the same position would they be grounded in the US. I hope that is not the case.

 

[taterhed]

1. I can't seem to remember anybody 'grounding' Airbus despite the many crashes and failures....maybe on the 380?
2. God rest 'em, but flying on 3rd world airlines (and other low-end operations) is never a 'safe' bet. IMO
3. I have no idea what caused this. But, if it's the MCAS again.....then either the company AND the engineers AND the NTSB AND the entire airline industry completely missed the mark after the Lion crash. I find that to be astronomically unlikely.
4. If this is an identical repeat of the previous incident (pilots did NOT apply the correct procedure to recover the aircraft with MCAS/trim failure), then it will be a tragic example of why pilots are trained and paid to the extent they are.

I personally would not hesitate to fly on a 737 MAX, and would put my family on one as well.
Condolences to those lives lost....and hope for speedy resolution of this tragedy with a clear answer; Why?

 

[bogey21]

The noon news said Southwest uses the plane on several of its routes. Then they added that Southwest would not allow cancellations on those flights...

Before they got too big for their britches the old Southwest would have been the first to shut down the planes...

George

 

[PigsDad]

Before they got too big for their britches the old Southwest would have been the first to shut down the planes...

And you know this for a fact because... ??

Kurt

 

[Chrispee]

I personally would not hesitate to fly on a 737 MAX, and would put my family on one as well.

I agree, and I’m flying with my family on a Max 8 in less than three weeks. I do however believe there are enough similarities for concern between the two incidents. The fact that they both occured in near ideal weather conditions certainly raises the chance that a mechanical/software issue arose. Perhaps this coupled with pilot error in remedying the situation?

 

[buzglyd]

I have zero fear of flying any US Major Airline regardless of the make and model. OTOH I would never fly Allegiant knowing what I know about their maintenance procedures and I’m getting a bit suspicious about Southwest.

The ability of third world and even first world foreign pilots is IMNSHO hit or miss and my personal assessment is lack of training and improper maintenance will be a part of the causes. With the unprecedented expansion of airlines around the world, I suspect the quality of people entering the system has failed to match the sophistication of the designs.

Cheers

Exactly. The First Officer for Ethiopian had 200 hours of flight time. In the US, one needs 1500 hours of flight time to become a First Officer.

That being said, I think Boeing needs to rethink the anti-stall software.

 

[VacationForever]

The first thing I did after the Ethiopian Airlines crash was to check to make sure that I was not going to be on 737-Max8 on both my Southwest flights this week. I would not get on one until investigation is completed for this latest crash.

Both accidents were on new planes and shortly after takeoff. There is too much of a coincidence to not be concerned.

 

[moonstone]

DH's cousin who lives in England told us that the UK has banned the 737Max. Here's the article; https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47536502


~Diane

 

[MULTIZ321]

Should the Boeing MAX8 Be Grounded? The FAA changes lts Story.


https://www.thedailybeast.com/should-the-boeing-max-8-be-grounded-the-faa-changes-its-story.


Richard

 

[Pompey Family]

2. God rest 'em, but flying on 3rd world airlines (and other low-end operations) is never a 'safe' bet. IMO

Ethiopian Airlines is known as the Jewel in the Crown of African airlines, their fleet is one of the most modern in the world particularly when you consider that BA are still flying aircraft from the 70's. It's interessting to note that the country that has suffered the largest number of plane crashes and the largest number of fatalities is the US and I suspect you have no qualms about boarding an American based aircraft.

 

[VacationForever]

3. I have no idea what caused this. But, if it's the MCAS again.....then either the company AND the engineers AND the NTSB AND the entire airline industry completely missed the mark after the Lion crash. I find that to be astronomically unlikely.

You must have missed the news that in a rare move Boeing issued a safety bulletin to pilots in November directing them how to handle if the nose of the plane is automatically pushed down after the Lion crash.

Now Boeing is making software changes to 737-Max 8 to make it "more safe".

 

[MULTIZ321]

Airlines Are Making Scared Passengers Pay the Price to Avoid Flying on Boeing 737 MAX 8 Planes.


http://fortune.com/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-flight-change/

Richard

 

[DrQ]

I will wait until we get the information from the flight recorders.

It could be like the Airbus planes with their glass cockpit which had some human factors issues which training did not address. If the feel of the cockpit/controls between generations has differences, this can lead to pilot confusion during an emergency.

 

[Sapper]

Let's wait until the investigation is complete to point fingers. If you don't feel safe stepping onto the plane, don't. Take a different one.

 

[x3 skier]

I agree with most of your sentiments, but do also believe there’s a fair chance this is a design/software flaw from Boeing. How can you possibly discount two very similar incidents less than six months apart on two new Max 8’s?

First thing I do as a pilot if the airplane is doing something odd/unexpected is disconnect anything “automatic” like the autopilot, autothrottles, etc. Every plane I’ve flown has one or more switches to do that. I’ve never flown “big iron” but part of my preflight check list is to go thru the emergency “off” routine.

While there probably may be a hardware/software flaw, I still think this will involve some level of training and/or maintenance problems. I have read that one or two more similar instance of the MCAS unexpected activation may have been experienced in other 737 Max planes but pilot action to deactivate it prevented any mishaps. IMO, if this is true, it should have triggered an Airworthiness Directive to permanently deactivate the system until the root cause was determined and fixed. If it is really necessary to safely fly the plane, by all means ground them. I’m almost certain it isn’t required but I’m not privy to the design details of the aircraft.

Of course if anyone is concerned about flying on a 737 Max, they shouldn’t. I would if it was a US Airline but then I would never get in a Tesla (or any car for that matter) equipped with an autopilot since I don’t trust the “off” switch. Aircraft and pilots undergo a much more rigorous certification process than cars/drivers do although failure of either can have just as deadly result.

Cheers

 

[bogey21]

And you know this for a fact because... ??

I live in the past. Herb Kelleher would have handled differently. He always put passengers first...

George

 

[bogey21]

I agree with most of your sentiments, but do also believe there’s a fair chance this is a design/software flaw from Boeing. How can you possibly discount two very similar incidents less than six months apart on two new Max 8’s?

This kind of reminds me of back when the Lockheed Electras were crashing in the 50s. I don't think they ever did figure out the cause. My recollection is that they just slowed them down and the crashes stopped...

George

 

[Talent312]

This kind of reminds me of back when the Lockheed Electras were crashing in the 50s. I don't think they ever did figure out the cause...

Per Wikipedia:
Three aircraft were lost in fatal accidents between February 1959 and March 1960. After the third crash, the FAA limited the Electra's speed until the cause could be determined.

After an extensive investigation, two of the crashes were found to be caused by an engine mount problem. The mounts were not strong enough to damp a phenomenon called "whirl mode flutter"... When the oscillation was transmitted to the wings and the flutter frequency decreased to a point where it was resonant with the outer wing panels, violent up-and-down oscillation increased until the wings would tear off...

The company implemented an expensive modification program in which...

.