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timeos2

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Re: Same boat new captain

PerryM said:
Many 2BR units are now rented with just the scrap lock-offs dumped into the exchange companies for hopefully an upgrade back to a 2BR unit. As it gets easier and easier to rent via the Internet, this is just going to escalate. Join the crown and get all the high demand holiday weeks you want in a 2BR on the rental sites.
Perry - You may have hit on one of the biggest reasons the choices in weeks trades have become so much less desireable. As owners figure out how to maximize value they are using the better units and times for PFD, rentals, SFX or other ways they can be reasonably certain of getting a fair trade. Meanwhile the 1BR, offseason and lockoffs get dumped on II & RCI since, like Joey, they eat anything. The all you eat exchangers can only exchange what they get and more and more that is the dregs I'm guessing. So besides the fact that the cream is going to other places by owners choice and some is being used by RCI/II as rental there is no surprise that whats left isn't the easy trade up it used to be to get a 2 bedroo for that offseason unit or a studio/1 bedroom. The systems are evolving and owners had better adapt as well.
 

AwayWeGo

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[triennial - points]
Juicy Holiday Weeks.

PerryM said:
Lock in a juicy holiday week and rent for 3-5 times the MF and you can then rent a bunch of those cheap RCI Gold Crowns.
Great idea -- rent'm out high for the holidays & use the proceeds to rent somebody else's off-peak timeshare, or take an RCI Instant Exchange or Last Call bargain. Makes sense to me.

So, which are the juicy holiday weeks? Any holiday? Just certain 1s? Christmas? New Year? MLK Day? Valentine's Day? George Washington's Birthday? Easter? Mother's Day? Memorial Day? Father's Day? Independence Day? Labor Day? Columbus Day? Halloween? Veterans Day? Thanksgiving?

Shucks, maybe we could pay ahead on our timeshare fees, lock in a juicy 2007 or 2008 holiday week, & get in on some of this.

-- Alan Cole, McLean (Fairfax County), Virginia, USA.​
 

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Morphing the timeshare

AwayWeGo,

Using your timeshare for creative purposes is one of the great attributes of timeshare ownership. Using one’s timeshare portfolio to vacation at places and ways that might not be contained within those timeshares is part of the fun for me.

Owning a timeshare week (or points/credits in a club) is the “base” use which we use for many a nice vacation but renting out the same unit for cash and then enjoying totally different vacations is, to me, the thrill of timeshare ownership.

If RCI has something that fits into our vacation plans and wants to compete in the motel/hotel arena, I’m happy to exploit RCI and rent their unit.

Renting out your unit opens a whole different universe of vacation options that RCI and II just can’t offer. Cash is king. My observation of the stuff I see in II and RCI has me looking elsewhere for our family vacations.
 
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bogey21

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Gadabout said:
As long as the prices stay comparable, I would agree.

But throw in any large price difference, as well as Location of TS vs. hotel (car rental or taxi fares can add up), or even just the particular need of the traveller--which in many cases is "a place to leave my stuff, shower, and to sleep for a few hours when I'm not out sightseeing" and the TS can still lose out to even a not-so-great hotel (amenities-wise, that is). And if companies ever start charging per person for TS (for towels, etc.) that will also make them less desirable.

I agree. This is similar to my selection of motels. Give me a clean, well located Motel 6 anytime and I can save $40 - $50 per night and get everything I need including ice and dial-up internet access.

GEORGE
 

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Re: Same boat new captain

The stand-alone exchange companies have actually had quite a good track record for exchangers. RCI had a great one back when it was a stand alone company. Its when the conglomerates, like Cendant, take over that exchangers have problems.

We haven't seen the independents playing games, and I don't think we will.


PerryM said:
Of course, relying on any company to arrange an exchange places oneself in exactly the same position we face with II and RCI – we agree to their rules and regulations, even if one of them is to willy-nilly change them to maximize their stockholders profits.

The best way to exchange, at free market rates, is to simply rent your unit. Granted you have to declare the rental income but the cash you get can be used anyway you want. Lock in a juicy holiday week and rent for 3-5 times the MF and you can then rent a bunch of those cheap RCI Gold Crowns.

One of RCI problems with renting is their cross contamination from Cendant’s hotel group. (Link: http://www.cendant.com/about-cendant/travel-content/hospitality-services/hotel-group.html) Renting a 7-day timeshare reservation is best done to the timeshare audience that frequents RedWeek, MyResortNetwork and VRBO.

RCI is discounting their rental fees since they seem to want to compete in the hotel arena where folks rent for 3 days max over the weekend. It doesn’t take an Einstein to figure out that they have to sell at half price to attract the 3-day renter. If RCI had half a brain they would buy RedWeek and take it over with their timeshare rentals and charge double or triple what they charge now.

The evil renter:
I know that many an owner is ticked at us renters who lock in holiday weeks and rent them out for big bucks. I don’t view it that way at all. This is how I exchange my timeshare for another timeshare and we go on fantastic vacations. I additionally have the option of renting many units, combine the sales, and take a much fancier vacation that none of the timeshares could ever exchange into.

Many 2BR units are now rented with just the scrap lock-offs dumped into the exchange companies for hopefully an upgrade back to a 2BR unit. As it gets easier and easier to rent via the Internet, this is just going to escalate. Join the crown and get all the high demand holiday weeks you want in a 2BR on the rental sites.
 

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Re: Same boat new captain

Did you forget that Bootleg did locate those good weeks in the RCI system, and they were in RCI's rental pool?


timeos2 said:
Perry - You may have hit on one of the biggest reasons the choices in weeks trades have become so much less desireable. As owners figure out how to maximize value they are using the better units and times for PFD, rentals, SFX or other ways they can be reasonably certain of getting a fair trade. Meanwhile the 1BR, offseason and lockoffs get dumped on II & RCI since, like Joey, they eat anything. The all you eat exchangers can only exchange what they get and more and more that is the dregs I'm guessing. So besides the fact that the cream is going to other places by owners choice and some is being used by RCI/II as rental there is no surprise that whats left isn't the easy trade up it used to be to get a 2 bedroo for that offseason unit or a studio/1 bedroom. The systems are evolving and owners had better adapt as well.
 

"Roger"

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Re: Same boat new captain

Carolinian said:
The stand-alone exchange companies have actually had quite a good track record for exchangers. RCI had a great one back when it was a stand alone company....
When I joined TUG the oft quoted figure on this board was that only about 75% of those who deposited with RCI ever got any exchange at all.
 

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Re: Same boat new captain

Roger said:
When I joined TUG the oft quoted figure on this board was that only about 75% of those who deposited with RCI ever got any exchange at all.

That statistic must have included folks that deposited and never looked for an exchange.
 

"Roger"

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Probably. It still is not what I would call a "great" record. How many people deposit with the independents and never look for an exchange?
 

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exchange stats

Roger said:
When I joined TUG the oft quoted figure on this board was that only about 75% of those who deposited with RCI ever got any exchange at all.

I think this is misleading - many times people turn down an exchange that is offered for any number of reasons. And yes, sometimes people deposit and forget about it.

Often I'll see people saying that they won't get a vacation at all, but that's not really true - they may not get exactly what they want, but certainly have the opportunity to take a week.
 

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I am baffled by what is going on here. When someone posts (and I never have) that RCI claims to have a 95% success rate in securing exchanges (a number currently touted by RCI), a number of posters (correctly in my opinion) chime in, "Yeah, but a lot of these people ended up taking what they considered undesirable exchanges."

When I post what had been a number circulating on TUG in the mid-nineties (only about 75% of people who deposit ever received any exchange) this number is misleading because it is the people themselves who are at fault.

I'll just make the point that I was trying to make and bow out of this thread: Whatever the failings of RCI currently (and there are many), we shouldn't try to glorify the old days and say everything was fine then. In the mid-90's, the reputation of timesharing was in the gutter and the frustration people had getting exchanges had a lot to do with it. Let's not mythologize the past.

JMHO
 

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I'm sorry, Roger, I did not intend to insult you. :eek: It just hadn't been mentioned yet in this thread and so I did.

I wouldn't say it's the fault of the people, necessarily; more that expectations and reality fail to match up. That's a fault on both sides, and let's not forget the developers play a huge part in creating owner expectations.

My point was that I can arrange the facts to fit the percentage I'd like to float. I would be interested in % happy customers of their entire Weeks base; % happy customers of their entire Points base but I'll never get the facts on that. How much of their entire membership base always gets exactly what they want (excluding the "Anywhere but home!" population)? How many have had to "settle"? How many gave up because there was NO EXCHANGE AVAILABLE and how many gave up because there was NO EXCHANGE THEY WANTED AVAILABLE?

And then, of those in the latter category, how many specified less than 5 "suitable resorts" or less than 5 suitable dates and put in an ongoing search over a year in advance?
 

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Haning said that I would disappear, I will reappear just long enough to clarify that I did not feel insulted... just puzzled. I pretty much agree with everything that you said in your last post.
 

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geekette said:
I'm sorry, Roger, I did not intend to insult you. :eek: It just hadn't been mentioned yet in this thread and so I did.

I wouldn't say it's the fault of the people, necessarily; more that expectations and reality fail to match up. That's a fault on both sides, and let's not forget the developers play a huge part in creating owner expectations.

My point was that I can arrange the facts to fit the percentage I'd like to float. I would be interested in % happy customers of their entire Weeks base; % happy customers of their entire Points base but I'll never get the facts on that. How much of their entire membership base always gets exactly what they want (excluding the "Anywhere but home!" population)? How many have had to "settle"? How many gave up because there was NO EXCHANGE AVAILABLE and how many gave up because there was NO EXCHANGE THEY WANTED AVAILABLE?

And then, of those in the latter category, how many specified less than 5 "suitable resorts" or less than 5 suitable dates and put in an ongoing search over a year in advance?

For those who consider anecdotes as proof (i.e., those who believe that universally applicable extrapolations can be made from the experiences of a limited group of exchangers or from activities involving resorts in one geographic area), I offer the following illustration.

My best friend and his wife have been involved in timesharing for probably 15 years, starting when his children were small. He owns prime weeks at Wapato in Washington and McCall in Idaho.

For years they were frustrated with the old weeks exchange system, feeling that they were seldom able to get trades that were comparable to what they were giving up, and often having to wait a long time to get trades to areas they wanted to visit. They were totally ordinary timeshare owners, not aware of any other resource such as TUG. They owned their units, they paid their annual fees when due, they owned at resorts they visited regularly, and they also wanted to trade at times to visit new areas or create special family vacations, They were pretty disillusioned with timesharing.

When they were offered the opportunity to convert to RCI Points they decided to try it. Now they are totally sastisfied with timesharing. They are able to plan in advance. Due to changes in family circumstances, they have had fewer opportunities to take family vacations, and when they do have opportunities those happen to be in peak demand periods.

Before converting to points they couldn't even get an exchange into places they wanted to visit for those trips, and had to settle for a vacation in a place they really didn't want to go to. With points they are able to combine weeks from a couple of years (which is no burden since with fewer vacation opportunities they were finding it harder to use all of their weeks) and have enough points to secure reservations in places they want to visit, at resorts they would like to stay at, and to do so far enough in advance to coordinate travel plans and schedules.

My friend cannot fathom why I haven't converted to Points. To him it's all about flexibility. He now has flexibility in spades.
 
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timeos2

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T_R_Oglodyte said:
For years they were frustrated with the old weeks exchange system, feeling that they were seldom able to get trades that were comparable to what they were giving up, and often having to wait a long time to get trades to areas they wanted to visit. They were totally ordinary timeshare owners, not aware of any other resource such as TUG. They owned their units, they paid their annual fees when due, they owned at resorts they visited regularly, and they also wanted to trade at times to visit new areas or create special family vacations, They were pretty disillusioned with timesharing.

That is so typical of most owners, not the few who knew how the play the weeks game. It is those few that look back on the old days as the golden years. Most others would find they would be happier in RCI Points or another points based system that has far less chance and luck involved n making desireable trades.
 

rickandcindy23

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With Al Gore's internet invention, :p playing the weeks timeshare game has been made easier. As soon as I logged onto rci's website years ago, I cannot remember when that was, my weeks ownership became fascinating. A new world of vacation opportunities opened up to me. I cannot believe the luxury of looking at my leisure without making that awful call to a VC. Requesting over the phone and taking whatever they would give was getting old.

We have supertraders with RCI and I love to test our trade power when sightings are posted here on TUG. When my summer rotating weeks are FULL RED and not the weeks that are in September (supposedly red), I can pull everything.

As I said before, the exchange fee increase is only another $15.00 so I will pay it. I look at it this way: Our weeks at Val Chatelle cost us $440 MF for red, $420 for blue, we own four weeks. with our exchange fees, the most we will pay is $604 for our weeks. What do I get with that? Anything my heart desires for now. We get Orlando trades, anytime of the year we want, at GC resorts. If I find a week that is cheaper to use with points (very difficult since the points increases in January), I can bank 45,500 points for my MF's and get what I need. Marriott's Cypress Harbour is on RCI as a regular resort for 38,000 points, so I save a little by using my points, plus I only have to pay $99 for that exchange. If our kids want to use the weeks, no more Guest Certificates for points because they are all listed on our account. It works out well for us. I am amazed at what I can get with points.

As far as Hawaii goes, Points has more availability, but I have been able to get weeks trades for many years now, so Points just does not make sense. But if I did choose to use points, the cost to me would not be much more than the owners pay for their maintenance fees, so I would probably acquiesce, if I had to.

I have only figured out how to really take advantage of RCI opportunities because of TUG. This membership is the best thing I ever purchased. Sightings is worth the money alone, then you have all the great advice from experts here. I love this site. :)
 

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Re: RCI's goose

RonaldCol said:
Perry, very good analysis, but ...


RCI Weeks then conjured up the RCI Points. This was an out for the dilemma that would eventually confront RCI Weeks: an abundance of studios and a lack of multiple bedroom units. A lack of appealing weeks for exchange feeds on itself: no inclination to deposit weeks, be they multiple bedroom units OR even studios.

My opinion is that RCI created their points program to compete with the resort developers mini internal exchange systems and point programs. The flexibility to trade for a variety of uses shakes the foundation of the weeks for weeks programs.

I believe the other motivation was to provide value to the resort developers who could drive revenue from existing owners as they paid large fees to convert. This would provide incentive for a developer to affiliate with RCI versus any alternative that didn't provide the same value.

I do NOT believe they had any "sinister" secret motivations.
 

timeos2

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Re: RCI's goose

CraigU said:
My opinion is that RCI created their points program to compete with the resort developers mini internal exchange systems and point programs. The flexibility to trade for a variety of uses shakes the foundation of the weeks for weeks programs.

I believe the other motivation was to provide value to the resort developers who could drive revenue from existing owners as they paid large fees to convert. This would provide incentive for a developer to affiliate with RCI versus any alternative that didn't provide the same value.

I do NOT believe they had any "sinister" secret motivations.

Craig - As usual you provide a reasoned and useful analysis. Your thoughts make perfect sense and are much more believeable than the multiple conspiricy theories banished about so often. RCI, and every other business, makes decisions to remain competitive in a changing environment not some sinister plot to undermine owners, resorts, etc. Thank you.
 

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Craig,

You're probably right about a lack of sinister motivation when RCI Points was originally created. But, at a minimum, there is an appearance of wrongdoing in the way they've implemented it. The biggest known example was the time that Walt uncovered MANY MANY Embassy Maui weeks at Snap Travel. After Embassy confirmed that the weeks were not developer inventory deposited for rental purposes, RCI's excuse was along the lines of:

... although these particular Embassy weeks may not have been used for points partner transactions, they were "equal" to other weeks used for PP transactions that their members wanted more .... therefore, the Embassy weeks were moved to the rental pool and the original "oh so desirable" weeks were left in the exchange pool ...

I might have actually believed that explanation if there were 2 or 3 Embassy weeks moved to the rental pool, but there were hundreds, if I remember correctly. I'm gullible, but not that gullible!

Bottom line: Some believe that RCI has not been fair and balanced in their implementation of the points program, despite any original intention to meet member need.

I can fully understand why some love RCI Points and make the most of it. That's fine, as long as they're prepared to accept the risk that they'll be on the other side of the unfair treatment someday. My philosophy has always been, "if they're messing with the "other guy" today, it's only a matter of time until they're messing with me too."
 

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jerseygirl said:
Craig,

You're probably right about a lack of sinister motivation when RCI Points was originally created. But, at a minimum, there is an appearance of wrongdoing in the way they've implemented it. The biggest known example was the time that Walt uncovered MANY MANY Embassy Maui weeks at Snap Travel. After Embassy confirmed that the weeks were not developer inventory deposited for rental purposes, RCI's excuse was along the lines of:

I understand how people may perceive the "appearance" of wrong doing. However, I would bet examples such as these are nothing more than a mistake at best.

My understanding is the original RCI system was built on a mainframe legacy system. While this may have had benefits in the past, they probably have had to add systems as the data structure and scalability (sp?) required for the web probably could not be supported. In addition, they have interfaces with many different entities within their own organization and external companies .

My opionion is they inadvertently created "inventory silos" that require manipulation to transfer weeks from program to program. The complexiity of which could never be imagined unless we were fortunate enough to internally watch the development over time. I doubt even they have anyone who truly understands every nuance of their systems integration.

Therefore, my assumption about these types of examples is that they weren't aware a glitch has occurred until it was reported. This would explain why it was rectified afterwards.
 

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I never heard that they rectified the Embassy situation, but will gladly stand corrected if something happened that I have not heard about.

As I understood it, they raised the rental rates (to ~$1200/$1300, I think) when Embassy owners screamed loudly that the rental price (originally ~$699, I think) was lower than the maintenance fees. But, they didn't pull the weeks from the rental pool and put them back in the exchange pool, where many would argue they belonged. That form of rectification simply added more money to RCI's pocket -- it didn't help the owners or members ... or even the renting public!

I do agree that they have made progress toward rectifying the unfair "generic points grid for weeks exchanges" situation. There is still room for improvement, but it's a heck of a lot better than it used to be (back in the days when a Gold Crown points owner in Orlando could trade his/her one week in an inflated points resort for two weeks at Orange Lake. a non-points resort ... just one example of the unfairness of the past).

Craig, please don't tell us that your defense of RCI means you're thinking of going to work for them now that your non-compete clause is up?! Just kidding .... sort of!!! :) Actually, that would probably be a great thing ... I'm still a major fan of II, and I think you probably had a lot to do with building that company! (Although, they don't seem to be as generous with ACs as they used to be ... do you have any friends who can fix that? :D )
 

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jerseygirl said:
ICraig, please don't tell us that your defense of RCI means you're thinking of going to work for them now that your non-compete clause is up?! Just kidding .... sort of!!! :) Actually, that would probably be a great thing ... I'm still a major fan of II, and I think you probably had a lot to do with building that company! (Although, they don't seem to be as generous with ACs as they used to be ... do you have any friends who can fix that? :D )


I have always wondered if II realized the impact Craig made on TUG. When Craig first came to TUG I did not care for II and felt that they were far inferior to RCI. After Craig came to TUG and provided much needed answers to our questions, I decided to test the II waters with a cheapie studio deposit and then moved on to purchase another II week and have been a ever member since. Today, I can't imagine not being a member of II. Craig's professionalism spoke volumes for II.
 

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CraigU said:
I understand how people may perceive the "appearance" of wrong doing. However, I would bet examples such as these are nothing more than a mistake at best.

My understanding is the original RCI system was built on a mainframe legacy system. While this may have had benefits in the past, they probably have had to add systems as the data structure and scalability (sp?) required for the web probably could not be supported. In addition, they have interfaces with many different entities within their own organization and external companies .

My opionion is they inadvertently created "inventory silos" that require manipulation to transfer weeks from program to program. The complexiity of which could never be imagined unless we were fortunate enough to internally watch the development over time. I doubt even they have anyone who truly understands every nuance of their systems integration.

Therefore, my assumption about these types of examples is that they weren't aware a glitch has occurred until it was reported. This would explain why it was rectified afterwards.
That's the old bromide that you should never attribute to intelligence actions that can be as easily explained by incompetence.
 

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jerseygirl said:
Craig, please don't tell us that your defense of RCI means you're thinking of going to work for them now that your non-compete clause is up?! Just kidding .... sort of!!! :) Actually, that would probably be a great thing ... I'm still a major fan of II, and I think you probably had a lot to do with building that company! (Although, they don't seem to be as generous with ACs as they used to be ... do you have any friends who can fix that? :D )

LOL....no, I have no intention of working for RCI. There were many instances where I could have explained what I believed they were doing and addressed misperceptions. However, at that time, I didn't think I should help a competitor.

The challenge with RCI is they made the mistake of not retaining the employees who built the system and the bureaucracy took over without enough individuals knowledgable and empowered to proactively resolve issues. The same thing happens to every company that makes the same mistake. Unfortunately, they usually don't realize the damage thats been done until its too late.

Having said that, my non-compete expired in February of this year so I could work for RCI or anyone else for that matter. :whoopie: For the time being, I will continue building my own company so hopefully you will se my artificial trees, plants and flowers in all of the hospitality projects you visit.
 

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Apologies for going off topic for a moment but Craig with you being in South Florida, did you get any business from The Atlantis. If not they have just started Phase III you might want to make some calls. I'm pretty sure their corporate office is somewhere in your neighborhood.

Another heads up, the other major development here in Nassau, Bahamar is also getting started.
 
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