• The TUGBBS forums are completely free and open to the public and exist as the absolute best place for owners to get help and advice about their timeshares for more than 30 years!

    Join Tens of Thousands of other Owners just like you here to get any and all Timeshare questions answered 24 hours a day!
  • TUG started 30 years ago in October 1993 as a group of regular Timeshare owners just like you!

    Read about our 30th anniversary: Happy 30th Birthday TUG!
  • TUG has a YouTube Channel to produce weekly short informative videos on popular Timeshare topics!

    Free memberships for every 50 subscribers!

    Visit TUG on Youtube!
  • TUG has now saved timeshare owners more than $21,000,000 dollars just by finding us in time to rescind a new Timeshare purchase! A truly incredible milestone!

    Read more here: TUG saves owners more than $21 Million dollars
  • Sign up to get the TUG Newsletter for free!

    60,000+ subscribing owners! A weekly recap of the best Timeshare resort reviews and the most popular topics discussed by owners!
  • Our official "end my sales presentation early" T-shirts are available again! Also come with the option for a free membership extension with purchase to offset the cost!

    All T-shirt options here!
  • A few of the most common links here on the forums for newbies and guests!

New Resale Restrictions - now confirmed by DVC

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,779
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
Hmmmm. This type of restriction is something that some Marriott sales reps have been threatening new Destination Club Points buyers with almost since the day Marriott introduced its points system (6/20/10) but as yet, it hasn't been implemented. We'll have to watch closely now that DVC has joined the ranks because the DC governing docs certainly allow for it. Grrrrrrrr.
 

TravelTime

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,093
Reaction score
6,460
Points
499
Location
California
Resorts Owned
All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara

The actual announcement to current DVC owners did not say anything about how Riviera will be limited for resale. It only said that the resale buyers of the 14 original resorts will not be able to trade into new resorts if purchased after Jan 19. As I understand, the DVC Guides are telling people that Riviera will have resale restrictions. The first link you posted is the actual notification that DVC released. If you re-read it, you will see what I mean. I am assuming the the Guides are releasing accurate information. I spoke to a Guide and he confirmed the Riviera resale restriction. I was also told that a large price increase will be announced on Jan 16 for the existing 14 resorts.
 
Last edited:

ljmiii

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
2,063
Reaction score
1,207
Points
523
Location
NY, NY
Hmmmm. This type of restriction is something that some Marriott sales reps have been threatening new Destination Club Points buyers with almost since the day Marriott introduced its points system (6/20/10) but as yet, it hasn't been implemented. We'll have to watch closely now that DVC has joined the ranks because the DC governing docs certainly allow for it. Grrrrrrrr.
I'm not sure I understand. DPs aren't tied to any location - they are all itty-bitty portions of the overall Trust. (Which I know you know...I just don't understand what you are getting at).

I more see DVC following in MVCI's footsteps. When MVCI announced the DP program I assumed (as did many others) that it would be like HGVC where points were immutably tied to weeks and 'points in equals points out'. HA! Instead MVCI created an money making machine. By stripping resale weeks of their DP value and heavily 'taxing' resale DPs, MVCI drove down the price of resale weeks and points thus allowing them to buy them cheaply and then resell them for full price. "ROFR then resale" is much more profitable than "Develop and sell".

DVC will now be able to do this with Riviera, Reflections, the other resorts they build before 2042, and then as contracts mature and get reissued with new language all the 'original 14' as well.
 

SueDonJ

Moderator
Joined
Jul 26, 2006
Messages
16,612
Reaction score
5,779
Points
1,249
Location
Massachusetts and Hilton Head Island
Resorts Owned
Marriott Barony Beach and SurfWatch
I'm not sure I understand. DPs aren't tied to any location - they are all itty-bitty portions of the overall Trust. (Which I know you know...I just don't understand what you are getting at).

I more see DVC following in MVCI's footsteps. When MVCI announced the DP program I assumed (as did many others) that it would be like HGVC where points were immutably tied to weeks and 'points in equals points out'. HA! Instead MVCI created an money making machine. By stripping resale weeks of their DP value and heavily 'taxing' resale DPs, MVCI drove down the price of resale weeks and points thus allowing them to buy them cheaply and then resell them for full price. "ROFR then resale" is much more profitable than "Develop and sell".

Years before Marriott's points system was implemented the rumors were all over the place and many of us were hopeful that it wouldn't be a completely separate system from existing Weeks, that it would provide some kind of internal exchange opportunity for those Weeks. I was among those who wanted that but fully expected it to come at a price, because why else would Marriott do it and II certainly comes at a price. The metric we use to determine whether there's value in enrolling Weeks is how our particular ownership exchange value in the DC compares to that from II, and for many of us Marriott's DC comes out ahead.

As for resale values and ROFR opportunities, Marriott had never guaranteed that they'd always exercise ROFR and thus prop up resale values, and they'd never prioritized protecting any resale values for owners over their bottom line. No doubt the DC introduction has had some impact on resale values but the primary reason it was introduced was because the Weeks system wasn't going to be sustainable forever, not with new development costs skyrocketing and low-usage-value unsold Weeks at existing resorts being a constant drag on Marriott. It sure didn't help that the years-long-rumored Marriott point system was coincidentally implemented during an economic downturn.

DVC will now be able to do this with Riviera, Reflections, the other resorts they build before 2042, and then as contracts mature and get reissued with new language all the 'original 14' as well.

The comparison I'm making between what DVC will now apparently be doing and what some Marriott sales reps have been claiming will be done but which isn't being done yet (although it's allowable based on the DC gov docs,) is restricting exchanges by resale owners among only certain resorts. Until now any resale DVC owners have been allowed to exchange throughout the entire system based on how many Points are owned and how many it costs for specific stays, with only home/away resort reservation windows and availability restrictions, so I'd say this new thing is certainly a drastic change.

Marriott DC members/owners deal with similar owned Points/reservation window/Points Chart requirements/availability restrictions. But since the Marriott DC inception the constant nonexistent threat is that any new properties brought onboard (whether ground-up development or via licensing) would be restricted to only those who purchased already-enrolled Weeks direct or Trust Points direct, or, only those who purchase Trust Points direct after the property is brought onboard. That hasn't been the case with any new properties but if/when Marriott implements any of these or any other resort-specific restrictions, I'll call that a drastic change, too. For now and hopefully continuing (although DVC's inroads here aren't a good harbinger) it's just something to think about and not something to deal with.
 
Last edited:

tschwa2

TUG Review Crew: Veteran
TUG Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
16,018
Reaction score
4,680
Points
748
Location
Maryland
Resorts Owned
A few in S and VA, a single resort in NC, MD, PA, and UT, plus Jamaica and the Bahamas
Although Marriott charges a lot to activate/transfer resale trust point they have been giving it all the perks of retail purchases. The other restrictions that they could easily implement (to encourage retail sales) would be to not allow resale to count toward status and to restrict or eliminate the transfer of one time use points (points rentals) between members. This would effect both resale, retail and enrolled members).
 

Crafty71

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2018
Messages
372
Reaction score
159
Points
153
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Smugglers Notch Resort (Wyndham); DVC Old Key West
Agreed, go see Dean's post. Your claim in bold is simply incorrect. The first round to expire in 2042 will include HHI, VB, BWV & BC. SSR doesn't expire until 2054 and OKW until 2057.
Only the OKW contracts that purchased the extension expire in 2057...most contracts did NOT purchase the extension and therefore expire in 2042...

I should know...I didn't purchase the extension when it was offered and have purchased several non-extended OKW contracts resale.

Cheers!
 

TravelTime

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,093
Reaction score
6,460
Points
499
Location
California
Resorts Owned
All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara
Only the OKW contracts that purchased the extension expire in 2057...most contracts did NOT purchase the extension and therefore expire in 2042...

I should know...I didn't purchase the extension when it was offered and have purchased several non-extended OKW contracts resale.

Cheers!

Just curious about the OKW extension. When was it offered and how much did it cost? Maybe they will do this with other DVC resorts. It would be nice to have that option. My resorts all expire in late 2050s and 2060s so I will probably be dead by then. But maybe someone in my family would like to take over our DVC membership. The nice thing is that transferring to family keeps the benefits grandfathered in.
 

Crafty71

TUG Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2018
Messages
372
Reaction score
159
Points
153
Location
Canada
Resorts Owned
Smugglers Notch Resort (Wyndham); DVC Old Key West
Just curious about the OKW extension. When was it offered and how much did it cost? Maybe they will do this with other DVC resorts. It would be nice to have that option. My resorts all expire in late 2050s and 2060s so I will probably be dead by then. But maybe someone in my family would like to take over our DVC membership. The nice thing is that transferring to family keeps the benefits grandfathered in.
Honestly...I cannot even remember when it was offered...it was THAT long ago...probably within the first ten (10) years of ownership, so early 2000s...

And I seem to remember that it didn't seem worth it to me (and I am a Disney fan).

Cheers!
 

TravelTime

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,093
Reaction score
6,460
Points
499
Location
California
Resorts Owned
All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara
So that is interesting that they planned ahead for OKW but then stopped offering extensions. Maybe they were not popular or they just changed direction.
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,962
Reaction score
3,617
Points
648
So that is interesting that they planned ahead for OKW but then stopped offering extensions. Maybe they were not popular or they just changed direction.
I think it was a trial balloon and it failed miserably. They may offer extensions at some point in some way, likely as a repurchase into the "new system". We'll see. The one thing that does is it takes away much of the issues that OKW members might have related to their extension.
 

TravelTime

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,093
Reaction score
6,460
Points
499
Location
California
Resorts Owned
All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara
I'm not sure I understand. DPs aren't tied to any location - they are all itty-bitty portions of the overall Trust. (Which I know you know...I just don't understand what you are getting at).

I more see DVC following in MVCI's footsteps. When MVCI announced the DP program I assumed (as did many others) that it would be like HGVC where points were immutably tied to weeks and 'points in equals points out'. HA! Instead MVCI created an money making machine. By stripping resale weeks of their DP value and heavily 'taxing' resale DPs, MVCI drove down the price of resale weeks and points thus allowing them to buy them cheaply and then resell them for full price. "ROFR then resale" is much more profitable than "Develop and sell".

DVC will now be able to do this with Riviera, Reflections, the other resorts they build before 2042, and then as contracts mature and get reissued with new language all the 'original 14' as well.

I was wondering the same thing since DVC is still tied to a specific home resort but MVC is a pure points program with no linkage (anymore).

I see the DVC changes more similar to Vistana than to MVC. It seems like the original 14 can be somewhat comparable to mandatory resorts in the Vistana system. Those have held more value than the voluntary resorts on the resale market, esp the platinum weeks that come with SOs resale. I suspect MVC will get rid of this system if they can do it legally. But probably grandfather in existing owners with the internal exchange benefits we have (I hope).

I think all these TS systems should try to keep their programs simple. They are already so complex that it is hard for newbies and folks who do not like details to understand how to use them. Sometimes that leads to unhappiness when owners say they can’t get researvations. This also gives timeshares a bad reputation. I have heard many people say it all sounds good at the presentation and then when you try to book, you can’t get what you were promised. I am not sure I agree since I have been able to get many difficult weeks and reservations but it is the perception. For many people, it is true since they do not understand the supply and demand issues of floating weeks and points systems.

Timeshares seem great for nerds and analytical people who are willing to learn the details and maximize the benefits. Then there are many people who just enjoy the pre-paid vacations and do not care about maximizing. I have met many people like that and, frankly, they are usually happier than me even though I probably get more value. Research says satisficers are happier than maximizers.
 

chalee94

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
1,049
Reaction score
151
Points
423
Location
NC
So that is interesting that they planned ahead for OKW but then stopped offering extensions. Maybe they were not popular or they just changed direction.

OKW extensions were offered around 2007-2008. I do not think that they planned ahead - some owners have dug in and claimed that DVC did not have a contractual right to charge for an extension, have refused to pay and have claimed that they expect a free extension. For most of us OKW owners, the offer was a waste of time: $25 per point (again 10 years ago - higher in todays dollars) for points that you would not start receiving for about 35 years.

They did offer a discount to $15 per pt if you acted early - but most of us figured we'd still rather buy a small resale with points we could use immediately instead of sending the same amount of money to Disney for a promise of far-future points. Resale prices after the extension confirmed that buyers were only willing to pay a premium of $6-8 per point for 2057 OKW over 2042 OKW.

In any event, OKW as a resort will not expire until 2057. The question is, how much of the resort will Disney own - at this stage, it is suspected that 60-70% of OKW is still in the hands of owners with 2042 contracts. 2042 owners have received assurances that Disney will not charge them capital costs that would benefit post-2042 owners but that is still uncertain. In any event, Disney may have a lot of OKW points in their hands in 2042 - which could be a lot to rent. But we'll see how it goes...
 

TravelTime

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,093
Reaction score
6,460
Points
499
Location
California
Resorts Owned
All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara
OKW extensions were offered around 2007-2008. I do not think that they planned ahead - some owners have dug in and claimed that DVC did not have a contractual right to charge for an extension, have refused to pay and have claimed that they expect a free extension. For most of us OKW owners, the offer was a waste of time: $25 per point (again 10 years ago - higher in todays dollars) for points that you would not start receiving for about 35 years.

They did offer a discount to $15 per pt if you acted early - but most of us figured we'd still rather buy a small resale with points we could use immediately instead of sending the same amount of money to Disney for a promise of far-future points. Resale prices after the extension confirmed that buyers were only willing to pay a premium of $6-8 per point for 2057 OKW over 2042 OKW.

In any event, OKW as a resort will not expire until 2057. The question is, how much of the resort will Disney own - at this stage, it is suspected that 60-70% of OKW is still in the hands of owners with 2042 contracts. 2042 owners have received assurances that Disney will not charge them capital costs that would benefit post-2042 owners but that is still uncertain. In any event, Disney may have a lot of OKW points in their hands in 2042 - which could be a lot to rent. But we'll see how it goes...

Why would OKW owners think they should get a free extension? OKW was the first DVC, is that correct? Maybe owners did not realize how successful DVC would become. $15 pp for an extension was a great deal.
 

Lisa P

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
416
Points
443
Location
NC
Resorts Owned
Club Wyndham Points
The actual announcement to current DVC owners did not say anything about how Riviera will be limited for resale. It only said that the resale buyers of the 14 original resorts will not be able to trade into new resorts if purchased after Jan 19. As I understand, the DVC Guides are telling people that Riviera will have resale restrictions. The first link you posted is the actual notification that DVC released. If you re-read it, you will see what I mean.
Yes, but it's not just the Guides. The second link posted says "In addition to this change, Disney also revealed that those who purchase points for future DVC Resorts from a reseller will be limited to using their points at their home resort. For example, if you purchase points from a resale broker for Disney’s Riviera Resort, you will be restricted to using your points at Disney’s Riviera Resort only, and you will be unable to use your points at any other DVC Resort."

The third link posted says, "Once sales for the Riviera Resort begin, those who purchase a contract for that resort on the resale market will be limited to staying only at that resort." They go on to elaborate.

This kind of restriction does not really imply that future resorts would be their own group, like a DVC2, but that they would be treated as isolated resort entities with developer points able to access additional affiliate privileges. Peculiar. If they treat access to other resorts as an extra benefit rather than as inherent to the system, they may remove extra benefits at will.
 

Lisa P

TUG Review Crew: Rookie
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
416
Points
443
Location
NC
Resorts Owned
Club Wyndham Points
OKW as a resort will not expire until 2057. The question is, how much of the resort will Disney own - at this stage, it is suspected that 60-70% of OKW is still in the hands of owners with 2042 contracts. ... Disney may have a lot of OKW points in their hands in 2042 - which could be a lot to rent.
I've often wondered what Disney could legally do, given how the OKW contracts are written. For example, could they say that the Miller Road and Hospitality House area buildings are staying intact after 2042, but bulldoze the buildings along Old Turtle Pond Road and South Point Road, to make way for a new development with its own entrance and higher density buildings? Just wondering.
 

TravelTime

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,093
Reaction score
6,460
Points
499
Location
California
Resorts Owned
All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara
Yes, but it's not just the Guides. The second link posted says "In addition to this change, Disney also revealed that those who purchase points for future DVC Resorts from a reseller will be limited to using their points at their home resort. For example, if you purchase points from a resale broker for Disney’s Riviera Resort, you will be restricted to using your points at Disney’s Riviera Resort only, and you will be unable to use your points at any other DVC Resort."

The third link posted says, "Once sales for the Riviera Resort begin, those who purchase a contract for that resort on the resale market will be limited to staying only at that resort." They go on to elaborate.

This kind of restriction does not really imply that future resorts would be their own group, like a DVC2, but that they would be treated as isolated resort entities with developer points able to access additional affiliate privileges. Peculiar. If they treat access to other resorts as an extra benefit rather than as inherent to the system, they may remove extra benefits at will.

Are those official announcements from Disney?

I believe this could be the case but I have not seen a formal Disney announcement yet. I asked an agency if it was formally announced by Disney and he said no.
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,962
Reaction score
3,617
Points
648
I've often wondered what Disney could legally do, given how the OKW contracts are written. For example, could they say that the Miller Road and Hospitality House area buildings are staying intact after 2042, but bulldoze the buildings along Old Turtle Pond Road and South Point Road, to make way for a new development with its own entrance and higher density buildings? Just wondering.
I don't think so. The entire resort was extended, it's just that DVD will own roughly half of it, possibly more at the current ownership percentages. They could close it down to part of the buildings but not take them out of the club. Members own a % of a "unit" which is a building at OKW, the only way they could take that building out of the system, even if they can at all, is to own 100% of the unit/building. Or they'd have to get the members to vote which I don't see DVC doing. I've been saying for some time that owning OKW on/after 2042 scares me in terms of usage and dues.
 

chalee94

TUG Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
1,049
Reaction score
151
Points
423
Location
NC
Why would OKW owners think they should get a free extension? OKW was the first DVC, is that correct? Maybe owners did not realize how successful DVC would become. $15 pp for an extension was a great deal.

OKW was the first but DVC had become pretty successful by the time the extension was offered.

If Disney put in the language of the original contracts that the purchaser had the right to use the timeshare until the end of the ground lease (originally 2042) and then later changed the expiration of the ground lease, I can see how some legal eagles might try to hold Disney to the original language. Disney tried to put a lien against owners who didn't pay up but it sounds like they still haven't actually tried to enforce it, leading some to suspect that they don't have a strong legal position. (I'm certain they changed the contract language for later resorts but that made some of us confident that no further extensions would be forthcoming at other resorts.) Many of us accepted the understanding that we were purchasing until expiration at 2042 and didn't care to argue the point (I won't likely be using OKW pts past 2041 myself) but if I had known how adversarial Disney would become towards their owners, I might have dug in...
 

luv2vacation

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Messages
1,006
Reaction score
1
Points
248
Location
South Jersey
We own a small 50 point contract that we bought a few years back (resale). Our home resort is Saratoga Springs. Been looking to pick up another small contract resale but not sure I understand the new rules.

If you buy resale now at, for instance, BLT, will you only be able to book at the currently open resorts (not any new that open after this date) or only at your home resort (BLT)?
 

TravelTime

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,093
Reaction score
6,460
Points
499
Location
California
Resorts Owned
All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara
We own a small 50 point contract that we bought a few years back (resale). Our home resort is Saratoga Springs. Been looking to pick up another small contract resale but not sure I understand the new rules.

If you buy resale now at, for instance, BLT, will you only be able to book at the currently open resorts (not any new that open after this date) or only at your home resort (BLT)?

You would be able to book at the original 14 resorts that exist as of today but no new resorts like Riviera or Reflections.
 

luv2vacation

TUG Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Messages
1,006
Reaction score
1
Points
248
Location
South Jersey
You would be able to book at the original 14 resorts that exist as of today but no new resorts like Riviera or Reflections.


Thank you. That’s what I thought when I first saw it but then got confused when I started reading some of the posts.
 

TravelTime

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,093
Reaction score
6,460
Points
499
Location
California
Resorts Owned
All Resale: MVC DPs, Marriott Ko Olina, Marriott Marbella, WKOVR-N, Four Seasons Aviara
Thank you. That’s what I thought when I first saw it but then got confused when I started reading some of the posts.

I think buying a resale contract of the original 14 is still good. From what I have learned on TUG, the POS indicates they can’t change the ability to exchange in the original 14. If that is true, then the original 14 will maintain their resale value and possibly increase.
 

capjak

TUG Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2006
Messages
1,685
Reaction score
272
Points
444
Location
US
Resorts Owned
DVC BC & SSR, Marriott GV+MVC Pts, WKORV & SVV, HGVC Flamingo
We own a small 50 point contract that we bought a few years back (resale). Our home resort is Saratoga Springs. Been looking to pick up another small contract resale but not sure I understand the new rules.

If you buy resale now at, for instance, BLT, will you only be able to book at the currently open resorts (not any new that open after this date) or only at your home resort (BLT)?

There is no change to what you will be able to book. Meaning you can book all of the 14 DVC currently open resorts, but any new future resorts you will not be able to book (the first you will not be able to book is Rivera).
 

Dean

TUG Review Crew
TUG Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2005
Messages
9,962
Reaction score
3,617
Points
648
There is no change to what you will be able to book. Meaning you can book all of the 14 DVC currently open resorts, but any new future resorts you will not be able to book (the first you will not be able to book is Rivera).
It might be worth waiting a few months before committing. The restrictions that have just gone into effect depleted the available resorts to a degree and it's possible we'll see some pullback in prices after the new resorts are in active sales. Unless I were looking for something difficult where availability was more than price like VGF, VGC or a specific but uncommon size, I'd wait. That would also give one the chance to evaluate Riviera since there are more uncertainties there than any new resort in DVC history after OKW.
 
Top